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-   -   HeliService International win Lincs & Notts Air Ambulance (https://www.pprune.org/rotorheads/640033-heliservice-international-win-lincs-notts-air-ambulance.html)

Windmill Wiz 22nd Apr 2021 11:09

HeliService International win Lincs & Notts Air Ambulance
 
Competition in the UK HEMS market is increasing with both Gama and HeliService International entering the fray.
Sorry I cannot post the link to Helihub webpage, but
"HeliService Managing Partner, Oliver Freiland: HeliService is proud to be selected to provide the flight operations to Lincolnshire & Nottinghamshire Air Ambulance. For HeliService it is an important milestone as we are entering the UK HEMS market. We thank Lincolnshire & Nottinghamshire Air Ambulance for their trust in HeliService and we will do our utmost to provide the very best service to the Charity and the people of Lincolnshire and Nottinghamshire.”

PANews 22nd Apr 2021 11:49

That will put many noses out of joint in Staverton [and possibly Farnborough].

The Helihub article also points out that it is our old friend Henk Schaeken behind this deal.


Windmill Wiz 22nd Apr 2021 11:57

Interesting also on Companies House website for HELI SERVICE INTERNATIONAL LIMITED (12820744)
Registered office address changed from Pegasus House 463a Glossop Road Sheffield S10 2QD United Kingdom to C/O Lincs & Notts Air Ambulance Hems Way, Off Sleaford Road Bracebridge Heath Lincoln LN5 2GW on 22 April 2021.

hueyracer 22nd Apr 2021 12:59

Isn't that the German operator Heli Services from Emden, breaking into the UK market as the first European operator after Brexit?

Windmill Wiz 22nd Apr 2021 13:14

Correct, but let's not get started on the benefits of Brexit.

Torquetalk 22nd Apr 2021 13:20

Think that would be a German company with a UK AOC. Aren’t Wiking doing the same?

Wouldn‘t that make them a British operator?

Vorsprung durch Worknick

Windmill Wiz 22nd Apr 2021 14:05

Hence the UK registered office which would be a prerequisite for UK AOC.

Sir Korsky 22nd Apr 2021 14:08

No idea why these charities are outsourcing anyway. As soon as private enterprise comes along, the thieving starts. I would never donate to a charity that utilizes a private operator. For-profit just means everybody at the bottom of the totem pole gets shafted. No doubt they'll publish the rudimentary smiling management team image soon - you know the one, standing in front of the machine looking like Bodie, Doyle and Cowley.

OldLurker 22nd Apr 2021 15:30


Originally Posted by Sir Korsky (Post 11032346)
No idea why these charities are outsourcing anyway. As soon as private enterprise comes along, the thieving starts. I would never donate to a charity that utilizes a private operator. For-profit just means everybody at the bottom of the totem pole gets shafted. No doubt they'll publish the rudimentary smiling management team image soon - you know the one, standing in front of the machine looking like Bodie, Doyle and Cowley.

HEMS isn't for amateurs, on this side of the pond anyway. UK air ambulance charities are local charities that just don't have the expertise or critical mass to operate, maintain and fly helicopters to professional standards. They all (AFAIK) outsource operations to companies such as Babcock that specialise in providing air ambulance services. They have a very good safety record: there's been only one crash (that I know of) of an air ambulance helicopter in the UK (Kent Air Ambulance in 1998).

helicrazi 22nd Apr 2021 16:20


Originally Posted by OldLurker (Post 11032372)
HEMS isn't for amateurs, on this side of the pond anyway. UK air ambulance charities are local charities that just don't have the expertise or critical mass to operate, maintain and fly helicopters to professional standards. They all (AFAIK) outsource operations to companies such as Babcock that specialise in providing air ambulance services. They have a very good safety record: there's been only one crash (that I know of) of an air ambulance helicopter in the UK (Kent Air Ambulance in 1998).

Isnt Devon a stand alone?

[email protected] 22nd Apr 2021 16:21

But all those charities pay their crews bottom dollar whilst rewarding the 'executives' - I think that's what Sir Korsky is alluding to with the thieving comment.

Not for profit just means you can trouser (sorry, distribute) your funds without pandering to shareholders.

Sir Korsky 22nd Apr 2021 17:45

The little cogs never get greased when profit is the driver. Seen it and sick of it. Call it business, but when honestly intended public charitable donations are filling the cess pool, I tend to get mighty aggravated. How difficult can it be? You need a few experienced drivers, a few mechanics and a simple management structure and a ticket. Profit in aviation is the root of all evil.

torqueshow 22nd Apr 2021 20:06


Originally Posted by helicrazi (Post 11032387)
Isnt Devon a stand alone?

