Something mysterious in Snowdonia
 

There were lots of chaps (and I presume chapesses) having a great time in Robinsons various in Snowdonia today. We got airborne from Valley to a walker with a broken ankle/leg at the back of Snowdon and made a blind call on 121.5 to alert them to our presence. As a precaution we asked the ARCC to establish a TDA around the area and this was broadcast on 121.5 also. After we had landed back at Valley we talked to someone from the mountain flying party who asked what mysterious thing was happening at Snowdon. He also said that probably only one of the instructors was sharp enough to listen out on 121.5 - one out of 5 or 6!
A Temporary Danger Area is an airspace control measure used to protect situations from unwanted aerial activity and they are almost always established for overland SAROPs.
None of the helis in the area were any problem and I hope they enjoyed their flying (and probably a few beers afterwards), but I was surprised at the lack of understanding of TDAs and lack of monitoring of an emergency frequency. Please tell me this is not normal amongst GA pilots.

Crab,

Civilian aircraft usually do not have the ability to monitor Guard (121.5/243.0) frequencies as do military aircraft. It is not a normal practice to do so anywhere in the world that I know of. It would be a good practice but probably impractical for Robinsons which usually will have just the one radio. There are other frequencies that require monitoring for normal operations.

If a TDA is put into effect and one is out of touch for good reason....how would you know of it....and thus be able to comply with the restrictions.

We have a similar problem here in the States regarding TFR's...which can be called for any number of reasons. If you are out in the 'bush", it gets awfully hard to keep track of these things even if you have all the best of intentions.

Or....am I off base here?

Not current on UK Airspace regs, particularly those pertaining to what the Mil used to call the Snowdonia MFTA, but if it's class G or H airspace then not only do they not need to monitor 121.5, they probably don't even need to have a radio at all. Standard VFR see-and-avoid.

Fully open to correction if this airspace is classified differently of course.

I agree, no requirement to monitor. However, if one sees military or SAR aircraft, you should switch through the various frequencies.

In the United States there is no requirement to monitor any particular frequency while in uncontrolled airspace. Most pilots monitor the local airport channel. For remote areas maybe 122.9 might get somebody.
Canada has (or had) a neat system where everybody monitored and chatted on 126.7, I think , so inflight help was easy. Been about 30 years or so since I crossed into Canada and with the hassles involved since 911 I doubt I will go again soon. But the common channel for calling anybody nearby seem like a good idea to me.

I fly for a helicopter logging company, obviously we don't use R22s ;) but we always monitor 121.5, granted that we are equiped with duplicate radios. However, when i was a flight instructor i always installed in my clients to always monitor that freq. when on long segments of CC flights, when not near a CTAF or tower.

Something to think about

Cody

There isn't a requirement to monitor 121.5 in the UK the only country I know who advise it is France.

I know who the company are who was operating there and I would have thought they were using a company frequency (This would make sense in regard to safety, Lots of helicopter close together on a mountain flying course)

This said it also makes sense if you see a military helicopter in close proximity in this type of situation to listen out on 121.5

Crab, does the ARCC tell London/Scottish Information that a TDA has been set up(not Notamed), as most people would possibly be using that service,.? And don`t I recall there is a `remote site` frequency--122.95? that people should use? Syc..

crab: when setting up a TRA / TDA I normally inform the local ATC unit who maybe giving a flight information service to GA in the area, and follow it up with the paperwork later. But in class G airspace not everyone will be in receipt of such a service (due to a number of reasons), so do not expect everyone to get the message.

I fly for the police in the southern UK and it is not unusual for GA to join me (while orbiting an incident) to see what I'm looking at :uhoh:

Well surely when operating in mountainous areas in the UK, it's advisable to be in contact with the local information frequency at all times? Surely this is basic advice for any pilot flying any machine?

Crab

Just for your info, there will be another mountain flying course (from a different flying school) operating in that area from Saturday 2nd July to Monday 4th July. There will be R22s, Jetrangers, Gazelles, H500s and Scouts as far as I know.

