Why not operating an russian helicopter?
 

I wonder why russian helicopters are not very common in Europe and the USA.

On the other hand European and American helicopters are not very common in Africa and parts of Asia.

Why is this so?

Are there differences in the maintenance sequences?

What are the cost differences between western and eastern machines, and how does it depend on the location?

I hope somebody can help me understand the world of helicopters.

Regards…

Maintenance is a very good starting point.

I hired a Mi-8 in Kamchatka for $1050USD per hour.

It is because they are not approved by European JAA & US FAA aviation authorities.

That does not mean they cannot be approved but it is very expensive process and for the Russians the market in Europe is simply not big enough to bother.

I have myself flown Russian Mi17 and visited the factory in Kazan. Excellent helicopters and very nice to fly.

I remember we discussed that we would need some huge hangars to house the beasts and the Russians would just look at each other and talk a bit in Russian! Then they asked us why in the world we would want to put them in hangar.. they are designed to be parked outside and are not hangared f.ex in Siberia :)

12,000 kg (26,455 lb) MTOW and a payload of 4,000 kg (8,820 lb)
for $ 1050 USD/h is not that expensive.

Which western Helicopter would be comparable in the class of th Mi-8?

I did some Mi-2 and Mi-8 flying in Russia a couple of years ago. With an instructor, the Mi-2 cost me about the same as R22 self-fly hire in the UK, and the Mi-8 was about twice that. So...maybe £150 dual for the Mi-2, £300 for the Mi-8, roughly; I can't remember exactly.

AS332 Super Puma and Sikorsky S61 are both "Light" helicopters compared to the Mi8 & Mi17 series at about 9000 kgs but they probably cost about $ 5.000 USD/hr.

So the Russian helicopters are much cheaper to hire or operate but then again they don´t have to pay European wages.

The actual payload and range of the Mi-8 put it exactly in the S-61/S-92 class.

The biggest reason for the lower prices per hour is the state of the Russian economy, as well as that of the former client states that carry enormous amounts of spares, willing to sell them for literally cents on the dollar. There is nothing inherently "unsafe" about the classic Russian designs, but there is much that simply does not meet the standard of a modern western helo. The design philosophy was to build rugged, cheap to buy, cheap to operate military aircraft (the "civil" models have a paint job) that did a good job of ferrying hundreds of thousands of troops in battle. The massive Russian war machine was equipped with about 5,000 operational Mi-8's and about half that of Mi-24 gunships.

The overhaul times are awful, the airworthiness control of spares is practically nil (Chinese knockoffs made in bicycle factories are world-wide nightmare for the Mil guys) and their accident rate is eye-watering. They are used in the former Soviet client states because that is what they are used to and what they can afford (a legacy of how very successful Communism was, frankly, to everyone who embraced it!)

I have the deepest respect for the folks who made these machines (I am friends with Dr. Marat Tischenko, chief designer of the Mi family for 2 decades and Gorgen Karapetyan, their former chief pilot). The newest generation of Russian designs will have the design features, certification basis and maintenance controls to compete world-wide, I am sure.

Besides the facts mentioned before I think the biggest problem is the fuel consumption. As fuel prices keep increasing day by day there is just no way to operate any Russian helicopter in an economic way.

Adding to the problem is the lack of operational control / training of some of the Russian pilots - not all of them, but the bad ones do give a lot of others a poor reputation.
One operator who does have Russian helicopters (VIH Logging in Victoria, BC) has had excellent success with them with Canadian pilots. One of their comments when they were getting checked out by the Russian pilots was that they never saw the helicopter started the same way twice, even by the same pilot.
Checklists? why would you want to use a checklist???
Once they sorted out the spares situation, they are really racking up the hours, and the machines perform very well. But it was very very long road to get to Canadian approval.

Hehe.. now be serious guy´s :suspect:

However the Russians can provide first class training if customers want it. At Kazan we asked how much time it would take to get type rating in the Mi17, they said the school was 3 months!! say WHAT!

Yes apparantly the pilots go through the same course as the mechanics (engineers) for the first 2 months and then they start flight specific training for the last month.

