Disgusting landing fees
 

Hi just arranged to book lunch at Grantley hall near Ripon for lunch tomorrow. Managed to get reservation then I was told landing fee is £150
I told them no way that’s scandalous , there’s no charge to park there in a car .

places like this want promoting as HELICOPTER NOT FRIENDLY GO ELSEWHERE

Over the years an airport I (and the occasional HEMS chopper) used to frequent, one by one got rid of the lights that pointed at the helispot. Then one day they decided to repave the ramp, but didn't repaint said helispot. Finally one night I noticed some temporary barriers set up just about where that old helispot used to be (making the approach ridiculously steep) and I took the hint,...they don't want helicopters at that airport anymore.

,...and that's not the only airport in recent years that has become unfriendly to us. Seems to be a growing trend. :(

Seeing as they only just reopened in August and are again under the newer Covid restrictions since September 22nd one would think it prudent to welcome any business rather than employing rip of tactics additional the presence of a helicopter arriving and leaving would possibly help with making people aware the place is open for business

Are there any costs associated with providing a rotary landing (e.g. AIP) vs. providing a car park. Not defending them, but would be curious to know what the economcis are. If there are no differences, then I agree, landing fees are ridiculous.

I was booked for an aerial filming mission around South Wales and one of the shots we were asked to get was of the Celtic Manor Hotel. I knew they had a pad so phoned ahead to see if we could book breakfast. They wanted a ridiculous landing fee so we skipped breakfast - and managed to forget to get a shot of the hotel for the programme going out on Channel 4....

Yet another example of corporate rules and a GM’s lack of common sense, a missed opportunity that costs nothing yet could be an excellent promotion of their business..... I didn’t learn much at school but did leave with common sense...

How much you planned on paying for the helicopter flight there and back?
:suspect:

So in the UK you need landowners permission to avoid any issues with trespassing etc. Why not ring up, book lunch and ask them if parking is free? When they say yes - there's your permission to park your helicopter. 👍

If a landowner is in the business of providing helicopter landing services (by charging a fee, for example), then they have a higher duty of care towards you (than they may realise). The article here suggests that, in a negligence case, the "Duty required" element would probably be satisfied if landing fees are charged. It doesn't address your gripe, though, which is more to do with the high level of fees or the fact that they aren't subsidised by the room charges. I suspect they have found that some charter customers have been happy to pay the fee, especially if it is not itemised in the overall cost.

I guess you have to decide if paying a fee and being able to land is better or worse than not having any option at all.
Anywhere else that provides helistop facilities is going to be billing you anyway.
The question is whether or not a fee that equates to about an hour of fuel is fair or not.
They may well have a loading on their liability policy for your convenience.
Parking a helicopter is not the same as parking a volvo, different risk, different requirements for parking.

i am not sure I understand your question

This thread would benefit from a helipad owner who can articulate any specific time, costs and efforts that are required, e.g. addtiional ground work, insurance, licenses etc. It's entirely up to the owner to decide whether to subsidise those costs across the business or relatively direct charge them through landing fees. They might find that usage is inelastic to fees, or if it is elastic, then the loss of custom due to fees has no or negible business impact. Perhaps it just keeps away people who are penny pinchers and/or come with a sense of entitlement and/or don't understand that a business needs revenue to pay its way and its people. I love going to places where I pay a little bit more for a better class of crowd ...

i do understand that a business needs to make profit , a helipad/ heliport with the proper safety equiptment ,staff ,insurance radio ,security ,licence ect is one thing.

But a area set aside at a hotel for helicopters to land at with no security I think £150 is out of the question

How do you know: (1) how many rotaries arrive each year; (2) what it cost them originally to make the ground solid, put fencing around, do the H, put up a windsock, etc ... might have been £10-20K of work; (3) what then costs them each year to maintain that, and to pay for insurance ... maybe it's £2K per year, or more?; (4) when for each landing, they have to prepare and keep paperwork, send staff to go and make sure people are not outside in the area of the helipad? etc. I appreciate you venting your frustration, but lets get some facts next and then decide ... £2K landing fee, yes that would be outrageous .... £30 landing fee, probably not covering yearly/total costs ... £150, hard to tell ...

