rotor brake on r22
 

is there a rotor brake light on r22 hp

? I don't think there's even a rotor brake !!

Original reply invalid; I missed the "HP" bit. I owned an HP once and it had no rotor brake. Like an idiot I would get out, lift the cowl and grasp the drive shaft to slow the rotor down. You don't do this often.

[This message has been edited by t'aint natural (edited 01 July 2001).]

All the robbies I have been in (HP included) have a rotor brake, and a caution light for said brake). Perhaps it's an option the owner didn't include on the one you were in.
------------------
Marc

[This message has been edited by RW-1 (edited 02 July 2001).]

Looked in my Logbook, driven 5 Hps incl some rebuilds from Uncle Frank's factory, non fitted with the RB, or the light to tell you it's not there!!!

In the states for training R22's its manditory for them to have rotor brakes, DOn't ask why but if you don't have one on a trainer you're in deep sh!t.

-------------

Cody

relevant again?

The two most easily corruptible things on Earth, are People and Paperwork.

Unfortunately, Aviation is founded entirely upon both of them!

And boy, are there some scum-bags out there!

[ 25 July 2001: Message edited by: Cyclic Hotline ]

Cyclic, your right, the problem is there are less Scumbags than Good folk, but it seems that everyone sooner or later is tarred with the same colour as the Scumbags, I suppose its the situation of the Uncorruptable man, he's the one who takes the highest price!

Safe Landings ;)

Lu
I instruct on several types, the R22 being but one of them and I like many others have followed your posts with intrest and concern, I and fellow Pilots and Passengers of this very capable helicopter would like to get to the very bottom of this ( if any ) problem before any more life is lost.
Therefore If you are so confident in your diagnosis of these rotor/airframe incursions why not get a time ex R22 and stick it in a whirl tunel and do your own evaluation with impartial observers to qualify and quantify the assumed destruction in a safe and controlled manor. I am sure that you can raise the funding of this test. I for one would donate as much as I am able, it would create a flurry of legal claims if Proven and you can exonerate yourself and possible many more fellow aviators that unfotunatly are unable to post this request.

I am not saying you are wrong, I just hope that you are.

Take this in the manor its meant "either P*ss or get of the pot" :rolleyes:

MaxNg, Good morning,

Good idea of yours, are there any wind tunnels that are capable of taking the ultimate impacts that would be generated with the possible break up of the R22, or are you thinking of something else.

Vfrpilotpb
Sorry not my field of expertese but I am sure that Lu Z would know of a suitable test station that could take a full size or at least a scaled down version, this might seem a little simplistic but it would not be to difficult to strap down a T/ex R22 on a rotating base downwind of large fan and simulate the effects of sidslip with radio controlled servos operating the cyclic and collective and a bolsa wood fin attatched to the top side of the tail boom this would irrifutably record the extent of disk flapping that combinations of wind Speed/azimuth/ Rrpm/cyclic imputs create, Like I said if this subject is to be resolved then it will take more than just theory to convince people. What is the alternative? years and years of debate?

Stand well back though!!!!!

:mad:

Imabell,
Just wanted to remind you of one thing regarding one of your earlier posts. You said:

"In the case of one in flight accident that i have been able to investigate point to one main rotor blade stiking the tail boom in a flat position not a severing motion as if the blade had a normal pitch angle."

Don't forget that at the rear of the heli, the blade will have a nearly-flat pitch unless there is a large lateral cyclic input. Yanking back on the stick will decrease (make negative) the blade angle on the left side, more or less, not the rear. I'm guessing that due to tranverse flow effect, there will be a somewhat positive blade angle in the rear quadrant (more so than the front).

If I missed your point, then ignore. ;)

The NR Fairy posted this web site: http://www.casa.gov.au/airsafe/fsa/d...9nov/FSA45.pdf
about an R22 accident.

Nick sez:
This is a really troublesome report. At face value seems to be a simple case of over flying the allowable life of the blades, a point the author, Bernie Hole, makes abundantly clear is his opinion as the cause of the fatal accident. This is simply not true, and is a problem for any Robinson driver.

The blade failed with a severe crack at 2257 hours, 257 hours past its retirement time. This is unconscionable that it was allowed in the air after its retirement, and is certainly terrible practice BUT the crack had existed for many hundreds of hours (1100 flights or so) and this is also very troubling.

The retirement time is intended to cover a safe interval during which no unserviceable condition will develop, so that no cracks should be found at retirement, let alone hundreds of hours earlier.

Several possibilities exist - that the part was abused in some way that was not accounted for in its original certification, that it had considerably more time that the logged 2257 hours, or that it was inadequately designed and tested. The article did no service when it placed all the lessons learned squarely on the logged time, and left the obvious questions unstated and unanswered.

I wonder what the real story is. Does anyone out there know?

R22 Advice sought
 

South East UK based soon to complete JAR PPL(H), then CPL(H)wannabe seriously considering second hand R22 purchase to aid hours building. In theory leasing the machine to a nearby training school to help cover the maintenance costs.
Anyone any views/opinions on the sanity of such an idea????
Anyone done it and found any major pitfalls?
Anyone else having similar thoughts that might like to join in the madness???
Any comments gratefully received.
Cheers :)

Everything Nick said is true however there are other explanations that will clarify what happened. The manifestation of the failure was the fracture and separation of the blade. A detailed investigation by metallurgical engineers can pinpoint the cause and the length of time it took the crack to propagate.

