Question about stabilized cameras
 

Hi everybody :)

My boss has asked me to look into some kind of stabilized camera (or camera mount) for his helicopter. The catch is that he wants it to be "affordable."

I've done some research, and come up with a couple things (all, unfortunately, hovering around the five figure mark), but I thought that perhaps more informed minds could offer a bit of insight into shooting video from a helicopter. We're not talking movie-grade here, just better than we could get from duct taping a video camera to the skid.

Also, please let me know if this could, or should be in a more appropriate forum.

Thanks!

eblack: we make camera mounts for a variety of helicopters, we also work with most everyone in the camera / sensor world. send me an email off line and let us know your aircraft and mission and i'am sure we can steer you in the right direction
dr

Thanks for the reply, I sent you a PM :)

If anyone else has advice or info, by all means let me know.

Don't buy - rent

Try:

www.ken-lab.com

They make a handheld stabiliser powered by a small battery pack. It accepts all still and videocameras (normal tripod type screw in mount). It has two opposing gyros rotating at 20k+ RPM. Last time I heard they were just less than US$3k. Very very useful.

Wow, that's almost exactly what I was looking for, thanks!

New FLIR Systems
 

I know there has been a lot of talk about the new Infrared systems out there so thought I would post this link so people can see for themselves what sort of systems are avialable.

Infrared FLIR Systems

Airborne camera system
 

Any advice on a reasonably priced airborne camera system for a B206? It need’s to have decent stability/zoom & night time capabilities.

Many thanks.:ok:

Kopter, I believe that HJS Helicopters of Peterculter Aerodrome (a few miles West of Aberdeen) ordered a camera system and mounting from a company for their B206. Haven't got their number, sorry, but it is in the BHAB guide. They might be willing to share info if you're not in competition.

W've got a FLIR.

Phil

kopter

You could try David Ballie at Wildcat Flying.He has a special Gyro Stabalisation Camera that will do the job.



www.wildcatflying.com




Cheers


Barshifter

There is no such thing as a reasonably prized with decent stability and night time capabilities...:E
Either it has a reasonable price or a decent stability.

Flir Uk
 

Does anyone have a contact for operators with FLIR capability for private lease in the UK. Many Thanks.
Tony

Try PAS 01452 857999

Depends if you want Infra Red capability or Broadcast TV capability. For Thermal surveillance then PAS, or Aeromega at Stapleford, PDG Helicopters in Scotland, Sterling Helicopters at Norwich all have the equipment.

Send me a PM if you want to discuss further over telephone.

FLIR, Cineflex, Wescam etc.
 

Looking at the filming market there seems to be an imense change towards HDTV camera systems.

Which Gimbal comes with what kind of camera? Can you put any kind of camera in any kind of gimbal???

Looking at the FLIR Ultramedia III HD that seems to be a decent solution (using the Sony HDC 950) but at what price???

Generally all the companies love to present their products and they love to praise their products but when it comes to prices they don't seem to know what their systems are worth. Or why on earth is it so hard to get your hands on some prices?

Quite simply, with the larger companies, the exact price fits the customers assumed worth.

Its a bit like buying double glazing but, unlike double glazing, the sensor companies rarely go so far as to advertise the starting price.

Equally the companies do not advertise the fact that they are primarily offering you a ball turret with a badge engineered content.

The only really effective control over every company having access to exactly the same cameras is for them to take over the supplier and 'corner' that particular camera option.

Beware the HDC 950 which Sony have discontinued. Awaiting with interest to see what the replacement will be. And that's the problem with HD - rapidly shifting technology and changing standards.
USA is going its own way on standards - Europe still arguing as ever.
Agee about "badge engineering" on mounts - they all seem to have the same father : John Coyle. He currently works for Cineflex - Cineflex just bought by big LA operator Helinet.
The new Cineflex HD is a good piece of kit and only weighs 70 lbs with lens - but again, the camera has been discontinued.
The other prob with HD currently is the live link, if you need such a device. Big bandwidth required - they lashed one together for Live 8 Hyde Park but could only get a 2.5 mile range. Perfect for that job and they were lovely shots.

