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EC135 training helicopter crashed in a corn field in Germany
The helicopter crashed with two people on board in a corn field.A female pilot died, the other pilot survives. As a result of the crash a cornfield burned. Sorry, i can not insert a link..
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Its was an Army EC135 from the nearby (30 km) training facility (Bückeburg). Pilot burned with helicopter, instructor got thrown out and was injured and transported to Hospital rumors are low flying excercise |
Any news Bull?
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Both pilots had around 450 FH and were in training to become instructor pilots (FAIP).
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Heard the same: two FI(H) applicants on a "stick buddy" mission.:uhoh: RIP
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Originally Posted by Praet
(Post 10507821)
Both pilots had around 450 FH and were in training to become instructor pilots (FAIP).
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Originally Posted by haihio
(Post 10508016)
What does 450 FH mean ? Accident happened on a low flying route, where low flying down to 3 meters (10 feet) is allowed. Flying that low at speed it sometimes requires to lift the nose before a turn cause otherwise the rotorblades might touch the ground.... but that’s just speculation. |
Originally Posted by Flying Bull
(Post 10508021)
450 flight hours.... Accident happened on a low flying route, where low flying down to 3 meters (10 feet) is allowed. Flying that low at speed it sometimes requires to lift the nose before a turn cause otherwise the rotorblades might touch the ground.... but that’s just speculation. Thanks for clarifying that. Very junior pilots then. |
450h is not that junior in my book for a trainee. For an instructor it certainly is. That both had about the same is somewhat baffling. I guess we are missing some piece of the puzzle. |
Things can easily go wrong on this type of flight. Learning how to instruct puts different pressures on pilots and the learning curve is very steep. For example:
Early on during my QHI course, in the early 1980s, I was flying an RAF Gazelle on a mutual sortie with my Navy stick buddy, who had previously shown himself to be a pilot who often flew in a "highly spirited fashion". Until that time, both of us were used to flying single pilot. To cut a long story short, he was supposed to be acting as my student and after demonstrating whatever manoeuvre it was we were teaching / practicing ( I can't remember now what that was, it was 35 years ago), I gave him control. A few seconds later, the nose went down and the speed increased markedly as advertised then the nose came up very sharply and I thought my "stude" was bored again and about to show me (again) how the Navy flew a wingover. However, as the aircraft went well beyond 90 degrees nose up, I began to think "What the Hell is he doing...?" I looked across at him, only to see him looking across at me with a strange look on his face and at that point we both realised that neither of us was actually flying the aircraft and that it was about to loop all by itself. We both said the same word beginning with "S" and we both grabbed the controls. Thankfully, we both decided that a roll off the top was the best way out of this rather extreme "U. P." and we both decided to roll the same way. We learned quite a lot about being an instructor that day. Edit: Just checked my old logbook - at that time I had about a thousand hours more than these unfortunate pilots appear to have had. |
Say 200 - 250 hours to go through basic and advanced flying training - that leaves 200 hours of 'experience' before training as an instructor. That would be very unusual in the British Military RW world but 'Creamy' FW pilots are often taken straight out of the training system to become QFIs.
Perhaps the German Army has a similar system to the 'Creamy' one - they are called creamy's because they are supposed to be the cream at the top and are skimmed off. In my experience many are p*ssed off because they get left behind in the training system while their (theoretically not so able) mates go on to front-line. |
We are talking of the german army.