In my line of work the analyst must create a failure in his / her mind and then determine what can cause such a failure. A big killer in helicopter and aircraft accidents is hydrogen embrittlement and faulty heat treatment and or improper vacuum degassing can cause this. Or, simply because the part was not properly heat-treated and lacked the design strength that the engineers had designed into it. Other problems stem from faulty machining and tool strikes that introduce a stress riser that will propagate into a crack.

Additional problems arise when there is lax quality control and the defect is not discovered prior to assembly of the part or the aircraft itself.

In the case of the fractured blade it may be discovered that the crack began propagating when the blade was installed on the new helicopter. It is painfully obvious that if the blade had been retired at 2000 hours the crash would not have occurred. It is just as obvious that if they had not flown that last hour it would not have happened at that time. There is another point to consider. In establishing retirement life the engineers calculate the strength to strain by taking the suggested retirement life and adding ten percent to cover those times when it is difficult if not impossible to get another set of blades or a replacement part of any kind. So if the part had been retired at 2200 hours the crash would not have happened. But, if the rate of propagation were more rapid the blade could have failed at 100 hours.

In Iran Bell maintained the 206s as 206s but when they reached retirement life or hard time for the dynamic parts those parts were maintained as OH-58 parts which had a higher retirement life for the same parts even though they were of different design. So even the big boys are guilty of what the Robinson operator did. Running his part past retirement life.

Also what Nick said it could have been the fault of the designers or someone in the shop. It is too bad that these two men died but as the saying goes “sh!t happens” and where there is sh!t you will find that in most cases it was deposited by a human being.

Here are a few examples:

While working for Bell in Iran we received a brand new 206 rotorhead and found it impossible to balance. I authorized the disassembly and inside one of the blade cuffs we found out that the machinist had hogged out part of the parent metal due to a machining error that he was correcting. He made a big brass plug and held the plug in place with screws that were inserted into the parent metal with this operation seriously effecting the strength of the part. No quality control and no mention in the part log.

Several S-76s lost blades and it was determined that the secondary of the two main loadpaths had failed and it was not detected. The shared load path was weakened by the failure and it could not react the loads on it and it separated. I believe the design was changed but this was obviously an engineering error.

In 1952 a Marine HRS (S-55) returned to base. The operations order required that the blades be folded. This required that the left blade be unlocked from the pitch horn and rotated 180-degrees. When this was done the blade broke off the helicopter. The problem was ultimately traced to a little old lady that was removing excess bonding cement from the blade. She was using an Exacto knife and had scribed a very fine line into the anodized coating on the blade spar.

On a Bell AH1-J the pilot lost tail rotor control and crashed breaking his back. The problem was that bolts that were not long enough to provide the clamping force attached one of the aft bellcranks in the tail rotor control system. The nuts backed off and the helicopter crashed.

Another AH1-J pilot lost control because his tail rotor shaft separated. A small rubber strip that was used as a water seal on the shaft cover rubbing on the shaft caused this. This helicopter and the one described above were both brand new and were on their first test flight after delivery.
On several Bell 214s the pilots complained about impreciseness in tail rotor control. The mechanics checked and found that of the four bolts holding the tail cone to the fuselage two had fractured. These bolts were supposed to be torqued dry. When the helicopters were disassembled at Bell for shipment someone put grease in the boltholes on the tail cone. During the assembly process when the bolts were inserted into the barrel nuts they picked up a coat of grease on the thread practically doubling the tensile load on the bolt at rated torque.

Sometime pilots die in aircraft accidents because they did something wrong but in many cases, it is because someone else didn’t do their job correctly.

[ 28 July 2001: Message edited by: Lu Zuckerman ]

Nick, I'm trying to get an answer to your question.

I need to verify that I'm talking about the same accident, however I suspect I'll be saying that:-

1) The aircraft was allegedly flown very aggressively for much of its life

&

2) The blade had probably flown way beyond it's life at the time when the crack started.


Sorry it will be a few days, and even then it may be as reliable as parker pen logs and hearsay.

Quidam,
I have contemplated it but there are a lot of pitfalls,:
Servicing of A/c by who ?
Insurance of hull , by who ?
will full honesty be used in reporting student pilots mistakes
will rent/lease money be paid on time,
will FTO keep up to date with fees owed to Airfield,( this could cause you to pick up big bills to get your Heli back if FTO went T*Ts up)
Just a few snags that I came up with, you may be lucky though!
My Regards

I looked at the same thing a few months ago but did not have all the spare capital available to buy one alone.

Give me an email and we can discuss it.

R22 @ $395hr...(!)
 

Could this be the worlds most expensive R22 hireage rate.
This is a BC, Canada operators standard rate.
$395 canadian per hr :eek:
But as a used car salesmen would say..."that's a whole lotta chopper for your dollar..." :rolleyes: