.

This to me sounds like a troll.
Something like this would not be posted here, unless it was a deliberate attempt to tarnish someone or somewhere.


If you seriously believe all of this to be true, you would have reported it to an Airport official or the CAA before the said instructor had a chance to notch up so many alleged offences!

My guess is, you are a competing school!

I agree with autosync - this has to be a wind up !!

Even as a student pilot , common sense must tell you not to go flying in those conditions especially in a basic equipped R22. Surprised your instructor didn't have a beer in his hand while you were flying ! You seem to know a fair bit about the rights and wrongs of the situation , so why did you continue to fly with them. You are very brave or have a death wish.

If this is all true , then don't even go near their front door. I'm not a grass but people operating like this need to be stopped before someone gets hurt - the CAA need to be involved. This just gives us all a bad name and spoils it for all the hard working and law abiding pilots out there.

If on the other hand this is all b*****ks and you are just having a go at someone as autosync suggests then you are a total w****r !

Clearly if you were serious about your concerns you would not even have to ask the question.

LQ71,

The reason for Autosync's concern is that you have only just registered.

Now, you could have been readin every day as a guest and this is the first time you've felt moved to post OR you have another login.

If you already have your PPL(H) and from your post I have inferred that you have, then you should know what the requirements are. You should have known some of the requirements whilst studying Air Law at PPL.

Do what your conscience tells you to do - you ought to know what is acceptable by now!

Cheers

Whirls

Consider your future? What on earth do you think is going happen? This instructor arranges for you to go swimming in concrete boots? You're not at school anymore, you're not going to be taunted with "tell-tale-tit, your tongue will split!"

Time to take mature action don't you think? If you call the CAA, they do ask who you are and how you know. They will want evidence so you need to provide specifics - dates etc.

Cheers

Whirls

edited to add - This "consider my future" bit - it doesn't mean you WORK for this school, does it? Your concern at potentially losing an income is a little too deep for it just be a worry about others in the industry thinking you're a grass.

You clearly know that what you say you are seeing is unacceptable.

If you have facts and are prepared to stand by them, then you also know what you should do. If you don't have facts then get some.

If you choose to walk away and 'not get blacklisted', you also have to live with the consequences when, if all you say is true, the inevitable happens.

I am not normally prone to be judgemental, but in this case I would suggest you act like a grown-up and as a pilot who has a due sense of responsibility. Confront the school's CFI and manager with your concerns, and if they do not respond appropriately, send an honest letter to the CAA which you would be prepared to discuss openly around a table with the company and with the CAA reps, and which cannot be used against you in a libel court.

BW

Put up or shut up........


DD

...but other than this, the place is fine, right? :}

IMHO

'learningquickly71'

You sound like a very weak-willed, easily led and foolish individual. Frankly i'm concerned you're flying at all....with no spine how did you ever manage to pass a medical examination.

No matter what stage of training you were at, no-one will believe you didn't know what you were doing was wrong AT THAT TIME. That makes you an accopmplice ..... never mind all this b..........t about wondering afterwards what was right and wrong.

You were a paying customer learning Air Law and pefectly able to act with your intellect and feet at the time. It suited you to take advantage of the blatant rule breaking that was going on to meet your ends. Now you've passed your PPL(H), something has occurred and a dose of sour grapes appears to be setting in.

It seems to me there's a big difference between a pilot and a person who just sits in the cockpit and drives an aircraft. Mostly that difference is about personal traits

Get a spine.....challenge the behaviour.......inform the CAA anyway about what's occurring and be man enough to accept any fallback coming your way.

Otherwise shut your dumb-ass mouth, quit as a helicopter driver and go do your bleating somewhere else.

R1tamer

R1 Tamer ....

That's some reply !! Just wish you wouldn't beat around the bush so much and just say what you mean !!!!!!!

Are you from Texas ? If not you should be !

Anyway , you're right on the money. Good post.

Tony.

