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-   -   AW 139 Hard Landing in Spain. (https://www.pprune.org/rotorheads/622472-aw-139-hard-landing-spain.html)

skadi 15th Jun 2019 19:00


Originally Posted by hueyracer (Post 10494539)
Guys,

The second engine will continue to operate for a few more minutes....

few more seconds would sound better..

C80

Same again 16th Jun 2019 04:57

That depends on the levels of the tanks.

Hedski 16th Jun 2019 22:42

But if you run out of fuel you run out of fuel and all goes quiet whether you be over congested hostile, open green (as in this instance) or even the icy waters of the Antarctic. There are many issues being described by the quoted crewmember, crm even when single pilot could have saved the day perhaps with the right training. But as per Almeria 139 fatal ditching a few years ago SASEMAR and Spanish operators in general aren’t big on CRM or even standards for that matter.

as365n4 18th Jun 2019 20:23

I do not know if this is the same Aircraft but the last entry for G-CIJX on Flightradar looks a bit suspicious. 11:31 UTC at an altitude of 6450ft with 150kts ground speed an then it all stops.
https://www.flightradar24.com/data/a...-cijx#20dd2132

And a day later G-CIJW was ferried to the resuce, straight from Verigate to Alicante via St.Tropez.
https://www.flightradar24.com/data/a...-cijw#20e1b8ca

gulliBell 18th Jun 2019 21:02

6450' with 150 kts GS final data point doesn't look like an OEI configuration to me.

minigundiplomat 18th Jun 2019 21:11


SASEMAR and Spanish operators in general aren’t big on CRM or even standards for that matter.
Slightly unfair on SASEMAR, they are the customer, not operator. I believe the operator is still Babcock Espana, and agree with the comment on standards in that case. The former INAER operations that were purchased by Babcock in 2014 as part of the Avincis deal have suffered several incidents, and several anti-trust investigations in Italy and Spain. One may of expected an improvement when Babcock took over, but........

Still, they are cheap, which seems to be the key metric for customers these days.

nevillestyke 18th Jun 2019 21:22

Good Spot; Best Direction?
 

Originally Posted by gulliBell (Post 10494329)
He picked a good spot to aim for. Too bad the bit at the bottom didn't go quite to plan. Off to the sim for some practice.

Wouldn't up slope be better, if possible, to judge the touchdown, unless the tailwind would be too great? Does down slope mean that too much collective, too early could cause a big drop from an over run? I'm fixed wing hanglider, so speculating, but I always go for an up slope to judge it spot on. Here's an extreme upslope at 0:54:

gulliBell 18th Jun 2019 21:38

In to wind and not hitting anything is what you should be planning on. Slope doesn't matter.

Vortexringshark 19th Jun 2019 07:51

Regardless of what caused both engines to go I would be happy with that outcome if it were me. An auto to walk away from and the aircraft not a complete waste is a tick in the box for me.

Non-PC Plod 19th Jun 2019 11:10


Originally Posted by gulliBell (Post 10497101)
In to wind and not hitting anything is what you should be planning on. Slope doesn't matter.

I'm with you on that. If you can find an area of open ground with minimum hard objects in this situation, you are lucky.

212man 19th Jun 2019 11:31


Originally Posted by Non-PC Plod (Post 10497578)
I'm with you on that. If you can find an area of open ground with minimum hard objects in this situation, you are lucky.

plus there’s a world of difference in judging appropriate flare heights etc doing 80 kts and a partially obstructed view ahead, compared to a hanglider at what? 15 kts and unobstructed view.

gulliBell 19th Jun 2019 13:33


Originally Posted by Vortexringshark (Post 10497391)
..I would be happy with that outcome if it were me. An auto to walk away from and the aircraft not a complete waste is a tick in the box for me.

Maybe. Maybe not. If you don't screw up the initial transition into auto-rotation, and get a stable descent happening, and you have a big flat open area to aim for, you should be able to put it on the ground without a scratch. Call the fuel truck to top you up, maybe send another pilot and continue on.

nevillestyke 19th Jun 2019 14:10


Originally Posted by 212man (Post 10497596)

plus there’s a world of difference in judging appropriate flare heights etc doing 80 kts and a partially obstructed view ahead, compared to a hanglider at what? 15 kts and unobstructed view.

Pulling on enough speed on a kingpostless hanglider, to flare up a moderate slope is about 30 kts. Stalling speed is 15 kts.

Non-PC Plod 19th Jun 2019 17:51


Originally Posted by gulliBell (Post 10497699)
Maybe. Maybe not. If you don't screw up the initial transition into auto-rotation, and get a stable descent happening, and you have a big flat open area to aim for, you should be able to put it on the ground without a scratch. Call the fuel truck to top you up, maybe send another pilot and continue on.

If you get a big open area which has no rocks, ruts, rabbit holes, boggy ground or wires on it, you might get away without a scratch. If thats what you get, the gods are on your side.

SASless 19th Jun 2019 18:33

Watching the video....and seeing all of the nice pretty flat clear areas the hang glider pilot forsake for where he did wind up....I would suggest he could have done a much easier job of getting his aircraft down than he did. Just saying!

Vortexringshark 19th Jun 2019 20:32


Originally Posted by Non-PC Plod (Post 10497868)
If you get a big open area which has no rocks, ruts, rabbit holes, boggy ground or wires on it, you might get away without a scratch. If thats what you get, the gods are on your side.

Yeap. That nice flat open area you spotted when you enter auto tends to look a bit different about the stage you start to flare.

nevillestyke 20th Jun 2019 00:23


Originally Posted by SASless (Post 10497900)
Watching the video....and seeing all of the nice pretty flat clear areas the hang glider pilot forsake for where he did wind up....I would suggest he could have done a much easier job of getting his aircraft down than he did. Just saying!

Ah, but landing on the nice flat fields leaves you at the bottom of the hill, so you have to pack the glider away and load it onto a car to drive it back to the take off, where it has to be rigged again; a turnaround of 90 minutes. If you land on the slope, you can carry the glider fully rigged (a mere 105 lbs, with the harness) 200' back up to the top of the hill in just 15 minutes and be ready to take off into the next thermal. It also gives you a good workout.

SLFMS 20th Jun 2019 01:47


Originally Posted by Vortexringshark (Post 10497391)
Regardless of what caused both engines to go I would be happy with that outcome if it were me. An auto to walk away from and the aircraft not a complete waste is a tick in the box for me.


+2 on that comment. Slope is pretty hard to pick from 6000ft. Autos to the ground in twins are not something most civilian pilots get practice at. The Sim is great but it's not the real world. I tip my hat to the Pilot for the auto at least. Walked away with aircraft partially damaged. Babcock should be able to afford the insurance bill with all the savings they are making with wages.

gulliBell 20th Jun 2019 03:37


Originally Posted by SLFMS (Post 10498198)
...I tip my hat to the Pilot for the auto at least....

Yep. But IF he ran out of fuel, nope.


hueyracer 20th Jun 2019 10:10

A good landing is any landing you can walk away from....

A great landing is any landing you walk away from AND can use the aircraft again!


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