Devon and Wiltshire are independent. Thames Valley has just advertised for a Chief Pilot position specifically mentioning a transfer to an independent AOC.

Will be interesting to see a new operator in the HEMS market.

Windmill Wiz 22nd Apr 2021 20:20


Originally Posted by helicrazi (Post 11032387)
Isnt Devon a stand alone?

Devon Air Ambulance, London Air Ambulance, Wiltshire Air Ambulance and Yorkshire Air Ambulance hold their own AOC.

Torquetalk 22nd Apr 2021 20:57


Originally Posted by torqueshow (Post 11032476)
Devon and Wiltshire are independent. Thames Valley has just advertised for a Chief Pilot position specifically mentioning a transfer to an independent AOC.

Will be interesting to see a new operator in the HEMS market.

Isn’t GAMA also a fairly new HEMS operator?

Is this Heliservice‘s first HEMS contract? Not much room in the German market with DFS and ADAC covering almost everything, I imagine.

PANews 22nd Apr 2021 22:19

Heliservice have been working with AW169s for a while and according to heir website they have been working with REGA.
:ok:
Even though they need to employ extra staff to service the AOC it appears many find it cheaper to go for their own.

It is a way of burning all the embarassing bank balances they accrue from good fund raising... it is there to look after them when a 'rainy day' comes along. It saves them even more money overall so they need to buy a bigger or better helicopter and then they need to buy a field for building on and then build a snazzy new base that saves them yet more money.... Along comes a money slowing coronavirus that might be classified as the rainy day so they plead poverty and yet more more comes in... So now what do they do with the bank balance?

Just kidding but it does have some truth in it!


megan 23rd Apr 2021 04:08


Profit in aviation is the root of all evil
You could remove the "aviation" and insert "business". Remember when our big boss two or three decades ago put out an edict that no one would be getting a pay rise one particular year because of poor returns, he however got a US$2 million raise taking his total take home to US$38 million.

hueyracer 23rd Apr 2021 05:25


Originally Posted by megan (Post 11032613)
You could remove the "aviation" and insert "business". Remember when our big boss two or three decades ago put out an edict that no one would be getting a pay rise one particular year because of poor returns, he however got a US$2 million raise taking his total take home to US$38 million.



​​​​​​" Greed" is the source of all evil....

Nothing wrong with profit-thats the motivation that drives almost everything.....

Things turn sour when greed takes over, and the one on top has to throw out the golden door handles to replace them with new ones because the old ones are dirty, while the ones at the bottom of the food chain don't know how to pay for their food...


Medevac999 23rd Apr 2021 06:21


Originally Posted by Torquetalk (Post 11032325)
Think that would be a German company with a UK AOC. Aren’t Wiking doing the same?

Wouldn‘t that make them a British operator?

Vorsprung durch Worknick

Does Heliservice and Wiking have a UK AOC?

Aucky 23rd Apr 2021 06:39


Originally Posted by Medevac999 (Post 11032645)
Does Heliservice and Wiking have a UK AOC?

Interesting question - I think Wiking either do or have been applying for one as recruiters on LinkedIn have been trying to find people for Head of Crew Training roles on the H145 in Scotland and the South East.

I suspect HeliServices have an AOC application in, but did pick up on the use of the word cabotage by Rob Bishton in relation to ‘air ambulance’ operations so perhaps they have an agreement to allow some EU based AOCs to operate within the U.K. for a period? I can’t substantiate it, or any potential gains to U.K. operators from such an arrangement, but if true it would appear to present another kick in the teeth from Brexit, and in my opinion a lack of judgement given the lack of reciprocity agreed this far.

The helihub link says “The operator is already on the UK CAA’s list of approved European operators who can fly commercially in the UK” read into that what you will. Heli Service are not listed as having a TCO approval https://www.caa.co.uk/Commercial-ind...-Certificates/


https://helihub.com/2021/04/22/germa...uk-ems-market/

[email protected] 23rd Apr 2021 08:02

How about combining all the air ambulance charities into one - saves on a lot of CEOs salaries - then have one company provide aircraft, pilots and engineering.

Economies of scale, mutual cross cover, the ability to move 'odd' people to different ponds, standardisation across the board, one or maybe two aircraft types, one AOC - the list goes on.