Actually, headsethair, the downlink for live 8 was normal bandwidth and the [live] pictures were standard definition. The HD was for the subsequent CD. The usual range for that particular downlink is never more than a couple of clicks although there are versions with almost unbelievable range.

Thanks for the kind words about the pics, though.

Fair enough Ian - but I'm quoting from the link specialists who provided the gear and they definitely told me that they achieved an HD link on that job.

NUMBERS.

A recent story in a US paper may provide a clue to FLIR pricing.

'The Chicago Fire Department helicopter will soon be equipped with a state-of-the-art thermal imaging camera capable of dramatically improving high-rise firefighting and outdoor rescue, under a $255,973 contract quietly approved last month.
City Hall has signed a no-bid contract with FLIR Systems Inc. for delivery of the Ultra 8500 camera system within 90 days. [Sun]'

I guess an element of that will be fitting and training.

Infared cameras
 

Just been tasked with finding an infared camera to fit to an A109 and was hoping some of you might have some good or bad experiences that you want to share.

Only ones I've seen are fitted to the tail, as in these pics

Welsh Police

Italian Police

Not sure if the Dyfed-Powys Police are still operating their 109, but you could try them as a starter

http://www.dyfed-powys.police.uk/

Hey Bellsux,

There are many infrared camera options out there but most are quite specific to a certain role (of which there are many). Most can be used for simple work such as police support or sar but some can be used for more technical work such as powerline patrols, gis fire and thermal mapping etc.

If you are looking at a new system, FLIR still seem to be leading the field but it really depends on exactly what you want to do with it.

Cheer cheer, good luck.

Although recent FLIR carrying 109s have tended to carry the FLIR ventrally it seems to reflect the size of the FLIR - it eases the CoG with 'heavy' units like the Wescam 15 and the FSI Ultramedia. These tend to be European based [still in Dyfed] Italy, Slovenia and China. I guess that such a fit would be difficult to retrofit ... lots of EMC issues likely.

But in the US where smaller FLIR units like the Wescam 12 and Inframetrics derived units tend to be used on the 109 and and 119 they are fitted forward offset to port and use simple equipment and offer a relatively simple retrofit option. Look up Cal at Meeker Aviation he knows a great deal about this aspect of the market. Operators are New York, New Mexico, etc

There are lots of manufacturers out there and Wescam and FSI may be neck and neck [not quite a home run for FSI as the previous post suggests] but there are plenty of others that will give you their eye-teeth - and a potential discount if you choose them....

bellsux; some questions for you with regards to the flir install on the -109

- what is your mission
- do you have floats installed
- is the install going to be full time, or just as needed
- are you willing to make permanent mod to airframe
- how much weight can you afford to carry
- and of course, how much do you want to spend

just did some work with agusta US on penn state koala and phoenix pd's -109, so its still fresh. thats a good start, if you want send a p/m
thanks
chopperdr
aka; cal meeker, meeker aviation

bellsux - try FLIR Systems (US company) - they provided the IR camera we are using in UK mil SAR at the moment and it is very good. It uses the latest QWIP (Quantum Well Infrared Photodetector) technology and has a very small Stirling pump to cool the detector quickly. It was procured to give the capability to find a person in the water and works very well.
You might need to have an IR detector working in a different band of wavelengths depending on the climate you will operate in but the company will advise you on that. Our removable turret also houses a daytime TV camera but I suspect our installation would be too big for a 109.

Bell,

As Cal mentioned, does your 109 have the float kit? Most FLIR kits require the forward float mount on the 109; without it you will probably be up for mega$$ to create a useable attachment point for any FLIR.

Bellsux

If you are looking for both daylight and IR (duel sensor) capabilities, then you should contact Cineflex in Grass Valley Ca.. The daylight capability is High Definition, it's a serious step from the FLIR and Westcam offerings, that is if you're looking for detail in the images.....

Sling,

Before again pointing out specific companies.... and I believe Cineflex are a bit of a one horse option [on size and weight] no matter how good the image ... we are still pottering around trying to find out the task and the kit that may or may not influence the choice of kit from Bellsux.

