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-   -   Hawaii, passenger jumps from a helicopter (https://www.pprune.org/rotorheads/624397-hawaii-passenger-jumps-helicopter.html)

nomorehelosforme 8th Aug 2019 11:08

Hawaii, passenger jumps from a helicopter
 
This certainly ruffled a few feathers prompting an FAA investigation.

August 6, 2019 at 5:44 PM HST - Updated August 6 at 10:51 PM KANEOHE, Hawaii (HawaiiNewsNow) - The Federal Aviation Administration is investigating after cameras caught a helicopter flying low above boaters and beachgoers at the Kaneohe sandbar on Sunday.

At one point in the video clip sent to Hawaii News Now, you can see a passenger jumping out of the aircraft and into the ocean.



https://www.hawaiinewsnow.com/2019/0...neohe-sandbar/

Bell_ringer 8th Aug 2019 11:21

When I read the caption somehow I pictured a Robbie. Sure enough.

blakmax 8th Aug 2019 12:05


Originally Posted by Bell_ringer (Post 10539967)
When I read the caption somehow I pictured a Robbie. Sure enough.

Surely you are not suggesting self-preservation?

aa777888 8th Aug 2019 12:50

FFS :ugh: Absolutely no US laws or regulations were broken. This is no different than skydiving. The helicopter and jumper were, judged by the video, a perfectly safe distance from other people when the jumper jumped or if the engine quit. Any investigation by the FAA, if they even bother to do anything at all, will be quick, pointless, and result in no action (unless they turn up some other nonsense like an expired medical, not enough flotation devices, etc.).

You can argue about the wisdom of this event, but you can also make the same argument about skydiving, scuba diving, motorcycle riding, a hundred other things or, <shudder> actually leaving the ground in an aircraft <the horror>.

What should be happening is that they should be getting a court order that requires these fearful haters to stay in their homes, pad every sharp corner in them with bubble wrap, and require them to crawl from room to room lest they accidentally trip and fall!

Listen up you fearful haters: I am NOT YOU. DO NOT LEGISLATE RESTRICTIONS MY BEHAVIOR BASED ON YOUR FEARS.

Oh, and super-expert rescue swimmer dude: every operation in life does not have to be done to military standards. Sport skydiving methods and standards are different. Sport SCUBA diving methods and standards are different. Piloting methods and standards are different. And if they make a regular thing out of civilian swimmer delivery, no doubt those methods and standards will be different, too.

The tour industry better start pushing back HARD in Hawaii or they are going to be out of an industry fast. The voters, primarily comprised of fearful haters, outnumber them by a huge margin. Better start taking out some advertising, generating news interviews, explaining realities and telling these people to get a life, or your business life is going to end.

Sorry, this sh*t just sets me off big time. :{

Bell_ringer 8th Aug 2019 12:57


Originally Posted by blakmax (Post 10540004)
Surely you are not suggesting self-preservation?

pax: So are these the -5 blades?
pilot: yeah, you won’t believe the deal I got on this baby, ooh errr where’d he go? :}

212man 8th Aug 2019 13:37

Looks like two to me - there is a splash in the water and an object floating a few moments before we see the (second) jumper.

aa777888 8th Aug 2019 14:02


Originally Posted by Bell_ringer (Post 10540047)


pax: So are these the -5 blades?
pilot: yeah, you won’t believe the deal I got on this baby, ooh errr where’d he go? :}

I wouldn't know anyone like that ;)

My theory is that his beer cooler fell off his lap and he couldn't bear to parted from it :)

henra 8th Aug 2019 17:46


Originally Posted by blakmax (Post 10540004)
Surely you are not suggesting self-preservation?

As much as I understand jumping from a Robbo to get out of it. But would you really feel safer directly underneath?:E

India Four Two 8th Aug 2019 18:40



§ 91.15 Dropping objects.No pilot in command of a civil aircraft may allow any object to be dropped from that aircraft in flight that creates a hazard to persons or property. However, this section does not prohibit the dropping of any object if reasonable precautions are taken to avoid injury or damage to persons or property.
https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/14/91.15

Spunk 8th Aug 2019 19:23

It says objects NOT person. A human being is not an object.

