'Best' helicopter to learn to fly in....
 

I'm looking to get my PPL (H), and I'm interested to get the views on which is the best helicopter to learn to fly in.

The closest training centre to me is about 5 minutes up the road and they have R22s and R44s to learn in. However I've been told that the Cabri G2 is a much safer, easier helicopter to fly - that would mean travelling for 45 minutes or so to get to a centre that has those, but is that a better option? I've also heard some people say that if you learn to fly an R22 you will find flying anything else easy!?

Thanks in advance for your help.

Cheers,
Mark

Depends if you're goal is to stop at a private license. If you wish to develop as a commercial pilot and an instructor, then you'll probably have more success with the Robinsons, as there are far more of them around. Why don't you take a trial lesson in all of them ? See what you like best. They'll all be fun, that's for sure ! Good luck.

I'm currently thinking it would be a hobby, but ideally, eventually I'd like to get ratings on something with more seats so I could fly friends around.

If more seats is the goal then fly the cheapest two seater you can find.

The Robinson 22 v Cabri argument normally comes down to cost. The Cabri was designed with the r22 shortcomings in mind but it also isn't without it's pitfalls.

Go for a school with at least two helicopers of the type you learn on for a smoother learning experience.

If you are taught in the r22 then the transition will be easier to the r44 and then onto a jet ranger/505 or r66.

If you are taught on the Cabri then the only similar bigger machine is the airbus series of machines starting with the 350 or h120.

Otherwise you are into more niche machines like gazelle, bo105 and maybe the older pistons like the bell 47 or the turbine allouette.

For your training purposes fly the cheapest machine, you might save enough doing that for a type rating into a jet ranger or a 350.

The absolute best helicopter to learn to fly in, is the cheapest one you can find. Its the same license no matter which model you choose, so why pay more for it?

That being said, I have zero regrets learning to fly in an R22!

The seriousness of the school and the quality of the instructor!
.

Mmm.. not really.

I have known people who get their PPL on a Cabri, then they want to fly a 4 seater (to take people up) and its taken then 15+ hours to get used to the R44! (ie an extra £8,000)

Even the transition from the R22 to the R44 often takes more than the 5 hours for new ppl holders

The R22/Cabri is fine if you just want to diddle around the local area with 1 passenger, anything more than that (ie going somewhere in comfort/speed) and the R44 wins, so in my opinion it's best to do your PPL on the R44, so there are no extra costs after the PPL


the

Gosh that 5 minutes sounds attractive. And is that 45 minutes a real 45 min, or 45 min on a good day with the wind behind you? Real life gets in the way sometimes, and you can be amazed how much time a "1 hour" lesson can take.

It's good advice to visit the schools and see how you like them, and to check the fleet size so you have good availability.

All factors to be taken into account as well as the helicopter type.

If you can fly a Hiller you can fly anything..... :)

If you intend to fly commercially, you want something that is used commercially, and is cheap. The insurance companies don't care what the hours are in and it can be the scruffiest out there (as long as its safe of course). However, companies do care if they are faced with converting you on to something different.

Now, as to the title of the thread, the best one to learn in is the Bell 47...... but that's another thread.

In that case I would recommend the R44. It is less twitchy than the R22 and has 4 seats. Costs less than a turbine.
The Cabri has an advantage, because it is a more modern helicopter than the Robinsons, but with the resent events in Switzerland and the US, I am not that sure, it is the saver helicopter. It is certainly more crashworthy. Still a great helicopter to learn in. But for a privat pilot, the R44 is ideal.
I liked the H300, too and Bell 47 is the classic ship to learn anything in.

Cabri use in the UK seems to be declining, so if you get your PPL on a Cabri....you could end up struggling to find a school that operates one

Go R44. It's fast, comfortable, takes 4 people, relatively affordable, no extra post-PPL costs, and there are tons around.

The R22 is best by virtue of being the cheapest and most available for training, if you're not too heavy for it. It takes a lot of hours in practice to be ready for PPL (more than the minimum) so the money really adds up. The Cabri G2 is roughly twice as expensive as the R22 and thus so are the training costs. In fact it's very close to the price of a base R44 Cadet.

The G2 is for sure safer than the R22/R44 or Bell 206/505 just by virtue of having a fully articulated rotor instead of semi-rigid, and a fenestron, but in practice accidents almost always have nothing to do with the rotor, especially when flown with a competent CFI.

I found it was a significant advantage to learn in something I could later use (taking family and friends up say), which for me meant the 44. There is a lot to be said for 150 hours of familiarity with one type, especially for someone who is always going to be low time.

Question: Is the hourly rate of the R44 Cadet cheaper than the UK than the R44?

Yes, I think the R44 cadet is slightly cheaper than the regular R44

"The G2 is for sure safer than the R22/R44 or Bell 206/505 just by virtue of having a fully articulated rotor instead of semi-rigid"

Don't think so somehow. It's certainly not safer than the 206, which doesn't get ground resonance. Fully articulated rotors do.