I have also flown the Mi17 simulator in St. Petersburg and it´s really good although not a full motion simulator but seriously even when flying the excellent full motion sims at Flight Safety you hardly notice if they are taken off motion for instructor replacement etc.

http://iserit.greennet.gl/waltere/mih5b_resize.jpg

Thanks: Another St Ivian, figured it out finally
;)

There you go, Aesir...

http://www.kazanhelicopters.com/upload/mih8b.jpg

;)

I read that the average fuel consumption per hour of a Mi-8 is about 800 Liters.
How much does an S-61/S-92 need in an hour?

Is the overhaul schedule different of a Mi-8 in comparison to a “western” helicopter?
When these machines are designed to be operated in remote areas, do they have 100h/300h etc. controls or do they have a “big” overhaul after a certain time?
I hope you understand what I try to say.

It would be interesting to hear about the differences in the maintenance schedule.

The fuel consumption of the MI8 T is around 800 litres per hour. Maintenace ispections are on a 75 hour cycle, ie 75, 150, 225 etc.

Each inspection can be carried out within 20 hours of the 75 hour time limit, ie the 75 can be done between 55 and 95 hours.

Aircraft are flown with 2 pilots and a flight engineer.in Russia. The engineer usually performs the start and shutdown. He sits on the jump seat.

The pilot seats have no shoulder harness and the jump seat has no seat belt of any description!!

Does this mean the minimum crew of a Mi-8 is 2?
One pilot and an engineer?

Can a Mi-8 be operated by a single pilot without the engineer?

No minimum crew is 3! Two pilots and flight engineer.

Major overhaul is at 1500 hrs, similar to many western helicopters, there is no scheduled component replacement within the 1500 hrs except for some component in the tailrotor at 800 hrs.

Mi-8
 

Well, how much would an MI-8 cost per hour if the aircraft would be operated in western Europe? Tried to find some information about BSF (Berliner Spezialflug) but could not come up with a good answer.:{

BSF (Berliner Spezialflug) seems to be complete or nearly complete out of business. It's impossible in Europe as a german and LBA-JAA guided and pressed company to compete with russians also with operating russian helicopters. Some years ago their price was round about 3500€ would means at the moment 4375 USD per hour to get their Mi-8.

It's not the russian helicopter making the absolutely low price it's the way to operate the ship and under which circumstances.

It's also impossible to get a permission to operate newer russian ships in Germany because of the strict "NO" by the german authorities because of lacking western type certifications.

They junked more than 80 eastgerman Mi-8 after the reunification.

A lowtime ex-eastgerman Mi-8 exploded 2002 in the Pinewood Studios to bring fire in to "007" :)

A german project to convert very cheap ex marine Mi-14 helicopters to 4000 liters "Helitankers" also flopped because of "european problems".
http://www.sonnet.com/usr/wildfire/mi14-1.jpg

BSF & MI-8s
 

Thanks Tecpilot...:ok:

Which russian helicopters have a FAA/JAA certification?

I know about the Ka-32 in Switzerland and Canada.
Mi-8 in Germany

Any more?

None of them! Only special and limited permissions by the local authorities i believe.

A FOCA limited permission (Switzerland) is no FAA/JAA certification.

The Mi-8 in Germany are limited and counted former eastgerman helicopters. No new possible after the reunification.

There was a modification of the hydraulics to meet european standards, and then the machines got their swiss certification.

Swiss certification as said by FOCA and limited to aerial work. It's impossible to register this ships in other european countries.
Or do you mean with modifications on the hydraulics the ships meet western (JAA/FAA) standards? :) To meet the JAR/FAR 29 standards the ships must be completely new designed...

Hi Tecpilot,

as far as I know BSF is back to business. They finally managed to find some money to get the required overhauls done and are back up in the air flying.

Do you know if those two demonstrators of the above MI 14 are still "based" in Sacramento?

Is it to keep the russians off the FAA/JAA market, or are these helicopters really that far away of our standards?

Concerning Russian helicopters in JAA/EASA, I remember this article, describing how Malta Air Charter had to stop operating their leased Mil-8 at the time Malta entered JAA because they don't comply with JAR-OPS 3 ..