Gordy 8th Aug 2019 19:35

I agree, no rule was broken, however, as aa777888 mentions, the Hawaii operators are fighting an uphill battle right now and acts like this do not help their plight. My sources tell me this aircraft was purchased by a group of "young kids who pooled to buy this old astro" and are basically flying around without regard for the rest of the industry.

[email protected] 8th Aug 2019 20:27


It says objects NOT person. A human being is not an object.
Spunk - google the definition of object and it will say it is a thing or person.

The get out here is that they caused no hazard to other persons or property. - Still pretty stupid mind.

aa777888 8th Aug 2019 20:57


Originally Posted by [email protected] (Post 10540352)
Spunk - google the definition of object and it will say it is a thing or person.

The get out here is that they caused no hazard to other persons or property. - Still pretty stupid mind.

Also, this is the FAR the FAA applies to skydiving and parachuting operations, among other things. So semantics aside, that's how the FAA interprets it.

How is this any more or less stupid than skydiving?

Disclaimer: I am also a USPA D license holder, so perhaps my perspectives are a bit skewed ;) (and skydiving in the US is, other than FAR 91.15 and a few FAR odds and ends about equipment and riggers, self-regulating in the same manner as SCUBA diving is in the US, i.e. USPA is the functional equivalent of PADI or NAUI).

PAXboy 8th Aug 2019 23:03

Everyone has a camera. Many have no idea what is real, legal, lawful, other than their own opinion. TV and media want to run 24x7 to get more money = Perfect ...

nomorehelosforme 9th Aug 2019 00:01


Originally Posted by aa777888 (Post 10540045)
FFS :ugh: Absolutely no US laws or regulations were broken. This is no different than skydiving. The helicopter and jumper were, judged by the video, a perfectly safe distance from other people when the jumper jumped or if the engine quit. Any investigation by the FAA, if they even bother to do anything at all, will be quick, pointless, and result in no action (unless they turn up some other nonsense like an expired medical, not enough flotation devices, etc.).

You can argue about the wisdom of this event, but you can also make the same argument about skydiving, scuba diving, motorcycle riding, a hundred other things or, <shudder> actually leaving the ground in an aircraft <the horror>.

What should be happening is that they should be getting a court order that requires these fearful haters to stay in their homes, pad every sharp corner in them with bubble wrap, and require them to crawl from room to room lest they accidentally trip and fall!

Listen up you fearful haters: I am NOT YOU. DO NOT LEGISLATE RESTRICTIONS MY BEHAVIOR BASED ON YOUR FEARS.

Oh, and super-expert rescue swimmer dude: every operation in life does not have to be done to military standards. Sport skydiving methods and standards are different. Sport SCUBA diving methods and standards are different. Piloting methods and standards are different. And if they make a regular thing out of civilian swimmer delivery, no doubt those methods and standards will be different, too.

The tour industry better start pushing back HARD in Hawaii or they are going to be out of an industry fast. The voters, primarily comprised of fearful haters, outnumber them by a huge margin. Better start taking out some advertising, generating news interviews, explaining realities and telling these people to get a life, or your business life is going to end.

Sorry, this sh*t just sets me off big time. :{

Agree with this on many points and perhaps add to the list(not necessarily in the US) the extreme sports skiers that want to jump out of a helicopter at the top of a mountain, risks there must be more considerable?

What might be more concerning that’s come out of this thread is Gordy’s comment about the owners and operators of this Robbie. What might they plan for their next little adventure... a quick night trip to buzz their friends outside a nightclub, a trip to pick one of them up a few miles away in atrocious weather or maybe just take the Robbie up the mountain for a bit of extreme skiing!

I would be surprised if one of them isn’t reading this thread. If so any comments?

helonorth 9th Aug 2019 02:15


Originally Posted by Bell_ringer (Post 10539967)
When I read the caption somehow I pictured a Robbie. Sure enough.

When I read the caption, I thought both Hawaii and a passenger jumped out of a helicopter.

[email protected] 9th Aug 2019 06:50


How is this any more or less stupid than skydiving?
jumping into any body of water you are not completely sure is safe is a good way to end up on a spinal board.- it's called tombstoning in UK (the name probably came from the US) and costs several people their lives or mobility a year in UK.

These guys may well have done a thorough recce and checked for rocks and other underwater obstacles.

