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MAN777 19th Mar 2021 08:05

NPAS Fixed wing to be ditched ?
 
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9379005/UK-police-chiefs-wasted-10m-surveillance-planes-work-built-areas.html

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/police-paid-10m-for-four-useless-planes-lzls7whkf

RotaryJ 19th Mar 2021 10:48

Not Even Surprised
 
To be brutally honest I am not surprised that the fixed wing aircraft are heading for the bin, we could all see this coming. Well, anyone with common-sense could, it's something that NPAS has always lacked, that and keeping people of industry within close proximity of the organisation... the bread and butter of police aviation treated like absolute crap and quite rightly fled. I instantly had a face palm moment when I first acknowledged that NPAS were proposing of replacing the MD902s with P68Rs, this could possibly be one of the worst decisions ever made in NPAS history, even the MD902s didn't spend this much time sitting catching dust in a hangar feeling sorry for themselves. It really does pose several questions: Is West Yorkshire Police in a fit state to be accountable of NPAS? Could there be a better force to take control and make NPAS a better organisation? What is the final straw for NPAS to be disbanded?

switch_on_lofty 19th Mar 2021 13:39

"They [planes] cannot hover above the ground"

​​​Daily Mail right on the money there.

Anyone shed light on the claim that it can't land at most airfields as it needs a long runway, Wikipedia quotes a TODR of 400m LDR of 600m which isn't long (unless compared to a helicopter!).

ShyTorque 19th Mar 2021 14:08


Originally Posted by switch_on_lofty (Post 11012130)
"They [planes] cannot hover above the ground"

​​​Daily Mail right on the money there.

Anyone shed light on the claim that it can't land at most airfields as it needs a long runway, Wikipedia quotes a TODR of 400m LDR of 600m which isn't long (unless compared to a helicopter!).

Not so much a problem with take-off and landing distance - but they stubbornly and stupidly choose an aircraft (initially designed well back into the last century) that uses AVGAS engines, rather than modern turbines. Most smaller, general aviation airfields where that fuel is still available are closed after dark. Larger airfields with longer operating hours often don't have AVGAS available out of daylight hours (because no-one else wants it). Filling the fuel tanks to cater for longer sorties means that only one observer can be carried, because of all up weight restraints. The previous helicopters could carry two. A high winged aircraft with small windows where the "job" is hidden as soon as the aircraft rolls into a turn to orbit was another big error.

As far as "all weather" is concerned, these aircraft had no advantage over the incumbent helicopters. They had no icing clearance so exactly the same weather limitations applied. This had to be obtained later, at the user's further cost. But the NPAS hierarchy knew best, ignoring the advice of those who actually knew what they were talking about and sacked the ones who spoke out.

It's time an inquiry is held into exactly who was pulling the strings with respect to the highly flawed decision to purchase these aircraft and the connections between them and the aircraft manufacturer.

backtothebeat 19th Mar 2021 14:15


Originally Posted by RotaryJ (Post 11011982)
What is the final straw for NPAS to be disbanded?

the original contract/agreement as I read it...
was that 50% or more of the Police Chiefs need to want to end it, before it can be wound up.

hargreaves99 19th Mar 2021 15:21

I have heard the Met are definitely taking "their" three EC145s and moving back to Lippitts Hill

I guess this could be the start of the end of the "N" in "NPAS"

N707ZS 19th Mar 2021 15:38

Wonder if Cleveland will get there's back, they had already tried the Islander and came to the same conclusion. It was said it could hover and fly backwards in a strong wind. lol

MAN777 19th Mar 2021 16:09

A fixed wing aircraft is OK for surveillance so long as you can get the height and stand off like the very successful GMP Defender routinely did. They are not very effective at helicopter heights.

Fortyodd2 19th Mar 2021 18:44


Originally Posted by hargreaves99 (Post 11012183)
I have heard the Met are definitely taking "their" three EC145s and moving back to Lippitts Hill

Hmm maybe, let's hope they don't bend one so much that it's unavailable for 6 months................

