AAC sink or swim.
 

INTENTIONALLY BLANK - next time you pass through EGAA give me a call and I'll tell you about the long distance phone call I have just had!

[This message has been edited by PNVS (edited 18 January 2000).]

Sink or Swim you ask? It depends how long it takes us to get to them with the winch......

Give close air support back to the crabs where it belongs and I for one might consider joining up again.

Oops, spelling!

[This message has been edited by Skycop (edited 04 January 2000).]

Can I ask by the way who are we planning to fight with this awesome technology? (Apart from the French of course)

Dear dear, PNVS old chap, dontcha know that if one has been a colonel in the British Army, then one can do absolutely anything............and bugger it up!
No wonder ATIL have poached the AACs tech and weapons instructors to sit in the next office to the Sim instructors to tell them what to say and do.

Poached? Come off it sparecrew. My cousin who fly's (occasionally) for you lot says that the door sliders ATIL have approached are all beyond the 22yr point and are not required in the new Army orgbat. Not that they ever were.

[This message has been edited by stas-fan (edited 05 January 2000).]

I think the crabs gave up on CAS Skycop when the stopped getting within 20,000 ft of the (alleged) bad guys. We could always call it "Most un-adjacent Support of Sorts"!

Why all the talk of giving the crabs the AH?
Did anybody ever suggest that the Cavalry shouldn't get the Tank?
Look the Army do the fighting and the Crabs do the supporting.
Get the picture?

Close Air Support to the Crabs - don't even start that idea for fun! You can bet half-a-dozen Air Marshalls have already tried that one on. Just like they pinched Naval fixed- wing because they could do it so much better/ cheaper whatever. I don't think.

Oh, and Purplepitot, there is bound to be someone who wants fight somewhere. Speak softly but carry a big stick is a good plan.

What we want is more Marines! (Duck and weave :))

Does all this mean that the Grunts have at last decided they don't want to take over SH or run the world then? :)

PNVS, have some confidence that the validation process will take its course and any quality problems will be dealt with as they arise. The AAC has a huge task ahead but is well up for it. Are you?

Thank you 64av8or for that. The only problems that the AAC will have is getting the money to buy the right ground support equipment to do the job. I have this vision of Apaches being refuelled by Bedford bowsers!!

SKIDS ARE FOR KIDS!!

Bedford Bowsers were dismissed in favour of zenith pumps on all terrain castor wheels. The Reme will operate them as they have the required technical know-how!

Will the zenith pump have "flot gear" fitted to help the AAC swim?

So, if the AAC is so bouyant why were they/are they canvassing Tornado Nav's to re-tread? As to the SH boys they are extremely capable, probably more so that you green jobs (speaking as someone who has been aviating on both sides of the fence). My advice get current on your STASS and dinghy drills, you may need them (Does your budget still cover your STASS training, I heard you had suspended it for now) :rolleyes:

[This message has been edited by HeliAv8tor (edited 19 January 2000).]

[This message has been edited by HeliAv8tor (edited 19 January 2000).]

There seem to be some very conceited veiws from the blue jobs out there. If we left the CAS to the RAF then it would only be available when its CAVOK, and only if the 5 star hotel was within a fuel tanks range.

Remember the grass always seems greener on the other side. Having just spent a long time on a course with the RAF fast jet and rotor boys, then I know where i would rather be. Fast jet 4 to 5 hours a month no thanks.

Sorry you blue job guys but get to know the facts before gobbing off, the WAH 64 CAS I dont think so! Just because we Have NCO Aircrew. If it wasnt for NCO Aircrew maybe we would'nt of faired so well in the Battle of Britain.

Roprick, 'fraid I know the facts old son, I used to train you guys :)

[This message has been edited by HeliAv8tor (edited 22 January 2000).]

So you used to train us, then you will know that we are not going to take nav's. nothing against them, infact I have a very good friend how is a Tornado Nav. But it seems that you think we wont be able to handle it. If the US can then need I say more.

HeliAV8tor a QHI gosh what can I say. An expert in every field or so you think. well the army ones that is. No disrespect to all you QHI but just stick to the teaching flying.

I must agree the AAC has to get away from the soldiers first bollocks.

But I really cant stomach the blue jobs slagging down very good pilots just because they are NCO's.