Sounds a bit like the SAR contract but perhaps that is exactly what is needed instead of this fragmented and inefficient set up we have now.

Put the police air provision into the equation as well and share the funding between Govt and the 'single' charity.

gipsymagpie 23rd Apr 2021 08:04


Originally Posted by [email protected] (Post 11032690)
How about combining all the air ambulance charities into one - saves on a lot of CEOs salaries - then have one company provide aircraft, pilots and engineering.

Economies of scale, mutual cross cover, the ability to move 'odd' people to different ponds, standardisation across the board, one or maybe two aircraft types, one AOC - the list goes on.

Sounds a bit like the SAR contract but perhaps that is exactly what is needed instead of this fragmented and inefficient set up we have now.

Put the police air provision into the equation as well and share the funding between Govt and the 'single' charity.

At the risk of sounding like a cynic, isn't that exactly what NPAS was meant to do? Doesn't seem to have worked terribly well.

dustycraphopper 23rd Apr 2021 08:14

UK AOC - or do they piggy back onto an existing UK AOC from a negotiated agreement ? What about getting an Foreign Carrier Permit or Article 250 Permit from the CAA for temporary ops and keep re-applying as required.......

[email protected] 23rd Apr 2021 10:18


At the risk of sounding like a cyclic, isn't that exactly what NPAS was meant to do? Doesn't seem to have worked terribly well.
Agreed but that seems to have been driven by senior police officers ambitions rather than knowledge of aviation.

torqueshow 23rd Apr 2021 11:14


Originally Posted by [email protected] (Post 11032690)
How about combining all the air ambulance charities into one - saves on a lot of CEOs salaries - then have one company provide aircraft, pilots and engineering.

Economies of scale, mutual cross cover, the ability to move 'odd' people to different ponds, standardisation across the board, one or maybe two aircraft types, one AOC - the list goes on.

Sounds a bit like the SAR contract but perhaps that is exactly what is needed instead of this fragmented and inefficient set up we have now.

Put the police air provision into the equation as well and share the funding between Govt and the 'single' charity.

I wonder how that would work from a fundraising aspect as a charity. The money generally comes from the same donors and businesses where there’s a feeling of local pride over their county’s air ambulance provider. Someone donating in Northumberland may not feel like they see the benefit of their donation if they think it’s being spent in Cornwall.

Sir Korsky 23rd Apr 2021 11:30


Originally Posted by [email protected] (Post 11032690)
How about combining all the air ambulance charities into one - saves on a lot of CEOs salaries - then have one company provide aircraft, pilots and engineering.

Now this would be the way to go. I personally think the UK Air Ambulance service should be centrally funded from government. I don't think that anybody should have their life dependent upon a charity, like the starving in Africa.

Non-PC Plod 23rd Apr 2021 12:23

100% agree Sir K. We should not have to rely on charitable donations to fund an emergency service, but I suppose like the lifeboats, the government gets it for free at the moment, so there is no incentive for them to invite the headache of taking it on.

Windmill Wiz 23rd Apr 2021 14:47

The charity model is certainly not without its flaws, but so far it has worked quite well in the UK. Modern helicopters, advanced medical equipment, well-trained staff and an excellent safety record. The alternative is either government operated and be starved of investment in equipment and personnel (just look at all the Defence Reviews) or a fully commercial operation like in the US with a less than stellar safety record.

The charity model is widespread in UK society; there are more than 1,600 cancer charities alone. Of course the excesses need to be tackled, but the current system has forged a strong bond between local community and their air ambulance, which simply would not exist if the service was government funded / government operated.

Sky Sports 23rd Apr 2021 14:56

The charity backed air ambulances are considerably better off than the government backed police helicopters. The Charities Commission is constantly warning the air ambulances about the spare millions they have in the bank. Millions that NPAS are desperate for!

Hughes500 23rd Apr 2021 15:12

Come on crab, its jobs for the boys. Look at Cornwall, we better have 2 helicopters because Devon has 2. We haven't spent enough money so we will build a big glass hanger for them and put them both in the same place. We will make them IFR so we can get to Treliske ( the pad there doesnt have an ILS so what's the point ? )
Lets be honest there is a competition between all the charities as to who can have the biggest fastest machine. I have never really understood why they all have to have a trauma doctor on board ? Would he not be more productive being at a hospital ? I still think it is better to have less expensive machines and more of them. BO 105 was small but really cheap to buy and run compared to an AW169. I know the RAF have a Chinook with a trauma team in the back for Afghan which is wear Cornwall seems to want to go. I know it is rough in Cambourne and Redruth but one doesn't step on an IED there !