The mission is all important and until you have some idea on that - and the carrier airframe - it is a bit poinless suggesting whether you offer him advice on a 12, 16 or indeed a 24 inch turret [!!!!] answer let alone how and where it is fitted [permanantly or temporary].

All imagers from all the manufacturers you may care to mention will give you something to look at but until the basics are sorted you cannot even go there safely with the aircraft trimmed and safe to operate!

Just how long is the piece of string Bellsux?

having the opportunity to work with almost all the major manufactures of IR/color/low light etc cameras throughout the world i know that each mfg brings to the market unique characteristics.
with that said, would never recommend any one system over another without carefully reviewing the mission. then you start to narrow down the playing field. no different than buying a new helicopter. they all have positive and negatives.
therefore, bellsux, whats the mission, how much weight can you carry and the final 64K question, whats your budget.
dr

sling: btw, last week FSI flew their UMHD on our nose mount (BELL 206), this new camera had longer focal length than any existing HD cameras, with excellent stablization.
knowing firsthand the competive nature of the business, as witnessed by the filing cabinet full of NDA\'s in our office, i do not doubt a new offering / upgrade is in the works from any number of mfgs as i write this.
as we all know, when buying any item with technology that is developing overnight, best to very carefully investigate all the offerings. this is a prime reason we see law enforcement agencies having competive "fly-offs" as standard procedures when purchasing new equipment.
dr

Chopperdr, I'd be interested to know what lens they had on there. You'd be hard pressed to go longer than a surveillance Cineflex!

as mentioned, due to NDA not allowed to mention any details. truthfully they told me what it was, went rapidly in one ear and out the other. i'm pretty sure if you asked the likes of FSI , Cineflex, Gyrocam, Wescam etc the same question directly they would probably tell you, their pretty proud of their respective systems and rightly so.
on our end my concern during flight testing is making sure the mount is doing its job and our mechanical vibration isolators are properly tuned for each application. beyond that, the "guts" do not interest me. weight, size and shape, now thats interesting when your the mount guy : )
dr

I have had a good look at most of them now and FLIR has a pretty good range. I am lucky enough to be able to not worry about the budget too much but I don't want a huge ball hanging from my machine and an overcomplicated system. Yes I do have floats and I cant use the fwd attach points. Fitting the monitor in the cockpit seems like it will be out of the question though as there's not much room left in it.

What ... external monitor? [!!!!]

That might be a bit draughty...

pan... errr... believe it or not we have this area behind the cockpit where you can squeeze up to six (very small) people and or some equipment . Maybe you have the 109 confused for a helicopter called the R22, a bit of searching on Google might help you tell the difference.

and I am just having a freindly dig before you start to smoke up the keyboard...:)

Cripes I knew I was making a mistake.... ah yes I remember the one ... pointy at the front and back ... difficult to slow down ....

Should be a good party then now we have six [little] people peering at the monitor...

Ah.... but what are they looking at?

You KNOW we want to know!

bellsux: now were getting somewhere. my suggestions

1) seriously look at FLIR 8500XR. probably the biggest bang for the buck, size and shape. Also look at wescam MX12, polytech cobalt, taman pop and denel 350.

2) is the camera going to be installed full time?

3) have to consider export control licenses, may be an issue with FLIR and wescam equipment

4) get the warranty written in stone, deal with local distributor for the purchase. talk to the factory for tech questions and support

5) with regards to mount, can you remove one float for camera work, that would make for an easy install

6) if not can you do a "walkaround" of your airframe and send jpegs on a pm or via our website, can suggest some alternative install location

7) can you return to service with a local approval, as an stc will be very cost prohibative

8) monitors: phone scott holst at paravion in colorado, they have good monitors and an assortment of arms / mounts for the monitors that are well proven.

thanks
chopperdr

Cineflex V14 HD can offer 80X. So is the new FLIR even deeper ?

the cineflex is a fine camera. however i'm thinking bellsux is looking more along the lines of IR. keep in mind the HD camera's are only as good as long as your system is HD.
FLIR UMHD is deeper yet.