3/4 of their helicopters (well talking about Tigers and CH53 not EC135) are real estate and not airworthy. I have yet to meet an helicopter pilot who does not complain to get more than the bare minimum flight time. That's the state of affairs here. They have an army of McKinsey consultants to pay. |
BDA, how times change. At the Hanover Airshow in 1982, the HEER attended with a CH-53G. I looked it over closely and you know-it looked like it came off the production line-absolutely spotless and in the charge of a Leutnant, who was personally assigned to that tail number. As to this thread, Sergei Sikorsky was there and arranged for Karl Zimmerman to get a demo ride in the UH-60 we had there. It was supposed to be a pilot demo in which we would demonstrate, and then have the guest pilot take a turn in flying to pretty much the approved envelope limits. BUT, Sergei then seated himself in the back, followed by Karl’s spouse and child, one of our Marketing guys and several other “ guests “. The pilot demo was obviously off, but after getting us out of the airport zone, I handed the controls to Karl, and planned on talking him thru a docile flight that wouldn’t require the use of the barf bags we always had along. After a few minutes of gentle turns etc, Karl descended toward an open farmers field, then proceeded to kick the speed up to 130+ and at 15 ft or so, he talked me thru what he did on a BO-105 anti tank training flight, as we sped along, between tree lines etc. I was sitting on the edge of the seat with my hands lightly on the controls...in case. Karl looked over at my concern, smiled, and said on the intercom “ John, you really ought to try this sometime “. One of the seemingly longest flights I can recall. The beauty and combined technical excellence with ballet-like artistry demonstrated every day by Karl at that show in his 105 acrobatic demo is a whole different subject. That flight described above was a set-up for the sort of event this thread addresses. |
Maybe they were going for a forced landing - Engine off or something and mistakenly took the top of the corn to be the ground. Speculation but been done before
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Have a buddy who was in helo maintenance at said army school. German army pilots have flown less than 100h a year for a good while now. Around 2010 they pushed many of the last 2000+ instructors into resigning or early retirement - not enough airworthy ac and not enough money for hours. Not saying these two poor souls where not good pilots, not saying FAIP doesn’t work. But 450h, 1/3 of it in sim according to some sources? I am pretty sure most flyers would prefer to become seasoned operational pilots before assigned to school. In the end it’s austerity. Everyone who is in any real life role, be it an army pilot or a nurse or a train driver, knows it: paper pushers deny the worth of slow grown real life experience and think they can withdraw funding for those who are out there every day. Their practical training, their maintenance intervals, their salaries, it’s all up for degradation all the time to save cost at all cost. But no e-learning and no raw talent will ever replace giving professional people what they need to do their jobs: good gear, time to grow and an appropriate pay. Somebody mentioned it: German MoD in house decision making was replaced by McKinsey consultants. Tax money (billions literally) is plundered and cannonballed into consultancy and corporations but pilots can’t get a thousand operational hours. Same for all other public services. Did I mention the minister who installed McK is von der Leyen who is set to lead the EU commission? Watch out for so much more to come. Oh, and her son is - a US McKinsey partner. So disgusting. These people are extremists, and for some they are deadly. Edit: hope the dead pilot was knocked unconscious for she burned up in her seat. |
Great post Krautwald - neatly sums up the problem with letting accountants rule the world - cost comes before everything else regardless of the longer term impact.
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Originally Posted by [email protected]
(Post 10509526)
Great post Krautwald - neatly sums up the problem with letting accountants rule the world - cost comes before everything else regardless of the longer term impact.
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A bit over a year old, but this article informs as to the existing conditions: https://www.dw.com/en/1-in-10-german...ime/a-43646369 |
I still can‘t believe that anybody considers a helicopter pilot with a total time of 450 hours to be very experienced. Ignorance or arrogance? |
Originally Posted by Spunk
(Post 10509758)
Ignorance or arrogance? |
In your civvy world, you turn out instructors who have just passed their commercial licence. They only have 100 hrs more than their zero-time student. At least these instructors have probably 2 or 3 years in the squadron.
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Originally Posted by Ascend Charlie
(Post 10509897)
In your civvy world, you turn out instructors who have just passed their commercial licence. They only have 100 hrs more than their zero-time student. At least these instructors have probably 2 or 3 years in the squadron.
Flying around about 100 hours per year is a complete joke, who can stay current doing that.... |
exactly
And how many PPLH holders are doing 100 hrs a year?
https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune....b3c7c1be2b.jpg Just hung up my boots |
Just as many as trying to fly fast turns 8ft from the ground; everything is relative. However, I have more hours than they did, and I would not try to instruct anyone (and yes, I can get an instructor qualification as a PPL here in EASA land). I would hope that army combat pilots get more than 2hrs a week (on average), but seems they don’t |
Originally Posted by ersa
(Post 10509907)
I highly doubt low hour civil instructors would be allowed to do what happened here.