torqueshow 23rd Apr 2021 15:26


Originally Posted by Hughes500 (Post 11032903)
Come on crab, its jobs for the boys. Look at Cornwall, we better have 2 helicopters because Devon has 2. We haven't spent enough money so we will build a big glass hanger for them and put them both in the same place. We will make them IFR so we can get to Treliske ( the pad there doesnt have an ILS so what's the point ? )
Lets be honest there is a competition between all the charities as to who can have the biggest fastest machine. I have never really understood why they all have to have a trauma doctor on board ? Would he not be more productive being at a hospital ? I still think it is better to have less expensive machines and more of them. BO 105 was small but really cheap to buy and run compared to an AW169. I know the RAF have a Chinook with a trauma team in the back for Afghan which is wear Cornwall seems to want to go. I know it is rough in Cambourne and Redruth but one doesn't step on an IED there !

Doctors provide more than just trauma expertise and are required for some pre-hospital anaesthesia. And interestingly Cornwall is one of the AAs without a doctor on board and travel with 2 specialised paramedics instead, a model used at a number of bases throughout the UK, not all carry doctors.

Torquetalk 23rd Apr 2021 19:32


Originally Posted by Hughes500 (Post 11032903)
Come on crab, its jobs for the boys. Look at Cornwall, we better have 2 helicopters because Devon has 2. We haven't spent enough money so we will build a big glass hanger for them and put them both in the same place. We will make them IFR so we can get to Treliske ( the pad there doesnt have an ILS so what's the point ? )
Lets be honest there is a competition between all the charities as to who can have the biggest fastest machine. I have never really understood why they all have to have a trauma doctor on board ? Would he not be more productive being at a hospital ? I still think it is better to have less expensive machines and more of them. BO 105 was small but really cheap to buy and run compared to an AW169. I know the RAF have a Chinook with a trauma team in the back for Afghan which is wear Cornwall seems to want to go. I know it is rough in Cambourne and Redruth but one doesn't step on an IED there !

Only 1 aircraft means a high probability of no service due to any number of tech issues. Good case for having a spare for a time critical service,

BO105 and ILS are not the future. Aircraft with AFCS & IFR capability and RNAV are.

RNAV could open up the flyability window hugely in the coming years, pushing below CAT 1 minima, as the precision and reliability of systems is accepted. Approval of RNAV hospital approaches and approaches/departures to safe pick-up points for remote areas are all thinkable. So much better than buggering about VFR in when the weather is marginal.

[email protected] 24th Apr 2021 09:03

The argument for 2 aircraft in Devon and Cornwall will be the geographical size of the areas and the relatively poor road links compared to many other UK areas.

Add in the fact that the population doubles when the tourists arrive - which seems most of the year when Covid doesn't prevent travel - and the need to get to the Scillies for Cornwall and you start to see why two is a better option.

A central charity could still promote itself locally just as they do at the moment so the idea that the public are donating to their own AA would still be there.

homonculus 24th Apr 2021 15:25

If anyone suggested removing Addenbrookes or Great Ormond Street hospital from the NHS and running them as local charities I suspect the men in white coats would come round. Both these hospitals have serious charities that rightly or wrongly provide additional funding but they are core funded and managed according to NHS standards using NHS employed doctors and nurses under NHS control. Most air ambulance work is trauma which is a multispecialty service that depends upon the weakest link. No sensible clinician, starting from scratch, would allow a single link to be provided by a multitude of local charities and run outside the NHS. It is noteworthy the lack of peer reviewed audit and research about air ambulance work in the UK and the resulting lack of national guidelines and standards for the medical side.

I fully accept the high standards and innovation over the years from the aviation side but there is a difference between the NHS contracting in services it cannot provide (AOC, maintenance) and relying on a disparate provision. The charities have been fantastic and without them and public generosity we would have got nowhere. They should continue, but healthcare funding has moved on from the 1980s and air ambulance work should be part of UK healthcare in the same way as land ambulances.

torqueshow 24th Apr 2021 15:40


Originally Posted by homonculus (Post 11033449)
If anyone suggested removing Addenbrookes or Great Ormond Street hospital from the NHS and running them as local charities I suspect the men in white coats would come round. Both these hospitals have serious charities that rightly or wrongly provide additional funding but they are core funded and managed according to NHS standards using NHS employed doctors and nurses under NHS control. Most air ambulance work is trauma which is a multispecialty service that depends upon the weakest link. No sensible clinician, starting from scratch, would allow a single link to be provided by a multitude of local charities and run outside the NHS. It is noteworthy the lack of peer reviewed audit and research about air ambulance work in the UK and the resulting lack of national guidelines and standards for the medical side.