I'll see if I can get them to monitor 121.5 :ok:

I am a little surprised that any VHF radio installed in an aircraft nowadays does not allow the user to use one frequency whilst monitoring 121.5 - maybe I am just used to mil spec radios. Just for the sake of self preservation I would want to be able to receive important safety messages even if I am just bimbling around in class G airspace.
The guys on their heli detachment were using a company frequency known only to them but to their credit they had phoned Valley ops to notify them of the activity. Unfortunately for us, Valley ops shut up shop for the weekend and the info wasn't passed to us regarding the Saturday flying (an internal ****up that will be addressed). A notam or CANP would have been much better and then the whole world would have known they were there.
Since they were using a company frequency, they would not, unless they had a second radio, have been able to monitor any ATC - whether it be Canaerfon Radio (the closest and their refuel point) or London info; they would not know what was happening around them if they couldn't monitor guard.
Now, to put this in perspective, I am not at all worried about R22s around a SAROP in Snowdonia - we can all lookout and avoid each other but what about a major incident, whether it be terrorist or natural disaster? Any GA pilot could just drift into a very sensitive and potentially hazardous situation just because he didn't have the ability or desire to monitor an emergency frequency - it just doesn't seem good practise or airmanship to me.

Crab,

I'm surprised, that you are surprised! I can't think of a standard civvie VHF radio that is set up to monitor guard, nor anyone who does so as a matter of routine. The airlines tend to keep their third VHF on 121.5, but it gets misused as a result; almost like "Crab Common" ;) Most commercial GA helicopters would have 2 VHF's, but the second is more likely to be on a company frequency than on 121.5.

With Australia slowly dragging itself into the late 20th Century for airspace management, we're finding the issue of communication more of a problem. Last year some bright spark in Airservices Australia actually removed all the frequencies from VFR charts, because he/she/it decided that non IFR aircraft didn't need to know area frequencies as it would then clutter up the airwaves :rolleyes:

Likewise, I've not flown any light civvie aircraft in the UK with a radio that allows guard (or any other frequency) to be monitored in parallel with the working frequency. It is not uncommon practice for aircraft with two radios to monitor guard on the second (I certainly do on long hops), but by no means a published one.

In the area you mention there are other issues as well of-course. Firstly anybody operating below the peaks in a light fixed or rotary is likely to have at-best intermittent contact with any LARS provider. Secondly you can expect a lot of non-radio traffic: mainly paragliders, but potentially also hang-gliders, PPG and microlights - none of which are required to carry a radio, and in the first three categories the pilots were never required to pass either an airlaw or radio exam either.

So, I'd guess that the effect of a TDA, promulgated by radio, in Snowdonia, is probably what you saw - some subsequent gossip but very little effect on the actual traffic.

G

Crab: two things if I may:

I am your friendly neighbourhood police chopper. Down the road at Caernarfon is the north wales air ambulance. Between us we probably do around a 100 HEMS jobs into/out of the mountains, especially this time of year. We do training with all the MRT's we evn on the odd occasion do joint ops with yourselves in the hills! Other than the odd serious incident (plane crash, major rescue), we have never had the need for initiating a TDA????

Why did you initiate one for a broken ankle:confused: :confused:

All those pilots enjoying a day out around the most beautiful parts of the UK and you tell them to bugger off?
Massive overkill if you ask me.

Secondly - we don't even monitor 121x5!! Especially in the hills - no signal!! No-one else on it except london information above 3000' AMSL.
We always listen out on Caernarfon because of all the puddle jumpers with great success (all those wazzing the cafe at Snowdon are on Caernarfon freq.)
And we always listen out on Valley radar, for my best mates the fast jets (not).
We've got our own for you if we want to talk direct.
Civvies certainly don't listen out on 121x5 in them thar hills, I can guarantee that!

Sabre Zero 1 (fancy call sign!). Have you notam'd your movements for next week?
We would certainly expect to hear about your activities one way or another. Are you basing yourselves somewhere?
Give the police a call and they'll give you our landline number - give us a call? We have an op in the hills on the 2nd.
Don't bother with 121x5, listen out on valley frequency constantly.

Excuse my ignorance here with CAA requirements for Public Transport helicopters, but I would assume that dual VHFs would have been one of them, so there shouldn't be a problem monitoring the emergency frequency.
When we were training we were taught that it was a good idea to monitor 121.5, as it is the frequency over which ELTs broadcast, especially when flying cross country and over hostile terrain.
Even when flying tours I have 121.5 selected on back up.
Another good reason to do so is that if your machine is fitted with an ELT, on shut down tune in to see if the G switch hasn't been inadvertantly activated - it will save valuable SAR resources from being wasted and you a red face when they show up at your hangar.

It seems to me that the TDA system as it stands does not work for short term SAROPS. How effective is VHF/UHF for warning of TDAs is of no use, especially for low level traffic in remote, hilly terrain? Robinsons are one thing, fast jets are quite another - I would be very surprised if there hasn't been a case of a military jets innocently busting TDAs.

