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-   -   Helicopter missing - Mt Disappointment VIC (AU) (https://www.pprune.org/rotorheads/645960-helicopter-missing-mt-disappointment-vic-au.html)

Tickle 31st Mar 2022 01:22

Helicopter missing - Mt Disappointment VIC (AU)
 
Hoping for a good outcome. Anyone know any more?


Victoria Police are investigating reports of two missing helicopters around Mount Disappointment.

It’s understood the aircraft were travelling in a convoy from Melbourne’s CBD. One helicopter disappeared just after 9.30am, with the second helicopter also yet to be located.

According the 9News, “several people” were on board the two helicopters and Ambulance Victoria and Victorian Police are currently searching the area.

The Australian Transport Safety Bureau is also aware of the incident.
Police helicopters have been spotted in the area. Picture: 9News.Located around 80km from the city’s CBD, Mount Disappointment is located near the south end of the Great Dividing Range.
https://www.news.com.au/travel/trave...7bff3dd78a5d48

Monks 31st Mar 2022 02:45

I think this is after the accident called as your can see the SAR and Police helicopters heading this way (unless it was an aircraft as part of this existing package in the area). If you go back to 2055 UTC on FR24 you can see a HC130 l (that departed cbd) pass over the area perform some manoeuvres head out then back before landing at Mangalore

Homesick-Angel 31st Mar 2022 02:59

I could be wrong, but theres only one operator in Melbourne that i can think of that operates the missing type. Bloody awful..

joe_bloggs 31st Mar 2022 09:16

Update. More details.
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-03-...urne/100954600

Seems a bit similar to an incident out of Sydney to Bathurst a few years back.

more info. https://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-04-...amed/100958098

Nescafe 31st Mar 2022 10:10


Originally Posted by joe_bloggs (Post 11208416)
Update. Names released.

Not in that article they aren’t.

I spy 31st Mar 2022 12:21


Originally Posted by joe_bloggs (Post 11208416)

Weather? RIP

belly tank 1st Apr 2022 12:41

https://amp.9news.com.au/article/8d4...5-333f56fff89f

megan 1st Apr 2022 23:55

Photo of the young pilot, my question is, is this how a seat belt is worn in the EC130?


https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune....a5b9ebc618.jpg

212man 2nd Apr 2022 00:31


Originally Posted by megan (Post 11209384)
Photo of the young pilot, my question is, is this how a seat belt is worn in the EC130?


https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune....a5b9ebc618.jpg

it’s not how it should be worn in any aircraft. Mind you, in the last week I’ve seen proudly shown video on FB of someone doing B205 training, and neither pilot are wearing shoulder straps at all.

RVDT 2nd Apr 2022 03:25

That machine is no 130 - old 350 B,BA or B2.

The seat belt fits the vintage of the aircraft and is a 4 point harness although in the pic the thing is way out of adjustment for correct fit. Lap Straps should be tighter to bring the buckle lower.

Must be a pretty old machine as that style harness was even used in the SA 315 B Lama.


megan 2nd Apr 2022 03:29

212, I've had reason to comment previously here how this is not how a harness is worn, as it shows up on many videos posted, of instructors also. Basic education missing I think, if worn in such a manner you might as well not wear it at all.

someone doing B205 training, and neither pilot are wearing shoulder straps at all
When the Huey first came out accident investigators found the pilot/s at times still strapped in their seats, but located some distance in front of the airframe, having been ejected trough the windscreen in what should have been a survivable accident. Belts at the time were attached at the seat and the seat was letting go from the runners, probably aided by airframe distortion, lap belts were then secured to the airframe, shoulder harness remained attached to the rear and bottom of the seat (inertia reel). Problem solved.

Loved the crotch strap on the 76, there was no way you were going to submarine out of that, and it kept the buckle low on your hips where it should be.

Thanks RVDT, I know absolutely nothing of French machinery.

Nigel Osborn 2nd Apr 2022 04:38

In the mid 60s the only helicopter I flew with a shoulder harness was the FH 1100, the Bell 47 & 206 just had a lap belt. After a fatal accident, CASA made all helicopters have a 4 point harness, even the Bell 47. The S76 came out with a 5 point harness. In all cases the lap belt should be tight low down on the lap, then the shoulder harness clicked in. In the photo that harness would not be too helpful.