Blue jobs who work with crews know the value of ncos, those who don't ...don't.

I heard a story about booty's all being commisioned! Is this true and is this really the demise of the AAC as well.

[This message has been edited by Ack2Main (edited 23 January 2000).]

Ack2Main,
from what I hear it is true, and good luck to them! As bitter a pill as it is for some of us to swallow this proves that NCOs are of the same quality as Officers throughout the Services.
As far as it being the demise of the AAC I believe they will continue to operate with the rank structure they already have very effectively.

This week the Booty NCO pilots have mostly been commissioned. If they want it anyway.Most of them have taken the RN up on a very good offer.
As for this being the end for the NCO pilot in the AAC I think NOT. Maybe it is time that the penny pincher's at the MOD looked at why the RAF fly commissioned officer front seaters on its rotary fleet.

[This message has been edited by A/Tpr Cooper (edited 25 January 2000).]

I THINK THE RAF HAVE ENOUGH PROBLEMS OF THIER OWN WITHOUT BITCHING ABOUT OUR APACHE ONES. THEY WANT IT BECAUSE THEY ARE JEALOUS. WHO WOULDN'T! BUT CONSIDER THIS IF JHC MANAGE TO BIN THE LYNX FLEET LIKE THEY WANT TO, WE WILL ALL BE WEARING A BLUE SUIT SOON ANYWAY. AND THEN THEY WILL HAVE TO WORK WITH NCO AIRCREW, BECAUSE THEY DON'T HAVE ENOUGH PILOTS TO FLY THIER PUMAS CH-47'S EH101'S AS IT IS.

We do work with excellent NCO aircrew everyday! If they pay me the same and take away all the other niff naff I have to do, I might go back.......

Slightly out of phase but I'll ask anyway,
Any truth in rumour control that the WAH 64D delivery is being delayed?

If true anyone know why.....or can't we discuss it here! :rolleyes:

[This message has been edited by Master baiter (edited 08 February 2000).]

A new aircraft - delayed? Surely not.

As one who qualified on course 173 at Middle Wallop it is very interesting to see how life has changed.

Back in 1965 the ONLY difference between and NCO and an Officer pilot was the pay!!!

M....things have changed since your day, now its pure ability that is the main difference.
I'll leave it up to you to work out which way round! :)

TICU,

Word has it that the RAF pilot appointer has over a hundred qualified pilots from the other Services wanting to get into the RAF to fly helicopters. Of those over 60 are AAC pilots who can clearly see some greener grass!
The RAF isn't really 'short' of pilots, thats why it's not had to take up many of these applications. The only thing that they are becoming very short of is experience due to the increased turnover rate.
Regarding whether the RAF is "jealous" of the Apache, I'm sure there are few pilots who wouldn't want to fly it. This perception of jealousy is fuelled by the general belief that the Apache may be too complex for the REME and some of the AAC pilots and consequently it will take a very long time to generate a good operational capability - it doesn't mean that only the RAF could make it work!!
Look at the Americans; they keep their Apaches flying and some of their crews have a good capability, however, these are in the minority - remember Kosovo. They have hundreds and hundreds of ac but what's their serviceability rate?
What will have to change (and people at the top know it) are some of the attitudes in the AAC, particularly the Soldier First.... blah.

Dear TICU, lets get a few things straight. Frankley, the rotary side of Royal Air Force does not want the Apache or the CAS associated with it. SH fleet carry out their mission to support the Army in a truley professional manner. As to manning, the front end and rear end crewing for the SH fleet is in reasonable order. Sure there is a shortfall (as there is in all three services), however the RAF (and the Navy I may add) is not in the deficit currently held by the AAC. As to Army SNCO/JNCO aircrew. No one doubts their ability as aircrew, they have been tested at RAF Cranwell found suitable form training and successfully passed the APC. If YOU want a Commission in the Armed Forces be it in the AAC, the Navy or the Royal Air Force you have to prove your worth and earn it. Have you got what it takes, take a long look at yourself and then truthfully answer that question. Also, please correct me if I am wrong, but the JHC was originally an Army concept and believe me, you are safe in your own colour of uniform. The Apache will stay with the Army and will (eventually) be a success, no doubt with Army SNCO's crewing it. However please enjoy the exercises in Poland, Im told its nice this time of year, with snow and all the potatoes you can eat.

