Helicopter Camera Information Request
 

Esteemed Colleagues,

I am currently looking for information in the area of heli-borne camera systems.

I have searched the www without much success and was hoping that I could get some pointers here.

A link to companies that currently manufacture and distribute self contained systems used by police or other EMS helicopter operators would be most helpful.


Thanks in advance!

Gibbo

Most Law Enforcement Agencies in the U.S. use Wescam.

FLIR Systems, South Africa.

FLIR Systems provide the kit for most if not all UK police units + Coastguard SAR S61s and also the UK military for surveillance and soon to be SAR (I think).
Their UK website is:

www.flir-systems.co.uk

*** Flir System ***
 

HI,

WHAT IS THE ADVANTAGE OF USING THE FLIR SYSTEM IN THE HELICOPTER ..??

(PLS IF SOMEONE CAN PUT THEM AS A LIST FOR ME A.S.A.P)

:{

Open ended question -
Advantage of the FLIR over what?
What mission are you thinking of?

I'll assume it's for an observation mission of some sort - and the answer is that it turns night into day for the person using the FLIR. Not so much of an advantage in daylight (although it is useful for finding hot things like bodies hiding in shrubbery), and not so very good at all in rain (at least the ones I've seen).
Not very good for direct flying, unless you can control where the FLIR looks automatically with your head (like the Apache).
In fact, for observation missions without being hooked up to the head tracker, it can be downright dangerous.

It also matters what you mean by FLIR. If you simply mean the infra red sensor, then Shawn's comments are a good response. However, when people say FLIR they very often mean the whole turret. This often incorporates other sensors, most notably a daylight zoom video camera too, but increasingly more sophisticated devices too.

If you expand a bit more what you are after, we may be able to help more.

ASV,
There are three general types of FLIR (Forward Looking Infra Red) sensors for helos. They all share the basic FLIR sensor, which shows heat, not light, and so is useful in black of night:

1) FLIR turret with heads down display. This is the most prevalent type, where the FLIR acts like a TV and displays on a tube in the cockpit. The crew points to FLIR, and can adjust focus, zoom, white-hot/black-hot, and contrast, as well as point the FLIR with some kind of slew switch. This FLIR is used for searching, especially for sea survivors, where the heat picture from the FLIR will display a warm floater or raft at great distances.
In sophisticated installations, the FLIR can be pointed by the navigation system, using the grids of the survivor, or by the radar, where the FLIR can be directed to oint to the place where the radar found something. These are known as Geo point or radar point capabilities. A search flir is almost useless for flight cues, since it shows a picture that whirls and spins when the aircraft moves. It is very useful for searching in low light, of course.

2) Flir with head mounted display (HMD) - Here, the flir is tied to a helmet display (a small tv suspended over one or both eyes). On many HMD's the flir is reflected off a mirrored glass, so the pilot can see thru the image if the background is bright enough. Here a sensor on the pilot's head/helmet reads the angle of the helmet, and directs the flir to point to suit, so the pilot can direct the flir with simple looks. This is most natural, and effective as a flight cue for pilots to fly in zero light circumstances. It is however somewhat expensive.
In really sexy systems, the flir is dual eye. Even more impressive are those that have computer cues displayed in addition to the flir, so the pilot can read his flight instruments, weapons cautions etc. Apache has a single eyed system like that (IHADDS) and Comanche has a dual eye system. A Comanche pilot can fly the entire mission without looking inside the cockpit, should he choose to.

3) fixed (un-turreted) flir - has no turret, and simply looks where the aircraft points. There is interest in this now, with cheap flirs becomming more common, but frankly, I think these are very poor third choices to the above. When the flir is bolted to the airframe, any motion of the aircraft is displayed to the pilot, so the picture is very unstable. This can be very disorienting especially if one tries to use the display to fly the aircraft.

So one trying to fly with option #3 would be flir-ting with disaster ...

(I couldnt resist) :)

ASV,

I think it would help if you indicate what you want to use the FLIR for (specifically or generally).

Many tnx guys for the help.........well.. what i'm looking for is a study between different types of FLIR to choose the best one for the helicopter in general ...and i need that as quick as possible plsssssssssssssss...... ;)

ASV.

This has been touched on before.

You need to define a mission.

Looking for ‘hot-spots’ in overhead cables is somewhat different to the mission where you might want to find a running man in a pursuit. There are a number of other potential scenarios - there is a World of difference between a hand held FLIR in the back streets of some southern US state and say the unit on any military EH101 .

In a low use wire survey role you might be happy with a fixed or hand held uncooled unit. Cost effectiveness will matter and as a result you may not need to buy from a large supplier. If you live ‘down the road’ from a factory of an ‘unknown’ manufacturer it might make more sense to go to them that to go to one of the big manufacturers over 1,000 miles way.