Changing subject, I'm very surprised there is no mention of radio calls made by either pilot. If the first one had a mechanical problem or in cloud unexpectedly, you would have expected a radio call. I don't know how far away the second pilot was, the report seems to suggest he was following, in which case you would expect him to see or hear or say something to the other pilot. Then the second one returned which suggests conditions weren't the best. The final result was a tragedy for the 5 on board but also I expect traumatic for those following.
I hope they come up quickly with the cause to make sure it's not repeated.

heliduck 2nd Apr 2022 06:52


Originally Posted by RVDT (Post 11209421)
That machine is no 130 - old 350 B,BA or B2.

The seat belt fits the vintage of the aircraft and is a 4 point harness although in the pic the thing is way out of adjustment for correct fit. Lap Straps should be tighter to bring the buckle lower.

Must be a pretty old machine as that style harness was even used in the SA 315 B Lama.

I’m currently flying a 1990 SD2 with the same buckle.

megan 2nd Apr 2022 07:20


the Bell 47 & 206 just had a lap belt
Civvies cost cutting Nigel, the military version of the 47 (TH-13M) I learnt to fly in 1967 had the full rig. ;)


https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune....287a1b674b.jpg

I think privately we know the accident cause, will be repeated again ad nauseam unfortunately.

KiwiNedNZ 2nd Apr 2022 07:44

The helo in the photo above is when he was flying for SeaWorld aviation on the Gold Coast, think they have either BA or B2s there.

RVDT 2nd Apr 2022 07:45


Originally Posted by heliduck (Post 11209451)
I’m currently flying a 1990 SD2 with the same buckle.

So that would be 32 year old machine? Where has the time gone?

RVDT 2nd Apr 2022 07:54

I have flown in that area a bit. Check the recent media photo's of the height of the trees and they may as well be made of steel.

Eucalyptus Regnans aka "Mountain Ash" record height is 86 metres. ~ 280' for Americans.

Rappeling fire crews from an old twoey was fun. Yeah I know it had 2 engines but...................

Nigel Osborn 2nd Apr 2022 08:10

Hi Megan,
Full harness came in 1969 if my memory is working!

[email protected] 2nd Apr 2022 08:11


I think privately we know the accident cause, will be repeated again ad nauseam unfortunately.
Agreed sadly.

catseye 2nd Apr 2022 10:05

Concur
 

Originally Posted by [email protected] (Post 11209474)
Agreed sadly.

unfortunately have to agree. wish it was something else. too many of these.

I spy 2nd Apr 2022 14:09


Originally Posted by catseye (Post 11209539)
unfortunately have to agree. wish it was something else. too many of these.

Mountain wave?

Squawk7700 3rd Apr 2022 10:58


Kulwin Park 3rd Apr 2022 12:20

That Flightpath data exert indicates XWD got down as low as 2,592' then down to 2,411' whilst the other aircraft WVV stayed around the 3,900' mark.
May be there was a aircraft problem.
Does anyone know what height the mount is?

Doors Off 3rd Apr 2022 13:59


Originally Posted by Kulwin Park (Post 11210017)
That Flightpath data exert indicates XWD got down as low as 2,592' then down to 2,411' whilst the other aircraft WVV stayed around the 3,900' mark.
May be there was a aircraft problem.
Does anyone know what height the mount is?

Captain Google says 2,600’

[email protected] 3rd Apr 2022 16:07

Has all the hallmarks of scud running and getting it wrong - the other aircraft is 1000' higher and gets through...........nothing much more to say.

the coyote 3rd Apr 2022 22:20

Departing the city for Ulupna (as reported), if cloud base was an issue then it is a mystery to me why they chose to go via the hills rather than the Kilmore Gap, only a few miles to the west and pretty much on track. RIP.

Gordy 3rd Apr 2022 22:40


Originally Posted by megan (Post 11209423)
.When the Huey first came out accident investigators found the pilot/s at times still strapped in their seats, but located some distance in front of the airframe, having been ejected trough the windscreen in what should have been a survivable accident. Belts at the time were attached at the seat and the seat was letting go from the runners, probably aided by airframe distortion, lap belts were then secured to the airframe, shoulder harness remained attached to the rear and bottom of the seat (inertia reel). Problem solved.