The R44 is really just a big R22, so it really doesn't take much time in it to be all that comfortable. Sure, it took me about 50 hours to stop rocking it slightly in a hover because of the lack of feedback from the hydraulic cyclic, but so what?

Anyway, I don't know about the UK, but its certainly cheaper to get your ppl.in the 22, then get an additional 10 hours in the 44 for the PIC endorsement, than doing it all in the 44.

,...but hey, if you've got stacks of money burning a hole in your pocket, sure, go with the 44 from the get go, lol.

I honestly don't know why anyone would choose the Cabri if their goal.is to fly family and friends around?

The Cabri only really prepares you for an EC120 or AS350

Thanks everyone! Quite a mix on answers but I think the majority seem to say go for the R22 over the Cabri. The next thing to decide is whether to do blocks of lessons or individual hour long lessons.....

R22 PPL:

65 hours x £400 per hour = £26,000 ...+ six hour R44 rating (at £600 per hour) £3,600 = £29,600
(but...will you get the R44 rating in just 6 hours?, and how comfortable in it will you be for taking pax?)

R44 PPL:

60 hours x £600 per hour = £36,000

(R44 is a bit easier to fly hence you get your PPL in fewer hours)

if you can get a decent discount, maybe buy in ten hour blocks, but NEVER pay the entire PPL cost up front to any UK flight school

Never pay up front to any flight school, regardless of country. If you do then they no longer have any incentive to train you because they already have your money. There are tons of nightmare stories from people who did that and were screwed.

The question which is the best helicopter to learn in, i would suggest from a pure view then Hu 269 takes a lot of beating. Easy to fly very forgiving and unlike most R22 schools will do engine off landings to the ground . From an instructors point of view you can let the student really loose it before you have to regain it.

The "best" is the one being maintained by the same outfit teaching you. Why??...because when it is pissing down with rain and blowing a gale outside you, the Pilot Operating Handbook (POH) and a warm mug of coffee will at least get to sit for several comfortable, undisturbed and free hours in the cockpit, in the hangar, running through those important checklists and all your procedures until you are memory perfect. Better than that...you will also get to quiz the mechanics. A smart pilot always sticks close to those who really know where to look for that hydraulic leak on preflight inspection, what fire detector sensor usually gives the false alarm and why, and which instructor is known in the repair hangar to be the firm's biggest liability. Best advice is to learn in something small, like an R22; plentiful, thus cheapest, and lots of maintenance going on. Later you will move onto turbine engines and much more complex systems, for that is all larger helicopters are. Again, then the lads and lasses in the maintenance shed will be your greatest teachers. Above all, start small and build up. It worked for me. And while we are on the subject, always remember:...Know safety, no pain. No safety, know pain.

The best way to get you ppl, is to save up enough money for the entire rating before you start. Then fly five days a week and get it done in about two months of full time schooling. That's how I did it,... except replace "save up" with "borrowed", lol.

,...and always just pay for each lesson one at a time. As you never know when your school is going to "suddenly" go out of business.

Amen, the best advice ever Robbiee, offspring was doing training out of town and with another student flew home for Xmas in one of the organisations aircraft, made arrangements with the local aero club where they had to purchase fuel on the training organisations carnet that I would reimburse them if they found difficulty in getting payment. So it came to pass, the training organisation went belly up a month later and I received demand from the the firm handling the collapse for payment of monies owing, paid the aero club for the fuel and deducted it from monies owing to the training organisation.

What was more galling was on the day they collapsed they were still cashing the cheques of those who had made lump sum payments for the entire course but were yet to begin.

not possible at most UK schools, as most UK schools do not do their own maintenance

Continuity is one of the most vital aspects of learning to fly so doing one or two lessons a month will find you constantly relearning, forgetting and relearning.

Take your lessons a week at a time with several hours each week and without too much of a break between weeks of flying.

This means (as already suggested) having the money readily available ie saved up or loan arranged.

The aviation environment can be an alien one if you have little or no experience of it and immersing yourself in that environment is key to good progress.

There is a lot to learn both in terms of ground study and building muscle memory and confidence - sporadic flying doesn't help that at all.

As suggested by others, if you want in the future to take friends and family flying, go for the R44 so by the time you get to do that you are comfortable and knowledgeable about the machine - a quick type conversion won't do that for you.

Once you are qualified, make sure you fly regularly as skill fade is real - even after 40 years and 10,000 hours I know the difference between flying regularly and not - the basics are there but the finesse (and therefore spare capacity) fade quickly.

Good luck:ok:

Learn in the R22. It's the hardest to fly and the cheapest to rent. Everything else will be easier to fly.

Are you seriously saying there are schools that don't do eol's? It isn't an eol if it isn't taken to the ground, it's just an autorotation.
Surely you cant gain a PPL without having done dozens of them?