Interested in the selection of 121.5, particularly as low level coverage is poor to the North and West of Manchester (according to the AIP). If I was aware of a Sea King on SAROPS in the vicinity, I would have chosen 123.1 to listen to on my solitary radio rather than 121.5. Obviously the scene of search frequency is no longer used.

Sandy,

Very few R22s are public transport - I have never seen an R22 with two radios. The R44s that I have flown which were public transport only had one radio. I think (and I am open to be corrected on this one) it is flight conditions ie IFR/VFR and airspace that dictates how many radios are carried.

Crab,

Why don't you get your outfit to provide you an opportunity to fly with the Police, EMS, and civilian operators out there in the real world....and see how things work outside your own small closed world. It might prove enlightening. Lots of other people fly helicopters and do so in a professional manner....and most of them are not SAR pilots. Maybe your outfit would benefit from that exchange....thinking outside that proverbial box works you know.

What provoked you to request a TDA for that flight....was it seeing the Robbies in the vicinity of your flight? Was the TDA Notam'ed....if so it would have been after the end of your flight and surely not during the flight itself one would think?

I can only agree with most of the previous comments. 121.5 would be low on my list of priorities. If Valley was operational, that would be my first choice - otherwise I would go with Caernarfon, as the nearest operational ATC service. Even then, if I had only 1 comm box, these would get dropped for some company frequency for some of the time.

The reason that it would be low priority is that I woud not expect any transmissions I made on it to be received by a ground station, due to the terrain. I would expect to get more useful information about other traffic either from Valley (or even from Caernarfon).

In the hills, you would not expect reliable comms on any VHF frequency anyway, so see and avoid would be the watchword.

Within the UK what would be the legal status of a TDA declared in this manner if it were not promulgated to the users of the airspace in which it was located in a manner where they could use it in their flight planning?

How could one be in violation of something you would have no way of knowing about due to the fact the government was not able to ensure all aircraft and pilots were able to access such notifications as were made and the government was unable to make contact with all air traffic then in-flight in the area?

If, as I understand it to be from earlier posts, there was no requirement of an aircraft to monitor any radio frequency for the area, then how could the government know all airborne traffic had been alerted? A collateral issue would be....how long is it from the time a pilot requests the issuance of a TDA does the appropriate authority actually act upon the request and then begin the notification process?

If a request for the creation of a TDA is sent....who is the proper authority to issue the TDA? Can a TDA be issued by a pilot on-scene or must it be a decision made by someone higher in the food chain rather than the on-scene pilot?

We are on the fax list for when TDA/TRAs are set up. (I'm amazed this service isn't available by email.)
The most active areas for these suddenly appearing are northern England and Scotland.
It is not unusual to have 3 of these promulgated in a day. This fact alone made me inquisitive.....and as the notification contains no details of what the "emergency" is I've been investigating a few.
Most of them relate to SAR ops - and I'm not at all certain that a TDA set up in this fashion will achieve the aims of the unit making the request.
As for Wales this weekend, the party flying was led by a band of very experienced instructors who were all aware of the TDA. And the SAR unit were aware of the mountain flying because the instructors made contact as part of their planning.
So stop stirring up a non-existent problem! If you weren't aware of the mountain flyers, how come you flew low over their hotel landing site ???!!!!!!

Crab, perhaps you are thinking of the "T/R+G" setting on your UHF/VHF box?

I concur with the other contributers in that as far as I know, this facility doesn't exist in the civvie world. Aircraft have either one VHF or two similar boxes, depending on their role / capability.

I think what you have highlighted is that the TDA is inadequate for an immediate and short term operation in Class G airspace. Even though we listen to 121.5 there is a good chance that we would miss a one-off broadcast because sod's law says we would be listening to another frequency at the time. (We normally DO revert to 121.5 for a "listen out" in transit on the "spare" box but only if we aren't already using it to talk to a minor airfield or listen to an ATIS etc, as we often need to do).

Crab being an expert in all things aviation should know that the real point of the TDA for SAROps is to protect the SAR cab from the fast, pointy boys. If Crab thinks that a bunch of R22s are a threat to another helo then the four person Sea King crew needs to sharpen up their airmanship. As SASless quite rightly points out the ability to monitor guard on a V/UHF set is purely a military capability and I would have thought that a second box on the local LARS service (if available) would be more appropriate. Quite surprisingly, although the venerable old Sea King can monitor 121.5, it (mk3) does not have a second box and is therefore somewhat less capable than most commercial civilian helos despite it quite regularly flying in Class A airspace!?