I fully accept the high standards and innovation over the years from the aviation side but there is a difference between the NHS contracting in services it cannot provide (AOC, maintenance) and relying on a disparate provision. The charities have been fantastic and without them and public generosity we would have got nowhere. They should continue, but healthcare funding has moved on from the 1980s and air ambulance work should be part of UK healthcare in the same way as land ambulances.

Could you elaborate on the lack of clinical oversight of ambulance charities? Being that they are clinically governed by people that also hold clinical director positions in their local trusts. Being that the NHS and ambulance services aren’t centrally governed either and each trust follow their own guidelines.

Air ambulances are regularly submitting their CQC results and a multitude of papers that confirm their benefit and also confirm outdated clinical practice that needs changing, just like any progressive clinical governance. Clinical trials and different drugs are also trialled by the specialist medics which one day may find themselves in the hands of land ambulance crews further benefitting patients that don’t require a helicopter.

You may also be surprised to find that trauma does not make up as much of the work as it used to with a lot more specific medical work being undertaken.

A perfect system it is not but it would be wrong to think that the clinical governance is not near identical to what is found in the ED of the local trauma centre being that the hospital directors tend to be one in the same, hospital clinical director and air ambulance director.

gipsymagpie 24th Apr 2021 18:47


Originally Posted by Torquetalk (Post 11033044)
Only 1 aircraft means a high probability of no service due to any number of tech issues. Good case for having a spare for a time critical service,

BO105 and ILS are not the future. Aircraft with AFCS & IFR capability and RNAV are.

RNAV could open up the flyability window hugely in the coming years, pushing below CAT 1 minima, as the precision and reliability of systems is accepted. Approval of RNAV hospital approaches and approaches/departures to safe pick-up points for remote areas are all thinkable. So much better than buggering about VFR in when the weather is marginal.

It is a shame then that the UK have withdrawn from EGNOS with the result that sub-250ft minima will be impossible (ie no LPV); we will only get the free “Open Service” from EGNOS in the future so LNAV and LNAV/LNAV will be the best we can look forward to for some time.

Until we send up our own SBAS satellite which seems to be the farcical solution being proposed by government.

Asturias56 24th Apr 2021 18:56

"I don't think that anybody should have their life dependent upon a charity"

Like the RNLI? They avoid Govt oversight like the plague but do a good job - and raise a lot of cash every year

BFM 24th Apr 2021 21:49

There is a great deal of research generated by HEMS medical teams. The ethos of HEMS prehospital research goes right back to Alistair Wilson and John Nicoll who had to fight to get the London service started and then continued. One of the enduring issues with this type of prehospital work is its difficulty. Look at the amount of effort put into the Paramedic 2 study and its results are still questioned. Far more needs to be done.
There are perfectly good audit programmes and protocols that are frequently and well trained in all UK HEMS systems.

ShyTorque 25th Apr 2021 07:43


Originally Posted by torqueshow (Post 11032782)
I wonder how that would work from a fundraising aspect as a charity. The money generally comes from the same donors and businesses where there’s a feeling of local pride over their county’s air ambulance provider. Someone donating in Northumberland may not feel like they see the benefit of their donation if they think it’s being spent in Cornwall.

Agreed! I answered a knock on our door a while back to find a chap who tried to get me to sign up to a monthly contribution to what he described as “your local” air ambulance. He launched into a sales pitch, telling how important it was, etc etc.

My first thought was that he might be a fraudster. He seemed to have authentic I.d. but it was immediately obvious from it that he was trying to get me to sign up to support a unit that wasn’t our local one at all. I pointed out he was in the wrong county! He asked me why I was saying that and I pointed out that I was in the industry and worked from the same airfield as the unit he was collecting for. I also told him that “my local” air ambulance was about sixty miles from the one he was representing, that a friend was chief pilot of that unit and we already supported that one.

The chap got quite defensive and grumpy; needless to say he didn’t get my bank details.

MLHeliwrench 25th Apr 2021 14:11

STARS - Canada’s HEMS charity
 
STARS is a HEMS charity covering two provinces in Canada - multiple bases across a vast area. One organization, one AOC, multiple helicopters. Makes more sense!

https://stars.ca/


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