Were the FAA more interested in the low flying than the jumping in?

aa - I think you skydivers are barking mad jumping out of a serviceable aircraft but if that's what floats your boat:ok: I've dropped plenty of parachutists from helicopters over the years but I still think it is tempting fate.

Fareastdriver 9th Aug 2019 08:26

Anybody that jumps out of a serviceable aeroplane is a lunatic.

andycba 9th Aug 2019 08:30


Originally Posted by Fareastdriver (Post 10540630)
Anybody that jumps out of a serviceable aeroplane is a lunatic.

Not really - https://uspa.org/p/Article/a-record-...tality-summary

SuperF 9th Aug 2019 08:42

if i ever got back in a robbie, i would probably jump out as well.

I have however flown guys out to jump into the sea, it was a display, but i will never take parachuters, too much risk for me, with parachutes releasing in the machine...

[email protected] 9th Aug 2019 08:52

I was dropping the Red Devils over Nicosia back in the 80s from 8000' in a Wessex when the team mistook a thumbs up from the jump leader (checking that one of his guys in the back was OK) for the pull smoke and jump signal.

They pulled the smoke and didn't jump.

In a Wessex, any smoke, smell or fumes from the cabin gets sucked straight up into the cockpit so I was IMC inside with red and blue smoke..........shouting at them to get the F out of my helicopter:)

SuperF 9th Aug 2019 09:31

there is a video on youtube from inside the cabin of a JR/LR after a chute had been released inside the machine, and was almost going into the Main/Tail rotor.

after watching that i decided i would leave that stuff to guys with crews in the back and wings on their shoulders. having trained Airforce crew in the back and trained jumpers under a bit more control is the way to do that. Random guys that want the thrill of jumping from a helicopter doesn't do it for me, and obviously from the above, even with all the training they can still do something silly...

ShyTorque 9th Aug 2019 11:47

As the saying goes, you can try to make something idiot proof but then along comes a better class of idiot!

aa777888 9th Aug 2019 12:37


Originally Posted by [email protected] (Post 10540594)
aa - I think you skydivers are barking mad jumping out of a serviceable aircraft but if that's what floats your boat:ok: I've dropped plenty of parachutists from helicopters over the years but I still think it is tempting fate.

Ha ha! Well, it was my door to the best kind of aviation: skydiving --> private fixed wing (can't be around airplanes all day and not know how to fly them!) --> commercial helicopter :)

But, back on thread, sort of: there is always a skewed perception of risk among the less knowledgeable. While it is difficult to make direct comparisons, your chance of dying on any given jump is not very different, and probably less, than on any given helicopter flight, on an individual basis, just looking at yearly fatality totals. So we are all crazy for leaving the ground regardless of what we might be doing when we do it. Another case in point: if I told you I was a motorcycle road racer, and I was for about a decade of my earlier life, all of you mad-for-motorcycles pilots would cheer me and possibly even be a bit jealous. But I can tell you I was far more concerned about dying doing that then skydiving. Indeed, my skydiving career also spanned roughly a decade. I never saw anyone die while skydiving and only saw one person get seriously injured (bad swoop landing--what else is new?) But I actually did see one person die when racing, and saw many, many people go the hospital with very serious injuries. So just because it looks stupid doesn't mean it is any more or less stupid than things that average people find more emotionally or intellectually accessible.

[email protected] 9th Aug 2019 15:20


As the saying goes, you can try to make something idiot proof but then along comes a better class of idiot!
that's why the Gold Standard was being able to make something 'Squaddie-Proof' :E:)

Or so I though until I heard about a soldier throwing himself out of the personnel door in the side of a Herc in the South Atlantic for a laugh! Fortunately the monkey-harness saved him!

Self loading bear 9th Aug 2019 21:00

Monkey proof is pretty well known.

In 2007 the Alfa male Gorilla escaped from his den in the Rotterdam Zoo.
Since then we have officially added the word Bokito_proof to our Dutch language.

Two's in 9th Aug 2019 22:22

Approach A: Start helicopter, fly over ocean, drop pax, get filmed, get reported to FAA for investigation, impress all the local professional operators who do this for a living.

Approach B: Call the FSDO, explain plan and safety measures (task experience and recce of drop site), drop pax, get filmed, FAA handle phone calls with full knowledge of the activity.