If you are thinking pursuit you need to consider where you intend to fly. If you are in the USA you can buy low-cost units that is fine being flown very visibly at 300-500 feet but pretty lame when operating at 1,000 feet. If you are in Europe you will naturally go for a higher spec unit that allows you to do the job covertly from more than 1,000 feet.

In the end its probably a compromise that the Buck will decide.

More input required!

Fleer, don't they make bubble gum?
 

I don’t know if this is still the case but on the original Apache FLIR it took 15 minutes or more to chill down the Pockle (possible misspelling) Cell to the point that you could use the FLIR. This meant that the pilot was blind on any night mission that required immediate takeoff.

:uhoh:

This is the well known major drawback with QWIP technology.

It did cause a major hiccup in the UK as the police users were still cooling as they arrived on scene [they are mainly reactive]. Those that took issue with the problem stayed with the earlier technology others took the balanced view to put up with the problem and buy the bether option - QWIP.

In the case of the military it may be that war will probably last long enough for it not to matter!

The cooling process starts at engine wind-up anyway so we are not talking more than minutes. It may just be that they are important minutes. APU's can assist.

As others said before, you need to define the mission.

Not just what sort of things you're going to look at (people, power lines, scenery, etc), but what you want the FLIR to do once you've got the area of interest. Do you want to manually track the target, or should the FLIR have auto tracking? Would you like to slave the FLIR to some other onboard system (radar track, cursor position, point on the earths surface)?

Each manuafacturer builds in other useful things, such as a digital zoom, local area enahancement to give a clearer image on a certain area of the screen, automatically scan a certain area/sector, and others I am sure others can think of.

You also have to think of any other equipment required, Video recorders, downlinks to a ground station. Is it going to be replayed through a dedicated monitor or a multifunction display? Stand alone or integrated? Seperate controller, or an existing joystick/slew/cursor controller?

Even then there will probably be more than one manufacturer/ model that will meet your requirements. Then the best choice comes down to price, delivery time, any software/integration required.

Your original question is like asking "What's the best car?", oh, its a ferrari is it? OK then take your kids, dog and luggage and move this wardrobe for me.......

Come on ASV

We are itching to hear what you want to do with your FLIR equiped helicopter, chase crooks, rescue sailors, shoot at baddies or look at wire. Or have you got a cunning plan that no one else has thought of and want to know if it will work.

Hi ASV
What you need is a multi mission capable FLIR Ball, like the LEO II as your roles are SAR, and shooting baddies at night.
I'll see you on Monday
SiClick

So where did IR look before it looked Forward, and considering the turrets often have 360deg fov, why isn't it called LEIR(Look Everywher Infra Red)? :D :D

Don't forget the visual cameras fitted in tandem with the IR sensors these days - some of them have pretty impressive capability ...........

And is Sideways Looking Radar just a particularly furtive ordinary radar?

LEO II..??
 

Need info about " LEO II " flir system , i went to the site but still not that info i'm looking for ie weight , rang ........ etc .


TNX 4 help ;)

You won't get much info here, to exposed.
Try the national air support forum
(http://www.oscar99.org.uk/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi)
if you are in the trade.
Otherwise, I'm afraid you'll have to make do with the sales bumph they sell you.
Sorry.

will im looking for this deails abut LEO ....


1. FEATURES

2. APPLICATION

3. CHARACTERISTICS

4. DETAILS


tnx......:rolleyes:

I'll see what I can find out when I'm back on shift. Wouldn't put too much faith in Oscar99 - I'm in the trade yet received a very terse snottagram when I dared to attempt to join their forum. Stick to this place - much friendlier.

Count yourself almost lucky, I got past the snottagram stage years ago, they just do not reply now! Still its nice to know it winds 'em up a little!

It clearly shows that they want to create a forum where a free and frank exchange of views might pass! Perhaps they think it is policeman that build and equip their aircraft, certainly the line of who is in and who is out is at best fuzzy! Civilian operational pilots in .... but police helicopter test pilots out?

Some folks are very narrow of the mind. Not so Ppruners [well not much anyway].

Back onto subject though ... LEO 2 .... is an out of date term except in South Africa. The equipment was renamed by FLIR Systems after the QWIP difficulties.

Are we perhaps looking at details for the SA version or a pre-used item?