I’ve been in the UK corporate heli sector for almost twenty years and come across the full range of landing permission costs, some are free, on a please help yourself basis. One kind owner has even sent me free coffee. Many of the hotels I’ve used in the UK actually do nothing to the ground to show that it’s a designated landing site and unless asked, provide nothing other than someone to collect the fee. Some do have a marked H but some just tell you where they want you to land. The most expensive rip off price I’ve encountered was £750 to land on a school playing field. Their “extra work” consisted of putting down a single dinner plate to mark the landing spot (so the groundsman knew where to look for holes). The school was closed, no staff were on site. To arrange the landing I had to deal with a lady whose official title was “Business generation manager”. Say no more. Obviously, I had to advise the leading passenger of the outrageous cost in advance, which I was surprised to hear was accepted.

One thing that many private pilots fail to do is to gain a written permission from the CAA to land where required at some sites (which obviously costs the operator a hefty fee and the application takes time to process in an office somewhere at Gatwick). Many hotels, by their very nature/location are in what the CAA consider to be a congested area. Gaining permission to breach the 1,000 ft rule prevents the possibility of a conviction for illegal low flying. From personal experience, any complaint to the CAA is likely to be investigated! A complaint against me was made by an ex military pilot who should have known better (he obviously didn’t understand the 500 foot rule doesn’t apply if you are landing or departing, although the 1,000 ft rule does) and although it was investigated it resulted in no action taken because my flight was 100% legal.

Haven't heard of this issue in the US. Have yet to experience a private landing fee at restaurants, hotels and golf courses, etc. But we do suffer from a related issue, which is that certain venues will require two or even four times the amount of liability insurance that you would normally have. These are typically large venues like stadiums or casinos, but sometimes also town fairs and the like. So you've got to go negotiate with your underwriter for a temporary increase. Most of the time not worth the effort or the expense. Sometimes they even ask to be put on the policy by name.

Interesting to read they offer a valet service for cars free of charge but when you eat and drink 12.5% will be added to the bill.
This pilot was possibly booking for 4 poeple and would be arriving in one of his special eyecatching helicopters adding a little out of the ordinary for the hotel guests to observe and chat about.

You are more then willing to pay for the cost of taking a helicopter for your “$100 hamburger” but you balk at the landing fee.

Have you asked yourself what the requirements and liabilities are for having a helicopter landing area?
You think those costs shouldn’t be passed on to you somehow?

Simple math:
Permitting, licensing, insurance, maintenance pick a number.
1500/year. You accommodate an average of 10 landings/year > 150/landing please.

Or should they just up the price for lunch by 50 for everyone so could can bring a helicopter in for free?

I think you're missing some context; in the UK none of that is necessarily required and it's not unusual to just ring a place and ask if they have an open field nearby to land at so you can pop by for lunch or stay overnight. The uneven ground comes for free and there shouldn't be any associated costs for the business with having the odd helicopter stop in every now and then. By charging a landing fee they are saying 'we want this much extra money from you because you're coming by helicopter and we want more of your money' - you're not paying for any specialised staff or additional facilities that a wouldn't be necessary had you come by car. I've been to places before that simply put a tenner on the bill for the shortly endured noise for the diners (we were landing mighty close to the tables to be fair), but I agree with the OP that £150 is cheeky at best.

The entitlement is rampant.
If they provide the fielding and you dig a skid during landing I am 100% certain you will litigate for damages.
Because I show up in a snazzy helicopter and give the punters something to chat about it should be free is ludicrous.
For 150 bp though I would expect a nicely manicured helipad with markings, fire extinguishers and a golf cart if needed.

My earlier point.
A R22 self fly hire rate is what 250-275/hr?
Thats 500-600 for the trip.
Nobody bats an eye at that amount.
Now this wasn’t a R22 was it?
Something bigger, maybe a turbine?
How much are those an hour?
You’re perfectly willing to pay that for what is essentially an ego trip to lunch yet you balk at the landing fee?

To B2N2: I think that you are presuming an awful lot about the OP. I would even go as far to say that you really don't have a clue.

Well said MD600 if they want to rip you off you have the option of going elsewhere. During my time working with Lothian Helicopters we pitched up at many hotels for a meal and overnight stay and not once were we charged for landing, and overnight parking. We did this all over the UK, sometimes we even got things a little cheaper if the boss gave staff a joyride. One of the hotels even sent a porter out to carry our bags in, great service, that was near Warrington. At most of the hotels other guests loved seeing the helicopter parked there.

As for the crazy comment by B2N2... how much were you prepared to pay for the flight there and back ? That cost is already considered when you make the choice to go somewhere ! Just because you have an expensive helicopter, why do you have to pay expensive landing charges ? If I went shopping to my local Sainsburys in a Ferrari would I be asked to pay more for my parking space than someone who went in a Mini for example. It's all about great customer service and if they want your business or not, especially during these Covid times where pepole are crying out for customers. It just does not make sense. Maybe we should make up a list of friendly hotels/eateries and another list to show who are the rip off hotels .