The FAA don't do them at all for PPL or CPL. Apparently the risk of mishap training for one far outweighs the risk of actually having one, and the safest course of action is to train people to get it to a survivable point rather than ground contact.

Just doesn't happen anymore, too much risk. They will get you close enough to the ground to hopefully not do too much harm to yourself.
What fresh solo student is going to pull off a real one gracefully in a 22?
I started on a 22, the Cabri wasn't an option then and still isn't, because it is gutless and doesn't operate at anything resembling higher DA.
A 22 is one uncomfortable place to train if you aren't short but not that unpleasant with the doors off on a warm day.
I rapidly moved on to a 44 instead, partially because the 22's kept breaking or crashing.
The running cost of an 22 is now so much higher due to insurance that a 44 (Raven or Cadet) isn't much more per hour and it is a (relatively) safer place to be.
When you are able, run away as fast as possible from a piston to a decent helicopter and never look back :E

Ultimately the best aircraft for training is the one you can get to use regularly and is properly maintained.

Don't pay in advance. Always pay promptly after your lesson. Have some money saved up in YOUR bank account to keep you training consistently. A school you want to be doing good business with does not need money up front. I tried both the R22, and the SW300. I preferred the SW300, and that's what I trained in. With that done, transition to an MD500 was very easy, and the type endorsement was only a couple of hours. As others have mentioned, full on autorotations were not a part of my training at all. I was trained to get close to the ground, from which a power off landing would likely be successful, while reducing training risk.

I'm assuming you haven't flown one since the 160shp update, because it isn't 'gutless' (it may have previously felt that way at lower DA's being limited to 145shp). In it's current form a Cabri G2 does great for training and landing 2 POB up to 6500'+ depending on the ISA deviation

I can assure you it doesn't work up here at our temps and altitude.
It is a job in and of itself to get one in for demo purposes at the trade shows.
Hence no one uses them, popular at the coast though.

On a warm day, even a 22 requires some encouragement.
Cabri is just too heavy. They are also losing them at a pace, all from letting the tail overtake the rest of the aircraft on landing.

160 huh? Doesn't that only make it just as powerful as an R22 Beta?

The best training helicopter is the one your instructer uses. Pick your instructor first! That is the most important aspect of flight instruction. The instructer has to be able to teach you according to your learning style. I would travel to the best instructer I could find, quality instruction is the determinant of the rest of your flying career. I use the term 'career' because you want to be as serious, careful and professional in all your flying. Flying is not especially dangerous but it is spectacularly unforgiving; and bad habits acquired early are very difficult to train out of.

Don't worry about instructional airframe, Bell, Schweizer, Robinson, whatever should not be your problem. Airframe availability is more important. I would travel to a school with adequate resources, both airframe and instructional infrastructure, to avoid interrupted training sessions.

I recommend doing as much of the ground schooling as you can as early in the process as you can.... Even if you repeat some segments. The student pilot is not just learning to wiggle the stick with some control- you're learning in a different world and it has a different language.

Next, consider frequency of training. An hour a day for a pre-solo is plenty, more is generally not productive. Once you've done 5-10 hours of your 'solos', you can fly more every day and build experience.

To answer the OP accurately. If you want to learn to fly a helicopter there are, imho few choices. I have no experience of Hillers but anyhow they are not an available choice these days, so, No 1 by a long, long country mile tops is Bell 47.
No 2 and 3 - I'd hate to choose between H269 (Hughes 300) or an earlier Enstrom. By preference a straight F28a or maybe at a pinch cheat with a turbocharged F28c. In all cases with no correlator.
I learned on Gazelle. Spoilt! Fabulous beyond imagiation. Then the CAA fcucked up and forced me to do totally unnecessary 30 hr course on the B47 for a CPL.
I learned as much about flying a helo in that short time as the Navy had taught me to Wings level in 65hrs Gazelle time - and thought I had the light helo skillset more or less there. I learned about as much again on a summer season in charter, pipeline and joyriding an the F28A. That 'unnecessary' B47 time served me very well indeed in instilling fundamental procedures and considerations of helo P of F hat the brute power and sophistication of the Gaz had masked or minimalised. Do not be decieved that sophistication in a training helo is an advantage. I'd argue the exact opposite.
But I suppose it depends what you want a PPL for.
All those months of minimal power ops in the B47 and F28 set me up perfectly for dodgy hot, heavy and high bush ops in Africa later in B206s, leave alone the highly questionalble world (performance wise) of Cheltenham, Ascot, Silverstone, gardens in Acton and Guildford, pipeline and powerline surveys beyond normal endurance and charters galore.

Guys, the message is; learn the basics first!

UK flight school students losing out...

https://www.bbc.com/news/business-66018076

Meleagertoo, most schools now claim the auto rotative landing on the skills / 2138 PC as an EOL from a hover as opposed to what most people think of an EOL being from 1000 ft. Personally anyone who thinks it is too dangerous to put on the ground isnt a good enough instructor and shouldnt be teaching anyone !