IF this is not a troll I see nothing wrong with finding out what the general consensus is before acting. Although your instinct may tell you what is going on is not right (i.e. you would hope it was done differently) without experience for all you know it is actually not too far from the norm. I say there is nothing spineless about finding out what the bigger picture is before acting - in fact perhaps it's a trait that makes a better pilot than acting impulsively and hot-headedly!

However, I agree - put up or shut up! (In the nicest possible way :ok:!)

...'When you have spent the best part of £50,000'...

For a PPL(H)? In that case got mine dirt cheap ..

Exactly Cron!

LQ71 are you sure you're not a CPL? Possibly with an FI(R)? Those qualifications would cost the amount you quote. In which case, I would definitely re-iterate what I said above. You should know what to do and you shouldn't need peer approval or bow down to peer pressure from the pages.

Cheers

Whirls

If it's any consolation, I did once inform the CAA of someone flying commercially on a PPL. And I don't care what anyone thinks - I think I did the right thing and that's what matters.

I'm relatively new to heli's and this week I got sent a thing through from CHIRP, www.chirp.co.uk

"The home of confidential reporting for the aviation and maritime communities"

Can anyone else shed any light on this organisation, seems to be a mechanism, run/endorsed by CAA to allow confidential reporting of these types of issues.

Even if LQ71 is a CPL(H) holder I see nothing wrong with getting a feel for what the repercussions might be. Put up or shut up say we and I'll bet most of us would just shut up (or should that be put up?) and not even consider blowing the whistle. So fair play for considering it. Again nothing spineless there...

Stringfellow Dork

" Put up or shut up say we and I'll bet most of us would just shut up (or should that be put up?) and not even consider blowing the whistle. "


Mmmmmmm..... a generalisation that any pilot with a professional attitude will be unhappy you tarred them with!

Put up + Shut Up = FUBAR

R1tamer

wow , lots of info there & honestly I think you know what to do.

I dont think bouncing this off a forum can hurt and atleast its a place to ask a question with out repercussions that will affect your future but.....when the times comes to report it it may and thats what PPL balance ..If I do nothing and get through is it worth risking reprisal in doing the right thing.

Its not easy doing the right thing, especially when it is something severe as to shut down an operation and SPINELESS isnt a word that you should write , some PPL just cant do certain things with out an element of fear or self doubt...dont trash someone for seeking help....... If this is a bull!!!! thread then take it as one but honestly the guy didnt name anything as he stated just a series of concerns that as a new guy to the industry may not know of what is acceptable or not , Its not like all these things are happening in every flight so just "BENDING" a rule here and there doesnt seem so bad but when you ad them all together well , yeah it can look like crap.

Lets look at it this way seeing as you know what is right and wrong and rules are being broken ..(THERE IS NO BENDING OF RULES..either they are followed or they are not ) if no one gets hurt then there is no problem BUT if some one does and it isnt reported ...how are you going to feel then knowing that you may have had the oportunity to save some ones life but did nothing in fear of being labeled a stickler of safety ? :(

IF you report it tomorrow and things change , you may never know that you saved some one from injury or loss of life but you can assume that you did.

Everytime you do a pre flight inspection you never know if you will find... what ever the Jesus Nut coming loose , but everytime you do it & find nothing you know that you just helped peserve your own life......Could you fly comfortably with out doing one ?....I know that I would be !!!!ting myself before I got off the ground so there is no way I could even crank the engine with out sweating guilty thoughts.

Personally I know that I would report it , jesus write a letter as a concerned citizen or as a prior student or some guy who's house keeps getting over flown at 50ft , but get it to the correct department !!!

Get them to check operations visually incognito when you are schedualed to fly or another pilot, get them to see it for themselves.

NOTIFY ANYONE YOU CAN, ANYWAY YOU CAN !!


If you have asked the CFI about it and he talks you down ...does he back up his arguement with the REGS book and outline where you are being over cautious or is he throwing the old " I have been flying for X years and you only Y years blah blah crap.

Good luck with it...

As others have stated already, you have 2 real options: Do nothing and you may end up with this crowd having an incident or worse an accident, and someone getting killed, or, write a detailed confidential letter to the CAA out lining your concerns.

Just be prepared to stand up in public if needed, to back this up. Are you the only one who has commented on the way this place operates?

R1Tamer - fair point. What I meant was in this particular situation, this set of circumstances.

Having vented my spleen earlier here are a few words to try and give you some constructive perspective on your situation.

The world in general needs people who are prepared to challenge innapropriate behaviour which may be regarded by a minority as acceptable and the norm. If it weren't so law and order would be an unheard of concept.

By failing to challenge the issues you described above you became complicit in the problem - an accomplice!

Think on the following as you make this decision you seem to find so difficult:-

In any industry there are those who try to play it by the book and those who try to buck the system. Your complicity and your instructors recklessness make it harder for legitimate schools to run a cost effective business.

Every time you went along with some illegitimate act it added more fuel to your instructors self-delusion that what he was doing was okay.

The longer you allowed and continue to allow the situation to remin unchallenged the greater the odds become that the wheel will fall off and you or more importantly some poor other succour will 'come a cropper'

Each time the CAA becomes aware that behaviour like this is going unchallenged it fuels their fire for heavy handed regulation and new legislation further burdening the system

Whilst I can't speak for the CAA I can tell you with authority that most enforcement agencies look favourably on those whose intent is honourable. The dishonest guy gets no short thrift with them.

Give consideration to the level and depth of any investigation made at this school after some unfortunate event takes place in the future. The last thing you need is retrospective enquiries leading to a knock on your door. Let me assure you it does happen - i've done the door knocking!

Challenging the behaviour directly is a fair way to start the process. However you need to decide whether your challenge will be heeded for longer than ten seconds after you walk out the door. If you are at all unsure then .........

However, I would urge you to be sure of what your intentions were when you started this thread. Were they honourable and with the intention of raising safety standards. Or were they borne out of some sense of being wronged or crossed by a particular individual.

Bear in mind, that school and that instuctor have probably already read this thread and they'll be plotting their next move already - ball's in your court now!

R1tamer

PS If your thread and allegations are all a crock then you can kiss my curvy butt!:ok:

CHIRP has very little to do with this sort of matter; it is to with pilots reporting incidents that have (usually) happened to themselves. They are reported in the interests of safety so that others can learn from the mistake/error/incident.

The pilot doing the reporting does not have to disclose their identity.

It is not a facility for reporting the wrongdoing of others.

Hope that helps.

Cheers

Whirls

There is nothing wrong with writing a letter to the CAA's licensing/safety group which describes what you have seen whilst making it clear that this was at a time of limited experience and (if you are like most students) substantial stress.

Written in a manner that you would be prepared to stand by around a table with a CAA rep and the CFI, there's no reason to keep this a secret.

Sad to say, I have been in exactly your position as a student at a helicopter training organisation, which is why the comments may have rung a bell!

I trained at a small school for 30 hours then left, joining another school about 6 months later. I immediately realised that there were many issues at my old school. I discussed them with the new instructors and the CFI at the new school, then called the CAA. I could have called the old school but unfortunately the instructors who had taught me had also left the school and I had moved away and did not want to do this over the phone.

I discussed the matter with a member of the CAA safety group, frequently mentioning that it was easy for me as a student to get the wrong impressions. They told me to write it all down, and that what they do is to keep all these issues in mind when arranging inspections - it gives them information about what to look for. Such letters are not that unusual.

I was not contacted again, but if I had been I would have had no problem discussing the letter at a meeting because it just stated what I thought I had seen and did not judge the school. If the CFI had disagreed, he was obviously welcome to his opinion and the CAA can make their own judgements taking into account our relevant experience.

We are all collectively responsible for each other's safety in the sky, and badly trained pilots will hurt everyone, so just as when in a light aircraft I would not hesitate to tell a pilot that I was uncomfortable with the current flight situation (one dissenting voice), you should voice your discomfort.

Would you tell an experienced pilot if you were uncomfortable with a flight situation and ask him to explain how it was safe or make changes to it? I hope so, and hope even more that he would listen!

Don't think of it as being a troublemaker, think of it as acting responsibly by letting those who are qualified to regulate schools do their jobs.

BW

I have to agree with the majority on this thread that if you were really that concerned you would have done something more constructive by now than just bleat about things on Rotorheads.

You said you were worried that you might get blacklisted - but by whom?
Are you still hiring helicopters from the school where the alegations are based? If so then shame on you, as your own standards leave much to be desired! Any operator capable of doing even half the things you allege on the operational side is very likely to be cutting corners on the maintenance side as well. Do you really want your engine to quite on you, or the "jesus nut" to come off in flight etc? Maybe you are hiring their helicopters because they are cheap and convenient? There is usally a reason for this!

I think you have got to take aboard some of the more controlled advice on this thread and make a decision. If that decision is to "grass" then do it properly - don't use emotional reporting. Only state facts that you can substantiate - that might be the hardest part.

If you do go to the authorities, they should be able to follow-up on your allegations without bringing your name into it, at least at the outset.

It's make your mind up time!!

Bladewashout - good stuff!

Quote:The ground school given is very non-existent , I read a lot so I got away with that. Un Quote:

Personally, I prefer to study the information and then have the oportunity to receive validation that I have understood the subject correctly and then expect to be instructed on the relevence. If I haven't already sused it. But that is my preference. Everyone learns differently and the best you can get is a solution tailored for your particular needs. Are you aware of them? Being aware of your deficiencies is half the battle the rest is resolving them. If you are expecting a 'school environment' that follows a specific format then I suggest you should have done your pre course research a little more carefully.

Quote: Pre and post flight briefs do not exist. Un Quote.

Then conduct it yourself by questioning the instructor.

Quote: Dual cross countries are being done in weather like, vis 2KM and cloud base 900 FT.(Having to be put on tower freq when crossing another airfields ATZ)(lower than their circuit height) Un Quote.

Well determining wx minima for a particular training flight is pretty much down to the instructors assessment of the sudents capability balanced by the parameters of the training to be carried out. The bottom line is the instructors capacity to resolve any issues arrising in flight. You are clearly not able to cope with weather of those limits otherwise it would not be an issue so why did you not decline to fly?

Quote: Students have been sent solo cross country in conditions as bad as 700FT cloud, with winds up to 25 knots (in a R22) Un Quote.

Again it is up to the instructors assessment of the students ability and the bottom line is the students 'command' decision. Having said that, you have to learn to cope with all weather condiditons - at the right stage of competency - and you have to start sometime. 700 ft is not bad dependant upon the terrain you are operating over and 25 kts is simply fun!
If you have the ability to deal with it.

Quote: Solo students are allowed to land at private sites if they wish. Un Quote.

Well provided that the site meets the various requirements and it is within the pilots capability to use it, why not? After all landing at varied sites and under different circumstances is all good experience isn't it?

Quote: The in house examiner never fails anyone (worst he does is pass but insist on more flying with instructor before self fly hire) Un Quote.

Well c'mon now......anyone can learn to fly, the question is how long it will take before the money runs out. Under certain circumstances, I see nothing wrong with the above.

Quote: The instructor will do a flight dual then tell the student to log it as solo. Un Quote.

Well there may be reasons for this and without more in depth informations - no comment.

Quote: The instructor blatently ignores Rule 5 with low level flying (100FT over some places to look at something, or 800FT over small cities if he feels like it) Un Quote

Well LF if undertaken without prior planning and without a valid reason is in my opinion silly but have you considered - or are you even aware - of the occasions when you can legitimately low fly and 'bend' the rules to make it seem alright?