As another person has already stated, this is Class G airspace and therefore open to one and all. If I was a SAR operator I would be more worried about the student flying his hawk than a mountain flyng course. The ambulance and police manage without this protection and are far more vulnerable than a big old Sea Queen and probably do more jobs than Valley do anyway.

The last time I issued a CANP, it was infringed by a military helo!

(With a very strong Mancunian accent - that's Manchester, UK to the rest of you.)
"You see the problem is, is that the problem, you see, is that MY problem is MUCH more important, I say is MUCH MORE IMPORTANT than your problem - DO YOU SEE!"

Its ok preaching about the values of monitoring guard when you have mil spec radios that do it automatically. Even with our twin VHF fit, we are often flicking between boxes (fnarr fnarr!) to keep up with ATC. As mentioned earlier, you dont actually need ANY radio to fly in open FIR. When I can, I do, but that is a rare occurence. I would depend on a local ATC unit or London Information to pass the message.

Crab,

Why do you establish a TDA for your SAROPS? Looking at my copy of DAP/AUS/202/Legal dated 24 March 2005, I see no mention of this.

I would suggest that TDAs are established for disasters to keep out snoopers and the press.

PM me if you would like to come and see what we do in the real world.

121.5
 

Hi,

I thought that my set automatically switched to 121.5. I based this on the listening out of a full may-day conversation between an air-france airbus that helped out getting a Piper that lost a window due to bird strike to land safely in the nearest location Abbeville, (a great job btw of the crew).

Or was I listening to a relaying , nowadays it is sometimes hard to know the difference (when listening out)

So my question, the standard King in R44, does it automitacally has a listening watch on 121.5 ?


Delta3

Why on earth do you need a TDA in the MFTA - it's full of helicopters from places various every day. SARboys really need to get a life!

No

Crab must be off shift.....as evidenced by his absence here of late. Hopefully, when he comes back to work and can find time to set down the tea cup he will respond to some of the questions and invites offered in response to his original post that set off this thread. I know several of us are very interested in how he views the situation now.

It could also be he is doing some research to ensure he has the pukka gen this time.

'Back off shift' - that'll be a fair while then!

Miaaooow pussycats - it takes a while to get back from N Wales to sunny Devon but here goes:

1. I mentioned in my post about perspective and that an R22 in Snowdonia doesn't worry me at all (airmanship and lookout and all that) so all those slagging me off for being too precious can wind their necks in a bit.

2. A TDA is regularly established for an overland SAROP primarily to keep fast jets from flying into helicopters (do the police and Air ambulance not wish they could gain protection from other traffic as well?) ARCC set one up as a matter of routine and not because we asked for it - I made blind calls on 121.5 because the first we knew of the heli activity was when Caenarfon Radio told us of it - he did not know the company frequency and none of the detachment aircraft were on Caernafon at the time. So, in a vague attempt at airmanship to warn them of our impending presence I used an international emergency (and airline chat) frequency.

3. I really didn't know that civvy radios do not have a TR+G facility and find it rather worrying - most sailors with a radio listen out on channel 16 in case of emergency so why don't pilots.

4. Headsethair - the bloke in the hotel (part of the det) was the one who said only one of the instructors would be sharp enough to monitor 121.5, not me. The instructors didn't contact the SAR flight to notify us, they contacted Valley Ops who are not the same thing - if you read my post I said a notam would have been the best option but this wasn't done. I don't have a beef with the detachment at all and I'm glad someone enjoyed seeing us.

5. I am constantly amused that so many operators don't see SAR as operating in the 'real world' just because we are military and not civvy, despite the fact that 95% of our jobs are rescuing civilians from non military situations.

I think everyone should monitor guard - it's there for a good reason and just because it might not be convenient to listen on it doesn't make it right.

Seeing the SAR crew in the hills and over the hotel topped off an incredible weekend. Thanks for the flypast and the general liason, it was good to know we weren't going to drop in on the big yellow machine over the next hill as I struggled with another pinnacle approach.
On the subject, the (public transport) R22 I flew didn't have the capability to monitor 121.5. Looks like a legislative issue as people just wont fit the machines with the capability unless required.

Tu154 - we would have liked to round off our weekend by joining you for the beer that was offered - maybe next time.