MightyGem 19th Mar 2021 20:48

Lots of interesting reading in February's Police Aviation News:
http://www.policeaviationnews.com/Ac...ary2021PAN.pdf

MAN777 19th Mar 2021 22:05

Just read Bryns summary of NPAS in the latest PAN.
God, Im now so depressed, what a cluster F***.
Speechless !!

PANews 25th Mar 2021 15:21

If I am not being wildly mislead I think it may be nearly all over.

After scrambling through the mud and brambles alongside Lippitts Hill this morning I was able to see a several work crews on site playing with a nice new set of doors on the main control room hangar and new windsocks by the pad.

April 1, All Fools Day, is beckoning. That may be Metxit, but, like the European problem, I am not sure this one has a life giving vaccine to save the virus that is WYP.


backtothebeat 26th Mar 2021 15:47

Having been one of the TFOs that was given marching orders for daring to not toe the party line at the beginning all I can say is I will dance a little jig when it finally falls.
I was literally marched out of the unit with zero notice having turned up for work that morning as usual, with the news that NPAS had rescinded my secondment with immediate effect. Ten years of ASU service ended on the whim of a Supt who knew nothing about my job.
the treasonable action I committed was to openly say what everyone new. That the only thing you get with less... is less ..!!
Hopefully the flames will lick higher sometime soon.

ShyTorque 26th Mar 2021 16:08

BTTB,

Sounds like they wanted you out because they feared that you would be proved correct with time.
Having helped set up one ASU from scratch, and become the CP (and I know we all did a very good job) I’m so glad I took my chance to leave police aviation on my terms, rather than theirs, before NPAS began.

4468 26th Mar 2021 22:02


A fixed wing aircraft is OK for surveillance so long as you can get the height and stand off like the very successful GMP Defender routinely did. They are not very effective at helicopter heights.
Why would you wish to operate an aeroplane at so called ‘helicopter heights’? (Whatever that means?) What’s the advantage/disadvantage?

Why was the GMP Defender ‘very successful’? Was everyone else’s not successful?

the_flying_cop 26th Mar 2021 22:20


Originally Posted by 4468 (Post 11017040)
Why would you wish to operate an aeroplane at so called ‘helicopter heights’? (Whatever that means?) What’s the advantage/disadvantage?

Why was the GMP Defender ‘very successful’? Was everyone else’s not successful?

it was the crews that made it successful. I loved every minute of it. We had a blank canvas to start with and we made it work brilliantly. Using our experience from helicopters and adapting it accordingly. I left at the right time though.

4468 26th Mar 2021 22:25


it was the crews that made it successful. I loved every minute of it. We had a blank canvas to start with and we made it work brilliantly.
I completely understand. But don’t you agree, nobody should make the mistake of thinking only GMP could get ‘brilliant’ results from an aeroplane!

NEASU did that many years before GMP! 1995 if I recall correctly?

Hampshire and Cheshire even earlier than that.

There’s an awful lot of blinkered and largely misplaced hubris in police aviation.

Along with the predilection for empire building which is in the police DNA, it’s all part of the problem

the_flying_cop 26th Mar 2021 22:57


Originally Posted by 4468 (Post 11017049)
I completely understand. But don’t you agree, nobody should make the mistake of thinking only GMP could get ‘brilliant’ results from an aeroplane!

NEASU did that many years before GMP! 1995 if I recall correctly?

Hampshire and Cheshire even earlier than that.

There’s an awful lot of blinkered and largely misplaced hubris in police aviation.

Along with the predilection for empire building which is in the police DNA, it’s all part of the problem

I didn’t say GMP were the only ones to make it work.

4468 26th Mar 2021 23:12


Originally Posted by the_flying_cop (Post 11017062)
I didn’t say GMP were the only ones to make it work.

Fantastic. We agree.

Fixed Wing can work in the police role. A number of forces have shown that! 👍

the_flying_cop 26th Mar 2021 23:47


Originally Posted by 4468 (Post 11017067)
Fantastic. We agree.

Fixed Wing can work in the police role. A number of forces have shown that! 👍

The only thing that doesn’t work is NPAS.


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