Waaaaaay ahead of you: https://www.pprune.org/rotorheads/291166-helipads-hotels-others-requests-recommendations-rip-offs.html

(1st post in 2004!)

B2N2, your expectations and certainties simply don’t fit in with the way rotary aviation in UK works. The only times I’ve ever seen fire extinguishers on site is at formal events such as race meetings, where an aviation business is hired in to run the site.

I don’t think I’ve ever heard of a pilot trying to claim damages from a land owner from digging a skid in! There have however been cases where a pilot was prosecuted by landowners for damage caused by helicopter downwash.

md600 - Grantley is used to footballers coming up from London and meeting any payment requests.
Quite amused to read some of the posts re HLS expectations in UK - windsock? Don’t make me laugh!
Glad to hear that you took your custom elsewhere

Well he’s a managing director and his current type is a Gazelle 342, a turbine helicopter.
Whats the operating cost an hour?
Purchase price?
That’s like showing up in a Ferrari and complaining about having to pay for valet parking.

Its an open forum and he got a dissenting opinion.
Thats all, we can still be friends :{

Aah footballers, the root of all evil in the formerly-United-Kingdom :E
The silly public can't tell the difference between one helicopter and another, and get the whole caste system completely wrong.
If they knew it was a Gaz and what it costs on the Yugoslavian register to keep it taped together in one piece, then they would probably have sent a hat round to collect a few sheckles to help and sponsored lunch for someone clearly in need. :}

I would have thought that if a hotel owner; on receiving a request for a helicopter to land, needed to get someone in to clear and mow the the landing area, put up a rope fence to keep everyone safely distant, (or police the area in person to keep guests clear), and take out an insurance policy for that one helicopter landing and subsequent take-off - then £150 sounds very reasonable.

Uplinker, yes then it would be reasonable....but in general, hotels don’t do that. As I wrote above, the only time preparations such as the ones you mentioned are made would be at special events when a specialist company is brought in. At a hotel? Very little chance, I regret to say.

A hotel taking out an insurance? That responsibility is put squarely on the helicopter operator. That’s why we are required to have insurance coverage for up to many millions of pounds.

I must say, comments here show how little some people know about real world helicopter operations.

MD600Driver, thanks for the note on Grantley Hall, I will avoid them no matter what type of transport I’m using on the day. Also, good to list these locations on the HCGB blacklist and the ongoing thread “Helipads & Hotels: Requests, Recommendations & Rip-offs https://www.pprune.org/rotorheads/29...-rip-offs.html as noted above.

B2N2, you exemplify the internet post preamble of “I don’t know anything about X, but here’s what I think about X”. You seem more of a disgruntled salary jockey with condemnation of anyone that flies privately with their family and friends.

In 15yrs of flying in the UK, I’ve never paid a hotel/restaurant/pub a landing fee when I am landing there for either breakfast, lunch, dinner or an overnight stay – no one should, it sets a bad precedent.

For the American posters that don’t understand how this works in Europe (particularly “B2N2” who thinks we should pay a few hundred pounds to land and bring them business by having dinner or booking hotel rooms):

- private flying for pleasure/recreation is far more common in Europe than US and self-fly-hire rental is easily found and available (it’s not all CPL factories; you can actually do this for fun)

- we have a large number of hotels/restaurants/pubs available to land and the vast majority are free, so long as you are eating/staying.

- the comments above regarding “facilities” are laughable; because those of us who actually do this know we’re merely instructed to land on a bit lawn or an adjacent field. Out of around 80-90 private sites I’ve landed in the UK only 1 even has a windsock – and it is situated right next to a tree rendering it useless (it’s really just for show as the hotel appreciates pilots visiting).

- approval procedure is normally just giving them a call; maybe filling out a form and possibly sending a copy of your insurance in some instances. Any mention of a landing fee is met by “no thanks, I’ll book elsewhere” to which they reply they’d welcome a visit in the future, if driving – to which I reply “you just tried to charge me £250 and you think I’m planning a future visit?

It's a similar situation over here, fortunately no footballers to ripoff and there isn't a culture of litigation nor health and safety.
Outside of licensed facilities no one charges, little more than the occasional indemnity and request to not overfly a grumpy neighbour.
One resort kindly provides a driver - they figure if you can arrive by helicopter then they should make it easy for you to spend your money.
Maybe here it is still a novelty for the landowner and their patrons.
Inevitably someone will bring their son or daughter for a look and we'll encourage them to sit in the cockpit, headset on for a family pic, though we do warn them that they may be comitting the family to flight-training and bankruptcy when little Johnnie gets bigger.