Even to this day we would not wear our shoulder harnesses in the 212/205/Huey as we are mostly doing external load and with the shoulder straps on you cannot lean all the way out in the bubble window. About 5 years ago we bought the "tilt" seat and now we are able to wear them. Some of the "old School" pilots still refuse however.

Nigel Osborn 4th Apr 2022 00:53

Were either pilot instrument rated & were the helicopters IF equipped? Was the second pilot flying on top or in IMC & flew himself out safely?

Squawk7700 4th Apr 2022 01:36

The descent rate in the final 20 seconds of flight appears to be in excess of 4,000fpm if the surveillance data is accurate.

Nigel Osborn 4th Apr 2022 03:02

4000 fpm is basically impossible in free fall, an object would need to be powered to fall that fast. A dropped brick falls at only about 120 mph. I hope my maths hasn't gone too astray!

megan 4th Apr 2022 03:51


4000 fpm is basically impossible in free fall
It's only 45 MPH Nigel, 5280 fpm is 60 MPH. A brick would be far higher than 120 MPH, which is what a skydiver in belly to earth falls at, on average, they use weights and tight/loose clothing to adjust free fall speeds relative to one another, Grand Slam and Tall Boy bombs of WWII impacted at some 750 MPH, only power required was an aircraft to drop them from.

Squawk7700 4th Apr 2022 06:24


Originally Posted by Nigel Osborn (Post 11210247)
4000 fpm is basically impossible in free fall, an object would need to be powered to fall that fast. A dropped brick falls at only about 120 mph. I hope my maths hasn't gone too astray!

Some passenger jets climb at in excess of 3,000fpm.

Flying Bull 4th Apr 2022 08:22


Originally Posted by Nigel Osborn (Post 11210247)
4000 fpm is basically impossible in free fall, an object would need to be powered to fall that fast. A dropped brick falls at only about 120 mph. I hope my maths hasn't gone too astray!

4.000 fpm decent is easy possible - had it on the VSI more than once - but deliberate ;-)

John Eacott 4th Apr 2022 08:55


Originally Posted by Squawk7700 (Post 11210266)
Some passenger jets climb at in excess of 3,000fpm.

Without going too far OT, the BK117 managed 4,000fpm RoC back in the last century, passenger jets way more than that. RoD for most helicopters would be >2,000fpm in an auto although some come down like the proverbial brick: the Wasp/Scout was 3,500-4,000fpm in a 'normal' auto. 360* autos in a Squirrel can reach the 3,000fpm RoD, too, within the error of FR24 readouts.

Back On topic, the Kilmore Gap sort of made it easier to get through the low cloud around Disappointment and the Macedon Ranges, is it still local knowledge or has the Magenta Line overruled such options? I haven't seen any mention of a mechanical failure, but it can't be discounted until the initial report comes out.

[email protected] 4th Apr 2022 10:01

Unless the debris field is well spread , which might indicate an in-flight break up of some sort, there probably won't be enough left to reach much of a conclusion about mechanical failure.

megan 5th Apr 2022 04:16


the Wasp/Scout was 3,500-4,000fpm in a 'normal' auto
Was always too scared to look John, besides, was too busy scanning the potential crash site. :p

HissingSyd 5th Apr 2022 13:06


Originally Posted by megan (Post 11210664)
Was always too scared to look John, besides, was too busy scanning the potential crash site. :p

Didn't the ROC max out at 2000 fpm?

John Eacott 5th Apr 2022 22:32


Originally Posted by HissingSyd (Post 11210852)
Didn't the ROC max out at 2000 fpm?

C'mon, don't spoil the dit :p

Ascend Charlie 6th Apr 2022 01:01

One story is that the ROC is limited to 2000fpm because if the engine quit, the aircraft would keep going up for a while and by the time the ROD was sufficient to turn the blades in autorotation, the RRPM was too low for it to work.

However, that might be a load of horsefeathers.

belly tank 6th Apr 2022 04:22


Originally Posted by Ascend Charlie (Post 11211155)
One story is that the ROC is limited to 2000fpm because if the engine quit, the aircraft would keep going up for a while and by the time the ROD was sufficient to turn the blades in autorotation, the RRPM was too low for it to work.

However, that might be a load of horsefeathers.

If I remember rightly, the 407 has a 2000 FPM ROC limit for that reason.


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