Unless you're an actual drama queen who loves the attention (you know who you are), then some PPP to prevent PPP never hurt anybody. There is a website for people who think the rules don't apply to them, its membership is always very popular...

https://www.ntsb.gov/_layouts/ntsb.aviation/month.aspx

aa777888 9th Aug 2019 22:29


Originally Posted by Two's in (Post 10541262)
There is a website for people who think the rules don't apply to them

Assuming it wasn't a revenue flight, exactly what rules, laws or regulations did these guys break?

Gordy 9th Aug 2019 23:00


Originally Posted by aa777888 (Post 10541265)
Assuming it wasn't a revenue flight, exactly what rules, laws or regulations did these guys break?

I'm with you, I cannot see any rule they broke. While, yes it may have been prudent to pre-warn the FAA, in reality there is nothing they can do.

henra 10th Aug 2019 09:26


Originally Posted by Gordy (Post 10541290)
I'm with you, I cannot see any rule they broke. While, yes it may have been prudent to pre-warn the FAA, in reality there is nothing they can do.

You both did see that [email protected]'s in referred to the monthly accidents page of NTSB not the FAA website?!
If anything they broke the rule of common sense. Jumping from >20ft into murky water. Punishment for such actions will not come from the FAA but from fate.

aa777888 10th Aug 2019 13:13


Originally Posted by henra (Post 10541550)
If anything they broke the rule of common sense. Jumping from >20ft into murky water. Punishment for such actions will not come from the FAA but from fate.

Ridiculous. Wrap yourself in bubble wrap and stay home. Meanwhile others will continue to enjoy and live their lives to the fullest.

https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune....1a32924446.png
https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune....8a3b9f6fef.png
https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune....cb6c310fbe.png
https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune....a79dfaea79.png
https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune....d2437166e0.png
https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune....656b081ec6.png
https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune....8ff5baadf3.png

And, last but not least...

https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune....b16598ffd1.png

Everyone dies. But not everyone really lives.

Bell_ringer 10th Aug 2019 13:25


Originally Posted by aa777888 (Post 10541726)
Ridiculous. Wrap yourself in bubble wrap and stay home. Meanwhile others will continue to enjoy and live their lives to the fullest.

That would be true when it is just you putting your own life at risk.
When that guy got behind the controls he became accountable for the well-being of those onboard, it's one of those annoying responsibilities that comes with the job.
Just because you can, doesn't mean you should.
If you want to go hurt yourself or others, then rather do it in a way that won't push up insurance for the rest of us or result in stiffer regulatory control by continuing to annoy the public who don't give a Monkey's nuts for whether or not it's legal.
Whatever happened to airmanship?

aa777888 10th Aug 2019 14:30

That pilot's airmanship was just fine. And I'm willing to bet quite a few beers the gentleman who jumped was not pushed.

But..are you saying that helicopter pilots should no longer take people into potentially dangerous conditions? So no more heli-skiiing for instance? No more parachute jumps or skydives? How and why can you draw the line between something like those things and something this? They are the same thing.

I will agree that the location was suspect, but only in a political context, because of the currently hostile political climate towards ANY helicopter operations in that part of Hawaii. But from the perspective of intrinsic personal responsibility and "airmanship" (if that latter even applies), no, I'm never going to agree that this was a bad op based on the available video evidence.

I am sick to death of being nanny-stated to death (I guess they are going to get me either way, then!) Just because somebody thinks it's a bad thing doesn't mean I think it's a bad thing. You are free to tell me I'm an idiot (and I think you did, but very politely :}), but don't legislate my compliance due to your fears when there is absolutely no public safety issue.

To perhaps drift this thread in a slightly different, less controversial direction, clearly they've got some hate from the planet-bound over high density helicopter op's in Hawaii. The same is happening in Long Island right now (see my other topic). Local to me, in the past couple of years we've seen a fine restaurant that was helicopter friendly close its helipad, and a small local airport restrict helicopter operations. Are helicopter operations becoming so much more prevalent that they are becoming a nuisance? Is it now too easy, and affordable, for someone to get an R44, or an FAA LOA for tour op's, or even a Part 135 certificate?