Funny how different cultures treat aviation, differently.

Perhaps you just have people that want it to be overly exclusive and convince the Robbie's to go elsewhere :E
I suppose it's their choice to try extract money from you and yours to decline.
It's not like their target market is fly-ins, what have they got to lose? I can understand the mentality.

Work had us stay overnight at the Celtic manor they charged £6 for parking the car.........says it all.

In order for Grantley Hall to provide you with a helipad (it looks like a nice one they put effort into with well kept ground, concrete permitter and walking path, search google for "grantley hall helipad" and find the facebook video ... and when I look on Google Maps, is that even a waiting room / building they put in as well?), it appears they also spent time, effort and cost on planning application (Harrogate Borough Council 18/04483/FUL, "The use of land for a helipad |Grantley Hall Stephenson Bridge To Grantley Hall And West Lodge Grantley HG4 3ET", 23 consultations ....) only to have their neighbours hate them (39 public comments, 38 objections ...). So by all means, show them up for the money grubbing non-helicopter friendly people they are! How dare they not allow you to land your £300K helicopter for free! It's an outrage against your human rights !

I see you have a PPLA. How much would you be prepared to pay at a minor airfield?

That's disingenuous and not relevant. The genuine and relevant question is: with my PPLA, how much would I be prepared to pay for a landing fee at a minor airfield, or a landing fee at the grass strip at the Hall? For a minor airfield, which is in the business of aviation and has a higher frequency of flights, I would expect them to price carefully: landing fees not too high so as to put off people, and not too low so as to go out of business. £150 would be too high. If the Hall had it's own grass landing strip, so I could fly in and park for lunch, I'd consider £150 a not unexpected price for the nature and quality of the establishment. In the totality of the experience, I'd think £150 not great (don't we all want lower prices!) but reasonable and far under the nature of the circumstances.

If I go to the Lanesborough for lunch, whether with my Fiesta, Beemer or Rolls, I choose either the Lansborough's valet parking (likely to be high), or the parking garage down the street (much lower). I understand why for their facilities and other reasons, the valet parking fee is high. I don't bleat blue murder about it because I kind of expect that it goes with the territory. I don't expect to be given free valet parking. It's a free market and basic economics ...

Celtic Manor has changed its policy and doesn’t charge for guests (I landed and stayed overnight a couple of weeks ago). Not sure if its definition of ‘guest’ distinguishes between residents and visiting diners.

This is not entirely untrue for the US. For example, there are three folks checked out by the school I lease back to who SFH my R44 quite regularly. However I can't speak to how the US and EU compare in this respect overall. Certainly there's plenty of SFH fixed wing op's, not 100% sure where the US industry stands on this for rotary wing.

That certainly is true, at least in the northeast. I really do wish there were more commercial properties to land at. Off the top of my head I can think of only a half dozen or so across ME/NH/VT. I'm probably missing a few inns here or there.

The US experience is identical in this respect.

Again, the US experience is identical in this respect. Never heard of a landing fee at an off-airport facility in the US, but sometimes unworkable insurance requirements.

Matthew gbr,
My question was not at all meant to be disingenuous. It was actually a valid and sincere question.
But as far as what is relevant to the subject, valet parking of a car (irrespective of how much the car is worth) has absolutely nothing to do with landing a helicopter.
The point here is that a landing fee (or any other type of charge) can be expected in most circumstances. The discussion is whether or not a landing charge is reasonable for the level of service provided. As I said before, I've encountered a landing charge on a school field that was five times as much as this hotel wanted. Totally unreasonable in the view of most folk, I suspect.

150 coins is pretty steep if you'd ask me.

Shy, how can you quantify what is, ooh I'll risk saying it - reasonable - if you don't know what (if?) costs they incurred?
Looking at the planning application summary, they seem to have had a healthy number of consulting organisations (roads, environment, airspace, yada yada) to support the application.
I doubt it was a zero-cost/zero-effort process, and from the pics, they have at least spent a little bit of wedge on actual facilities.
I don't know market conditions in the area, but what is globally accepted, is anyone that calls themselves a consultant in a specialist area does not come cheap.
All this for what is quite an upmarket location where you're in for 35+ squid for a cocktail and a chicken skewer, so it comes with the territory, I suppose.