Flying around about 100 hours per year is a complete joke, who can stay current doing that.... |
Regarding "on average"
What the articles linked by JohnDixon and me are missing is the fact that of that approximate dozen airworthy choppers per type a significant number are on missions in foreign countries like Mali or Kosovo. Good luck for those who are not there in terms of family life. Bad luck for their logbook. And they are not exactly flying training sorties there either. One could argue that the real situation is worse than the numbers suggest. |
Has there been any report released as yet?
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We'll never see one ... unless there is some parlamentary discovery request.
As no civil aircraft was involved the investigation is solely handeled by the general flight safety of the Bundeswehr. The BFU is not involved. And the military never releases public reports ... |
The military does sometimes - but you need to know, where to look ;-)
https://www.bundeswehr-journal.de/ta...lugsicherheit/ |
What I've found there qualifies as news but hardly as accident investigation report.
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There was some data around a while back that accidents were more likely to occur at experience levels of 500 hours, 1,000 hours and then multiples thereof. All to do with the experience/complacency curves crossing at those points. We were definitely made aware of those points from a Flight Safety point of view. As for this accident from over a year ago, I will be duly surprised if anything new comes out from having relatively inexperienced crew flying close to the ground, unless something important fell off during a critical stage, being smited by the earth will remain depressingly familiar.
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The question of hours is much the same as in the 60s. In the Navy we were rapidly expanding helicopters so the requirement for instructors meant that a lot became QHIs after only one tour. As Shy Torque #10 says, there were plenty of "incidents"" during mutual training as the boundaries were pushed (the Top Gun mentality meant you tried to be better than your buddy). That is why you were accepted for military training in the first place - fly the edge of the flight envelope or the opposition would. Typical annual hours in the FAA were 2-250 hours p.a. until the Sea King arrived. In the 70s there were multiple fuel crises and non exercise we were limited to 10 hours per month of which 5 were night. Not good if you were on a small ship in crowded European waters!
Military flying can never be 'cost effective' until called on for real so is always subject to budget restrictions. We can use simulators to save costs to maintain some handling skills but only the aircraft ever provides "experience". |
Unless the report proofs that this accident had anything to do with a technical failure, I blame the military for trying to train low time pilots to become flight instructors.
At this level, they cannot even fly as Pic in a combat mission, left alone teach anyone to fly outside a helicopter traffic pattern.. This is the military - not a commercial ATO training in the pattern for 50 hours before doing cross country at 500 ft.. (exaggerating a little bit here..) |
Originally Posted by hueyracer
(Post 10846904)
Unless the report proofs that this accident had anything to do with a technical failure, I blame the military for trying to train low time pilots to become flight instructors.
At this level, they cannot even fly as Pic in a combat mission, left alone teach anyone to fly outside a helicopter traffic pattern.. This is the military - not a commercial ATO training in the pattern for 50 hours before doing cross country at 500 ft.. (exaggerating a little bit here..) |
Anyone know if Creamies are still a thing in MFTS? Most people who did NI as a tour in the 80s (and probably 70s and 90's) easily broke 1000 hours in their 2 years and it was all short hop, multiple take offs and landings, usually at MAUW and in ****e weather with a very real small arms and SAM threat, so brilliant training for a first tourist. And just before anyone starts - I know it wasn't 'Nam but for a peace-time situation there was a lot of shooting and bombing going on.:) |
Originally Posted by [email protected]
(Post 10847455)
And just before anyone starts - I know it wasn't 'Nam but for a peace-time situation there was a lot of shooting and bombing going on.
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Originally Posted by [email protected]
(Post 10847455)
I think it is still, and always has been, a FW thing. You used to have to do 2 tours in the RAF before QHI and I would have been the first to do it after first tour in NI had they not need Wessex 'experience' (1000 hours in 2 year tour) in Cyprus so another colleague went QHI after one tour a few months later.
Most people who did NI as a tour in the 80s (and probably 70s and 90's) easily broke 1000 hours in their 2 years and it was all short hop, multiple take offs and landings, usually at MAUW and in ****e weather with a very real small arms and SAM threat, so brilliant training for a first tourist. And just before anyone starts - I know it wasn't 'Nam but for a peace-time situation there was a lot of shooting and bombing going on.:) |
Ah, but you Puma boys were 'special' Shy :E:)
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Originally Posted by [email protected]
(Post 10847537)
Ah, but you Puma boys were 'special' Shy :E:)
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