[email protected] 10th Aug 2019 14:52

Let them do it once without protest and they will surely do it again and again - personal freedom comes with personal responsibilities, one of which is respect for others.

aa777888 10th Aug 2019 15:52

The flip side of this is respect for other people's freedom. Something that has been eroding for decades in US society, and which is accelerating here at a frightening rate. It is, of course, already long gone in most other "western" countries. It is unsurprising to find such attitudes on this list, which is really more world-centric (if not UK-centric) than US-centric.

Indeed, I was flying a couple of gents from Ireland the other day, one load on the ride concession we were operating out of a local fairground. They were immensely surprised that we could pretty much fly and land where we wanted, needing only permission of the landowner. When I was resting between shifts a couple from Greece chatted me up on the ground and made the exact same observations.

One needs to constantly push back against any encroachments on freedom. Sometimes the "system" helps you. I put an FAA registered heliport on my property (it is a very large property, well in excess of 20 acres) so that if the fearful haters ever decide to vote in zoning regulations that outlaw aircraft operations in my town I will be grandfathered (that's how the law works around these parts).

I respect my neighbor's freedoms. A little target practice? No problem. A few fireworks? The same. Keeping some pigs, or horses, or dogs, or chickens, and maybe one escaped onto my property? No problem, but that pig sure was tasty (just kidding ;)) I don't try to legislate their freedom to do these things away. Because, you know, I just might want to do the same things myself someday. And everyone gets helicopter rides, of course! But that was just gilding the lily because the traffic noise around here is actually worse then the noise I make with the helicopter.

But I know I'm a dinosaur, headed for extinction. There are too many other people who want to decide what I can do, how I can act, what I can say, and they are, sadly, winning. I could wax poetic as to why and how, but I'm already so far off track in this topic I better just stop typing. In the meantime I moved ten years ago to what will likely be one of the last bastions of freedom in the US. The only question now is whether or not this last bastion will last until I die a natural death.

Bell_ringer 10th Aug 2019 16:04


Originally Posted by [email protected] (Post 10541786)
Let them do it once without protest and they will surely do it again and again - personal freedom comes with personal responsibilities, one of which is respect for others.

Personal freedom also comes at a cost.

If someone wants to take on risk, that really is their business if it affects no one else.
That is more challenging in regulated and structured environments like aviation.
I don't know what is commonplace in the US, if people leaping out of every Robbie (or any other make for that matter) is the norm, that is y'all business.

In less civilised parts of the world you need training, approval or permissions to lob anything out of an aircraft.
That isn't because of the nanny state, it is because time has shown that with impromptu, dicking-about in an aircraft, eventually someone gets hurt.

Personally I consider good airmanship to be a bit more than if something is legal, or not. A poor choice of location and wobbly correction of a sudden change in lateral CoG doesn't help change that view.
This isn't a video that will help improve the reputation of Robbie drivers, no matter how much one does protest.

[email protected] 10th Aug 2019 16:52

aa - the problem with your viewpoint is that it only works if you are 20 acres away from your next neighbour - very few people have that luxury nowadays in most parts of the world.

Try applying your 'freedoms' (perhaps read selfish behaviour) in a place with higher population density and problems will occur.


The flip side of this is respect for other people's freedom. Something that has been eroding for decades in US society, and which is accelerating here at a frightening rate.
just because someone expects you to pay taxes and play by some pretty fair rules? You really don't know just how good you have got it.

Gordy 10th Aug 2019 17:46


Originally Posted by henra (Post 10541550)
You both did see that [email protected]'s in referred to the monthly accidents page of NTSB not the FAA website?!
If anything they broke the rule of common sense. Jumping from >20ft into murky water. Punishment for such actions will not come from the FAA but from fate.

Have you swam there? I lived in Hawaii 7 years, the water is clear most of the time.

Old Dogs 10th Aug 2019 19:29


Originally Posted by aa777888 (Post 10540045)
FFS :ugh: Absolutely no US laws or regulations were broken. This is no different than skydiving.

Listen up you fearful haters: I am NOT YOU. DO NOT LEGISLATE RESTRICTIONS MY BEHAVIOR BASED ON YOUR FEARS.

Sorry, this sh*t just sets me off big time. :{

VERY well said, and I totally agree.

Bell_ringer 10th Aug 2019 19:42

Let’s MIFHGA- make idiots flying helicopters great again. :E


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