The instructor will try and charge 0.2 Hrs more than engine operated Datcon shows in order to build up an hour which he can then use to fly his friends about.
Ground exams answer sheets are left in the vicinity of the student taking the exam in order for him / her to self mark.
The aircraft do not have any radio nav equipment (GPS only) which I believe is a requirement for PPL tests.

Most of the time there is only one instructor (CFI)at this school PPL(FI) with 2000 hours.
Don't get me wrong , he can fly very well but I believe that risks are being taken and corners are being cut.
Altogether I am not sure whether I should find somewhere else to fly.

I read Rotorheads every day and I have a great respect for many of the people who post, be harsh with me if necessary, am I being too picky?
I am no 1000 hour whizkid but I have seen more professional operations elsewhere which have made me think and analyse .

Please advise me whether I should shut up and go and fly elsewhere or not.

Well sunshine - you are clearly not happy with your lot so my advice is to pack up and push off to somewhere else. No really! You should do that. I'd suggest that you'd be best advised to keep your whinges to yourself unless you have absolute concrete grounds for a valid complaint which shows that you have not received what you have contracted for. To do otherwise would in the end make you a viable target because it is clear that there is a significant gap in your understanding and ability - right now. Put it down to experience - after all , all experience is usefull. - and move on.

I've been thinking about all this for a couple of days before posting....

Over the space of quite a few years, I think I've run into almost all of the things mentioned. It happens. I've got so cynical already that I doubt if it's even unusual. And I've tended to let things lie; maybe I shouldn't, but I have. But few schools, instructors, or individuals, of any type, are perfect.

But to run into them all at the one school!!!!! That, if it's true, is really scary and MUST be reported.

But I don't think the original poster should be attacked the way some of you have. When you're a student, it's hard to know what's really wrong, and what's just....not according to the book, but usual practice in a lot of places. You tend to trust instructors and examiners at the start! You have to; you have your life in their hands. Then, when you get more hours, you start to wonder.... But you're not sure. So you ask your contemporaries, but those with more experience....like those on PPRuNe, for instance.

So what on earth is wrong with asking on here? Have some of you completely forgotten what it's like to be low hours? Do some of you only think there's ever one point of view? Do some of you never ever doubt yourselves, or at least want to check that you may have it right?

But, the bottom line - this school is dangerous and has got to be reported, whatever it takes, even if it means losing a place to fly or a job or whatever you might have to lose. There are other schools, and other places to fly. But each of us only has one life.

Whirly

You are correct in part, but I believe that LQ71 has got a licence, albeit probably only recently:
He also professes to understand what constitutes a more professional school and asked us to be brutal if necessary:
Quite simply, he got what he (or she?) was asking for.
Had such questions been put forward during a students formative training I suspect the response would have been more considerate, but still very much to the same point - if things really are that bad, go elsewhere and report the school to the appropriate authorities.

996
- you wouldn't by any chance work for the undisclosed school by any chance? Your defence of such poor standards rang an alarm bell..........

Flyer43 - Quote:
996
- you wouldn't by any chance work for the undisclosed school by any chance? Your defence of such poor standards rang an alarm bell..........Un Quote

Certainly not!! - Though you might be forgiven for thinking so. I can see how you read my response but to clarify - no I am not defending it. The standards are poor and if all the OP has said is true then had I the necessary 'clout' I would ensure steps were taken to remedy matters. The OP always has the option to make a formal complaint to the CAA of course but to do so effectively you need to qualify each complaint clearly and with checkable specifics.

The OP failed to specify clear circumstances so all I did was look at some of the 'problems' from another angle. Devils Advocate?

Sometimes trying to prove validity and justification can show failure points and indicate core problems.

996

Thanks for the clarification.

Flyer43

Given that LQ mentioned spending £50k, I would imagine he's got a lot more than a new shiny PPL(H) - possibly a new, shiny CPL(H)!