Crab
Protection would be nice but if UK air ambulances were to try and set up TDAs for every broken leg they went to, the country would be awash with red circles!

Generally the fast reaction time to attending these jobs means that it would be totally impractical to try and set up TDAs. They are reserved only for Major Incidents in the Police/HEMS world.

I agree that a civvy version of TR+G would be a great idea. Both of our VHFs are taken up with monitoring local frequencies. But it's class G and keep eyeballs out.

whoateallthepies - since no-one but the military seems to observe the TDAs then all the red circles in the world won't protect you (except from FJ) - this is my point. Surely every aviator has the responsibility to monitor the emergency frequency - if no one does it, who will ever hear your call for help if you are not talking to an ATC unit?
Imagine a major terrorist action along the lines of 9-11 but in class G airspace, all the emergency services launch into action trying their best to minimise loss of life and then someone in an R22 or Cessna 172 bimbles into the area, completely unaware of what is happening as he is not monitoring 121.5, and takes out a vital lifesaving or coordinating asset who was concentrating on a complex scenario with multiple radio inputs and, just for a second, had their lookout degraded by cockpit workload.
A not entirely impossible scenario, I would suggest, when all the air assets have their eyes on the ground assessing landing areas and likely casualties and the GA pilot is rubbernecking wondering where all the smoke is coming from.
The emergency services aircraft will be talking to each other on 123.1 (yes it is still used all the time) for airborne deconfliction plus any other tasking frequency so a TDA is the only way of protecting them from traffic extraneous to the operation. Unfortunately since the CAA and everyone else seems happy that we continue to ignore the civil emergency frequency and all its potential benefits, we had better hope that nothing bad happens in the future (ostrich syndrome).

..er, no - unless perhaps you are flying in somewhere like Germany where radio is mandatory. Boy, do they hate GA over there! Crab, you'd love it. Meanwhile, where you're operating in the UK, radio is optional in Class G. If MoD documents don't explain that adequately, take a look at a UK Air Pilot or whatever they call the AIP back home on the Mudbank.

Crab,

I think you are trying to push water up hill without a pump and your comments together with some you and your colleagues have made on other threads shows holes in your knowledge in civillian ways. There is nothing wrong in that - I never knew military radios constantly monitored guard.

One of the problems with 121.5 is that ppls used to be (and may be still are) taught that reception is poor below 2000' everywhere and very patchy north and west of Manchester. Now I have no idea how true this is, but it is a perception held by many.

To up grade every civillian radio to ones that monitor guard is a non starter without regulation and to be effective would have to include balloons, gliders, microlights, hanggliders and those parachutes with fans on. Not very practical. Remember that there are huge number of aviators who do not fly with a radio at all.

Unfortunately the current TDA system is flawed, I flew unwittingly through the TDA set up for the Hatfield rail disaster, but there is no way I could have known since it was within an hour of it being first NOTAMed (and I was completely unaware of the incident, so you can't accuse me of rubbernecking). Fast jets fly through TDAs set up for SAROPs - I have seen it happen. I am sure you or at least some of your colleagues have seen it too. We can all only do our best to avoid these areas, but when they are set up at short notice and there is no guarenteed means of communicating the information to airborne craft, then TDAs will get busted.

Lordy, How do we former military aviators ever get along in civvie street? No Guard feature....never monitor 121.5 or 243.0.....much less the HF freqs. And all that SAR traffic.....thousands of the things floggin around darting around the Robbies and Pipers....whats a guy to do I ask?

If it were as important as you think Crab....would not the civilian authorities have mandated a Guard feature on VHF radio equipment? Would not the AIP or equivalent mandate a listening watch on 121.5 and thus necessitate the Guard feature?

What is complicated here? You cruise up to the mountains to fetch a broken legged walker to the hospital....probably a flight that a HEMS bird could have handled unless there was some winching involved ....you see some other helicopters in your neighborhood....go to the trouble to demand they all un-ass your area.....and it is the civvie's that are un-professional and dangers to the military?

Do I want to make the legendary PAN call or even a Mayday on 121.5 and hope someone is listening....or on a frequency I am working or was working or one that I know someone is listening to? I would suggest the Guard freq's are a military thing in practice and not something civvies are going to use with any certainty.

I also note you put emphasis upon a TDA for over-land SAR flights....what about over-water SAR flights....you do TDA's for those too?

What protocol does your SAR Coordinator use to dispatch a HEMES aircraft vice a SAR bird?