Link to article: http://www.airmalta.com/page.jsp?id=4248&siteid=1

For what I know, spanish HeliSureste is now operating on Malta with a Bell 412 ..

We sometimes tend to believe that Europe is so important that everyone will want to sell helicopters here ;)

But from my discussions with the Russian Kazan helicopters that they are not really very interested in certifing the Mi17 in Europe. Mainly because of cost and that the market is not big enough for return on the investment. They are also concerned that western operators and customers would be biased against Russian helicopters and that it would be a tough market to come into anyway.

What has to be done basically in the overhaul, that makes this so extremely expensive?

In the major overhaul at 1500 hrs everything is replaced and I mean EVERYTHING! Including the wiring harness, engines of course and all rotating components.

It´s pretty much the same process as the Robinson overhaul. You have pretty much a new machine after the overhaul.

I have flown machines straight out of the overhaul and there were no snags, absolutely none! The quality of workmanship at the established overhaul centers is second to none.

I am in no way an expert on the Mi17 but I was impressed by the quality of work and professionalism by the factory and the overhaul centers I have visited. Just because some operators don´t put much work into the paint on their machines does not mean that they are no good.

I have been offered jobs flying the Mi17 but the pay is usually not very good because of the availability of Russian pilots. The pay is the only reason why I´m not flying Mi17 now.

In 92-93 ,I have had to deal and fly on MI 8 AMT (or MI 17-1) built by Ulan Ude production factory...really a great helicopter perfectly adapted to tough conditions....and I don't think one of our "westerner" equivalent could have done the same job so easily. Neverheless, talking about "our"certification standarts, everything, except maybe performances is out target.
Life times are so terribly short because this helicopter has been initialy designed to comply with military standarts for a battlefield with almost no maintenance. A factory engineer told me the life times could probably be extented , but at this time no real study had been done in this matter.
Latter, I have seen civil Mi17s operating in South America, with great efficiency once again in difficult conditions
As I have already quoted in a previous post I only regreat not to have taken a type qualification and flown them after my "russian tour"

With more than 100 flighthours on Mi-8's as pilot and a/c commander on the most common operations day/night and IFR including firing unguided missiles ;) i think the ship is ok, but it never comes to the western standard of such a/c in this weight limits.

May be some of you guys, usually flying lighter ships are impressed, but the ship must be compared with Super Pumas or other really big helicopters.

The avionics are on a level 1970 including AP, 1500 h for a full job TBO is crazy, the engine reaction time is the lowest i have ever seen on turbine helicopters. There is a sentence " For gods sake don't pull the collective more than 1° per second!!!". The oil and fuel consumption is adventurous. The cabin is cluttered, more than 90 switches and circuit breakers.
The ship is cheap, it's cheap built, completely without modern material. The hydraulics have only one tank. In case of a single hydraulic failure it's better to land immediately before you run out of hydraulic fluid. The ship is old, constructed in the sixties and due to the changes in Russia and the world and the market with thousends of Mi-8's, design changes in the last 20 years are marginal.
The market is overflooded with thousends of ships, with and without papers, ex- mil and civ ships. Nobody knows from which sources the older ships come, bogus parts, overtimed "refreshed" parts, nobody have control. For a few bucks you can have anything on the papers in russia you need.
Lets swarm Whirly about their times in Russia, about the few bucks (R-22 price) she paid proud for "Twins". Nobody knows if her flighttimes now even could be found in the a/c books. May be it was only a little private business by some guys on a desolate airfield. The new and old owners have only one intention, making some dollars in this "eastern pioneer times".
But this is not the problem of the ships. It's the market.
Who thinks the ship is to operate with 1050 USD per hour is mad. Thats only the price for the 3 man crew, the 2-3 mechanics and the needed fuel. Wow, I forgot the price for a eraser to bring new hours to the ship :)
The absolutely best part on this ship is the perfect kerosene heater, making the ships cabin on OAT -30° in a few minutes hot like hell - on the ground without running engines!

:ok:

Sorry Guys/Gals and Nick Lappos,

BUT NONE OF THE ABOVE IS CORRECT!

The reason we don't see Russian Helicopters such as the MI-8, MI-17, MI-26, KA-32 in use in the west is for one simple reason.....NO PAPER TRAIL!

We tried in the 90's to certify an MI-8 MTV for western service but because we could not satisfy the west that the T/R for instance came fro MI, not the local MI managers second cousins tractor factory, we could not certify the helicopter.

I understand that Kamov is now producing a FAA/CAA/TC certified version of the 32 that will put 61's/64's and all other contenders out of the heavy lift business!

I can remember flying formation with a KA-32 in the North Sea and seeing him wave goodbye and accelerate to 190Kts+ as he left us in his dust to go back to Mother.

:eek: OffshoreIgor :eek:

Canadian operator Vancouver Island Helicopters (VIH) owns three Ka-32As as part of its more than 80 helicopter fleet, one of which has flown more than 10,000 hours. The Vancouver-owned Ka-32As are the only examples of their type in North America.Modifications required to obtain Canadian certification included dual hydraulics, updated instrument package and firewalls on the air-start APU. The result is a unique Ka-32A11BC model number that signifies a Kamov Ka-32 acceptable for Canadian registration. Currently, the Ka-32 cannot be registered in the U.S., but Kamov is working on obtaining an FAA type certificate in the future. The swiss model isn't the same as the canadian. Both are unique ships, different from another.
This is impossible, the koax main rotor system on the Ka-32 doesn't allow speeds greater than 140-145kt.

Sorry Tecpilot,

We were doing 150 and his departure rate on our Radar was 40 kts. Simple Math. Oh yeah I forgot......VNE to a Russian means Nada.

What types do you fly and how fast do you really think they go. I used to be with MTF.

:eek: OffshoreIgor :eek:

The PZL Sokol does have western Type certificate

http://www.pzl.swidnik.pl/AN2000/01_...ellytank_3.jpg

That´s an interesting helicopter. Does anyone know of any operated by JAA or FAA operators?

A PZL Sokol W-3A is operated by the saxonian police in Germany. First they operated 2 but sadly they lost one including crew in january 2005 may be due to LTE. The single pilot was absolutely unexperienced, with 300h completely and 30 on type, not to understand. Have it flown first on a visit in Swidnik in 1992 before the western certification and later again. Can confirm it's interesting, but the TBO's are also low. The ship is also cheap and in my opinion more worth to do a look on it as to the russian ships. PZL isn't very great and fast with spare parts but they have the things better under control than the russians. The W-3A is a nice and strong ship FAA and JAA approved, completely western avionics, glass cockpit, FLIR, NVG, Hoist, nearly anything you want, up to 14 pax, or VIP, nice to fly but MTOW is also more than 6to on a payload round about 2to.
If anybody is interested on eastern models thats the only ship i would take a look.

Tecpilot

I'm curious as to why you chose that name as your posts dont reflect that level.

My online name says it all, I fly offshore with 8000 hrs on Sikorsky.

Not a dis but I'm really curious.

:eek: OffshoreIgor :eek:

offshoreigor

I'm so sorry about your critics. What do you expect on the forum or from my side? Filling pages technical blah-blah?

Ok,i try one:

Technical report engine TV2-117A used on russian helicopters Mi-8:

The engine is left turning, the empty weight ist 332,5 kg.
Power: 1100 KW limited to 6 minutes on a max T4 850°C
880 KW limited to 60 minutes on a max T4 790°C
735 KW unlimited on a max T4 600°C
RPM: Compressor: 21.200
Powerturbine: 12.000 means 95,3% indication in %

Compressorstage: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10
Number of blades: 21 23 33 45 49 53 57 55 55 57

The angle of the statorblades on stage 1-3 is changeable with a servo working pressure 2750kPa...

Sorry offshoreigor i'm tired...

Haha... :) Good one tecpilot.

tecpilot & offshoreigor:

So... 50 kts of tailwind?
You are discussing about IAS and Ground Speed, aren't you? ;)

190 Kts with a KA32 !!!! looks to me more like a free fall speed for this type of helicopter designed for anti submarine ops. Russians used to nickname this helicopter " the sabre dance" I am trying to imagine these long blades sailing and drag at this airspeed !