Cheers

Whirls

Whirls,

I didn't intend to start a sniping contest, but was commenting on what you appeared to be aluding to with your original post:

As you say, he may well have a CPL/H, or perhpas he's just a very slow learning PPL/H........!!

Cheers F43

PS: No malice intended. I do appreciate your posts on Rotorheads and am sure that I would like you, whoever you are!

Hey! Hang on! What's brought this on?

There is Whirlybird (AKA Whirly) whom you've quoted and Whirlygig (AKA Whirls); my good self!

I was just adding an extra and there's no sniping going on whatsoever!

I am sure that you would like both of us!

Cheers

Whirls

Edited to correct my typo as pointed out by Flyer43. And if you didn't point it out Flyer, I know a man who would!

Whirls,

Multitudinous apologies!! I must be seeing double - well it is shortly after sunday dinner and I've had a couple of glasses of red stuff to wash it down.
I'm sure that I would like both of you, and just to square things up - I've appreciated, and hope to continue to appreciate postings from Whirlybird and Whirlygig (or even Whirygig!)....... :)

And if you get your new shiny PPL(H), and flushed with success, do a bit of hourbuilding and get your new shiny CPL(H), all at the same school....it's not until you go out into the big wide world, with all of 185 hours (even less if you started with a PPL(A)), that you realise maybe everything wasn't as great as all the wonderful people who taught you to fly at your first school told you it was.

I speak from experience - though I didn't do all my training at one school, and the school wasn't all that bad...but the principle is the same. Maybe I was extraordinarily naive, but I'm sure I wasn't unique - correction, I know for certain I wasn't unique.

flyer43, you'd probably love both of us; it's just that we prefer you to remember that there are two of us, and, as on this thread, we Whirlys don't always agree!
:)

I'm certain that is the case here but what concerns me about LQ71 is that he thinks he is in a situation where to report the school will cost him dearly; he is concerned that the rest of the helicopter fraternity will think he is a grass and will not employ him. I'm not convinced that any reputable employer will think that!

Cheers

Whirls

Whirls

I'm with you on this one!
If everything is as LQ71 says, he'd (she'd?) be doing the fraternity a service by "grassing".

LQ71,

Good move. :ok:

Since you're correct about my identity, that narrows down the possible schools, doesn't it? I may know who you mean. However, I don't feel able to say any more in public, as my identity is known by many people. But feel free to pm me if you like; I may be able to help.

Glad you liked my article.

Whirls,
Agree 100% with you last post. :ok:

That level of over-confidence is not uncommon in new CPLs and others with a similar number of hours - been there, done that. I don't want to jump to any conclusions, but if this school is the one I think it might be, they do seem to....shall we just say turn out pilots who are somewhat unaware of their own limitations. Maybe it's part of the whole attitude engendered by some of what LQ71 talked about.

To those who say "name and shame", publish and be damned" etc etc, please remember it's not easy. This school is probably quite well known and well thought of in some circles. LQ71 is a new CPL who's spent shedloads of money and would like to get a job someday. This is a small industry, where people talk. Who are they going to believe - a longstanding school, or a low hours pilot? Especially if the school thought to put it about that he had a grudge, had never been any good, probably shouldn't be flying, or whatever. Sure, none of those things are important in comparison to people's lives, but can any of you who earn your living by flying, truly say, hand on heart, that you wouldn't at least think about them. Whistleblowers are rarely thanked...at least not in their own lifetimes. Can't you understand where LQ is coming from?

OK, I know this may be a wind-up, but I don't think it is, unfortunately. And even if it is, I prefer to take such cases seriously, in case they're for real.

I now know which school and instructor is being referred to, and I'm 100% certain this isn't a wind-up. I haven't been there for a long time, and though I know the person concerned, I didn't know things had got that bad.

I've been talking to a friend who found himself in a similar situation. He contacted Chirp. The head of Chirp contacted the CAA at the highest level, and they paid the school an unscheduled visit. My friend's name was not mentioned. This sounds to me like the way to go with this.