Leo-II-A5

Turret: 39kg, slew rate 60deg/sec in az(360deg) and el(+20 to -105deg), fully stabilised.
Internal "black box": 8.5kg
Laptop Controller: 1.5kg

Operating temperature: -20 to +55deg C
Supply Voltage: 22-32 Vdc
Power Consumption: 280Watts nominal, 480Watts peak

Infra Red(Triple QWIP)
Camera: Triple QWIP, 3 FOV
Spectral Band: 8 to 9µm
Detector: Focal Plane array, GaAs.
FOV: Wide: 25degx19deg. Mid: 6x4.5. Narrow: .99x.74. Switching time: .5sec.
Zoom: x2 and x4 Electronic Zoom
Polarity: White/Black hot plus multi-coloured
Cooling: Integrated Stirling Cooler, approx 4-5 minutes to cool down(there is no picture until fully cooled).
Performance:
Detection: Predicted, 15000m. Typical, 17000m
Recognition: Predicted, 7100m. Typical, 7500m
Identification: Predicted, 3600m. typical, 3800m
Focus: Auto/manual
Video Output: NTSC/PAL

Daylight Camera:
Type: Sony Exwave-HAD Interlinr Transfer CCD
SensorFormat: 1/3 inch type 3-CCD
Resolution: 800 TV lines
Active Pixels: 752x582. Total 440000
Minimum Sensitivity: 4 lux
Zoom: x54 (x27 with x2 switchable extender)
Focal Length: 9.5 to 512mm
FOV: min .67x.5 deg. max 35x29 deg
Video Output: NTSC/PAL
S to N Ratio: 58db

Optional Equipment:
Laser Rangefinder: 80-15000m
Spotter TV
Auto Tracker

Hope that's what you want. We've had ours for a year now without any problems. IR/daylight pictures are excellent broadcast quality.

Now that's what I call helpful..!

As I said only recently, we can answer anything on this forum. :ok:

Tnx 4 all.. yes this is what i'm looking 4 MightyGem many tnx..:ok:

Just like to say I can't post on to the Oscar99 site either - seems 'Hugh Jorgan' isn't an appropriate handle............ Gits!:cool:

No problems. It was a quiet night :zzz:

Stabilised Airborne Observation System
 

Does anyone have any experience of these systems, particularly the LEO range. I'm just after some general comment but if you can back it up with some specifics, that would be good. Thanks.

Firstly, I have experience only of combined TV/TI systems, not of the better quality ENG style TV systems.

LEO-400:- early system but fairly reliable, go for the 3-CCD TV not the single CCD. THV-1000 TI generally reliable; laptop controller rather less ergonomic but better than those with a pistol grip type control.

LEO-2:- not much experience of this but good TV zoom [54x as opposed to 32x] and slightly better TI; good laptop controller.

Ultraforce [latest]:- good TV zoom; TI has advanced technology but is as a consequence almost too complicated. If you are using it is the police role the wide lens is a little too wide for target acquisition at heights that allow the [excellent] narrow lens to be used. Ongoing problems with TV focus and over-complexity of TI image setup.

All the systems are of the 60-70kg overall weight including pod, wiring and contol boxes. the later systems do have slightly better stabilisation but are really quite expensive. A maintenance contract with any of these is highly recommended. The cheap and cheerful smaller versions are however reflective of how much you pay.

Wescam, anecdotally is a good system but I believe here in the UK there have been problems with product support.

PM me if you want a longer discussion.

sir: if you could be more specific on your requirements such as
1) mission profile
2) aircraft type
3) budget

we manufacture mounts for various helicopters for all the leading IR manufacturers systems, flir, taman, wescam, polytech etc and maybe able to shed some light on your questions

dr

Thanks Droopy thats the sort of thing I wanted; thanks chopperdr I'll keep your name for later.

FLIR for RAF SAR Sea Kings
 

Been reading about the new multi sensor search system going on the Crab version of the SAR Sea King (FLIR and a new RADAR). Why didn't the MOD buy some similar kit for the RN SAR Boys?
Would I be right in thinking that the RN have wasted all their cash on Merlin?
Sorry RN, bit provocative. But don't we have some joined-up ideas about common procurement across the military? Surely it must be more cost effective to find a common solution rather than buy different kit for the RN.

As far as I understand, the RN SAR Cabs are looking at joining 3 Gp and trying to amalgamate with the RAF SAR cabs, but as always these things take time.

I believe that Gannet have finally got NVG only a large number of years after the RAF were using them.

The joined up thing is on the way, but the wheel turns very slowly.

Heard a rumour that the new radar display and CDNU/RNAV link could be termed a pile of poo. Any news from SAR operators?

Seems crazy that the RAF are only now getting FLIR when the police and civvy SAR cabs have been using it for ages.

Is the new radar bit of it forward looking? Always struck me that having the radome on the Sea King aft of the gear box was strange. Still, it seems to have served it purpose all this time.

Stabalised Camera Systems
 

Anyone able to give advice as to where to look for a good stabalised camera system, to be fitted to a Schweizer 300. Mainly required for News Gathering. I've found details on the web regarding the Eagle Vision 11, looks like what I need, anyone any expirience with it?
Also keen on the Cineflex V12-21X-SD, but still waiting on their pricing, suspect out of reach for my intended use.

I've been happy with the FLIR systems Ultramedia RS. We get 40:1 zoom and very stable pictures. Customer support could be better, but the system works pretty well.