And finally, yes the Apache program seems to have moved to the right. I am reliably informed that the first one (Apache) arrives on March 31st and then departs off to Boscombe on April 1st. The next one does not then arrive until August/September time due to Westlands being a little behind.

PS; TICU, writing in capitals is tantamount to shouting and considered somewhat rude in most forums. Also either get a spool chucker or dictionary to help with the spelling. http://www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/tongue.gif

[This message has been edited by HeliAv8tor (edited 11 February 2000).]

[This message has been edited by HeliAv8tor (edited 12 February 2000).]

[This message has been edited by HeliAv8tor (edited 12 February 2000).]

How on earth do do "they" think we can cope with the Apache when we can't keep our current fleet in the air due to lack of money, parts and manpower to maintain them.

An interesting time lies ahead.......how long before someone mentions the re-birth of the Royal Flying Coprs!

Hugh, old chap,
I am very interested in this concept of the "Royal Flying Coprs". Might I be correct in thinking that this is some of almagamation of the Special Branch Royalty protection division, Flying Squad and Police Aviation.
Good thinking, excellent initiative. You are the kind of Man that HM PPRuNe is looking for. Save the taxpayer money, efficiency, all that sort of stuff.
Good Work, great idea. ;)

Oh dear. Can you tell me where you got your spell checker from HeliAv8tor because, Frankley it,s abillity to sucessfully spoll chick is truley limited, all things concidered.

What did you edit I wonder!!!!

[This message has been edited by PurplePitot (edited 12 February 2000).]

Cyclic Hotline.........not quite,

By amalgamating the AAC and RAF, the figures would imply: more serviceable aircraft, more current and competent aircrew and less spares problems.

Of course, the old farts in charge would have to be thinned out a bit, but I fear it would be the ex Army that would lead such a re-born force.

One of the bonuses is that all NCO aircrew would have to be commissioned, or at the very least become Warrant Officer spec aircrew............no chance!

Hugh

Purple Pilot, ah, ha, you noticed the deliberate mostikes, very astute. I wonder what did you edit?

With reference to the JNCO and SNCO aircrew subject, i don't believe that there is really an alternative as they are a much cheaper method of crewing aircraft. And they are more likely to like it and lump it and get on with their job!

heliav8tor i wish you wouldnt refer to the WAH64D's job as CAS, because if you bothered to look into its role then you would see it is not CAS. But much the same as the good old LYNX. ANTI ARMOUR. As for SH I only wished that the crews would realise that they are there as battlefield taxi's. That is not meant to sound condescendings but truthful. After all it was the army that funded the SH fleet.
as for the date sliping sideways the program is still on course, with boscombe having three aircraft by june00 thats from ETPS themselves.

Dear roprick, thank you. Apart from the so called "Battle of Box Hill" when did the Anti-Armour Lynx of the AAC shoot anything other than various targets on ranges. The so called "battle" was cardboard decoys. You (the AAC) have yet to engage a target that shoots back!

As to SH being battlefield taxis, if you call the ability of the Chinook HC2 to lift 9.5 Tonne with full fuel in support of the Army a taxi, then I bow to your superior knowledge. The Lynx and the Gazelle seem to carry out the battlefield taxi role on a regular basis, when serviceable that is.

Lets face it we are all support of the guys on the ground and I hope we all do it to the best of our ability.

Can I draw your attention to the Battle for Objective Platinum on 26 Feb 1991 where I believe tanks and MTLBs were destroyed by AAC Anti-tank Lynx?

------------------
Never Pass Gas.....

[This message has been edited by Pete O'Tewbe (edited 13 February 2000).]

Hi Torque Throbber. Your post is guaranteed to excite the chaps somewhat! Can I say that I retired last year as a WO2 having flown various types in the AAC for the last 20 years, my final pay cheque put me on 37K plus or minus, which equates to a regular non flying (non flying pay at least) Major with some four years seniority. Your sums simply don’t add up old boy. How was I cheaper?

What p*****s me off of course is the miserly pension that reflects rank and not pay but that’s another story……..

Like it or lump it? It took me 13 weeks from start to finish to get my ATP, I am now on the same pay as when I left plus a wedge in the bank and a fat(ish) pension. You of course can stag on in Kosovo – Well Done!!!