PPRuNe Forums

PPRuNe Forums (https://www.pprune.org/)
-   Rotorheads (https://www.pprune.org/rotorheads-23/)
-   -   Air Ambulance (https://www.pprune.org/rotorheads/608599-air-ambulance.html)

ARobur 8th May 2018 03:38

Air Ambulance
Anyone in or around Ayrshire interested in starting an air ambulance service?

Thomas coupling 8th May 2018 08:00

Yeah, OK then.....................

You're not in Marketing are you?

ARobur 8th May 2018 09:44

Nope. Why are you interested?

Thomas coupling 8th May 2018 12:38

Christ! You're serious!
Is that it then - starting up a multi million pound org with loads of staff, rules, regs, compliances, safety plans, risk registers, sponsors, aircraft, maintenance, finances, volunteer workforce, training, real estate, pensions, insurance cover, SOP's, advertising, auditing, rostering, customers?

Anyone in or around Ayrshire interested in starting an air ambulance service?
Need a bit more to go on, methinks.........:rolleyes:

GrayHorizonsHeli 8th May 2018 14:19

i spilled my coffee.....thanks a bunch

ARobur 9th May 2018 19:54

Sorry bout that, wasn't deliberate :D

HughMartin 9th May 2018 22:06

How much £££ do you need?

ARobur 9th May 2018 22:17

I think I can keep the clinical and marketing costs below £15000 if most of the monitors, trolleys, ventilators e.t.c. are rented rather than purchased.
The aviation costs I'm not quite so sure about, one of the reasons I'm posting here is to try and find out more about it.

I forget the helicopter used by London HEMS but it uses a jetstream rather than a tail rotor for stabilization and the main rotors are higher so it can be used in urban areas without decapitating people who don't have the sense to stand back.

ARobur 9th May 2018 22:22

I just looked it up. Apparently it's a Mcdonnell Douglas Explorer. It looked far too small inside to be able to carry a stretchered patient but according to one of the HEMS firemen I spoke to they do use them to extract patients as well as for rapid response.

[email protected] 10th May 2018 03:42

ARobur - if that is the depth and breadth of your aviation knowledge, I suggest you do a whole lot more research before asking here. Have you tried ringing one of the many charities that provide AA in UK?

ARobur 10th May 2018 04:56

I've done some training with London HEMS, although they're really established and they've got quite an extensive scope of practice. They're well funded enough to be able to operate quite routinely as well unlike other places like Oxfordshire. The delivery varies across the UK as well like up until recently in Ulster it was mainly provided by the military and in Scotland it's usually private companies.

minigundiplomat 10th May 2018 06:52

I've done some training with London HEMS, although they're really established and they've got quite an extensive scope of practice. They're well funded enough to be able to operate quite routinely as well unlike other places like Oxfordshire. The delivery varies across the UK as well like up until recently in Ulster it was mainly provided by the military and in Scotland it's usually private companies.
Half right - its a private company delivering on behalf of Scottish Air Ambulance.

I am guessing you are a clinician of some form; helicopters are an expensive business, you're going to have to rattle a lot of tins, and people are probably going to ask 'why do we need another service when we already have one?'. But please, it's your time, burn through it however you wish......

HughMartin 10th May 2018 06:57

In Scotland there are already two full time air ambulance helicopters ( one based at Glasgow, the other at Inverness) fully funded by the Scottish Government via the Scottish Ambulance Service. They are supplemented by two fixed wing aircraft.

The aircraft are supplied by a private company under contract but are managed by the ambulance service. There is also a charity funded helicopter based at Perth.

But I guess you know all this already.

Thomas coupling 10th May 2018 10:15

Arobur (A robber?).
I'm new here too (:suspect:).
Assuming this isn't some sort of wind up, because you have nothing better to do, let me give you some idea:
Leasing a modern twin turbine helicopter to include maintenance, insurance, spares, depreciation: £3 million minimum/year.
Staff costs (IF single pilot? minimum:4 pilots/paramedics/doctors? / back room bureaucrats / CEO: £750,000/year.
Maintaining your AOC: £12k/year.
Insurance for legal liability/hull/director/product/passenger: £50k/year.
Operational equipment (medical/NVD/flying kit): Initial outlay: £2 million? Servicing: £50k/year.
Airbase: Purchase land? Build helipad and hangar? Maintain:? Lease someones helipad?
Training: £20k/year.
Then there are the volunteers who provide the income by spending their valuable spare time shaking the public down for such a good cause: Welfare/running costs/overheads?
Adverttsing and recruitng?

Apart from that it's a cinch, I guess.

Now - what was the question Mr A robber?

homonculus 10th May 2018 10:29

Be gentle TC

He is going to get a helicopter with a jetstream...... never seen one of those :ok:

GrayHorizonsHeli 10th May 2018 10:56

You cant start something unless you dream it first.
I give the guy the benefit of the doubt.

In Canada, nearly every Astar, and Bell product is an "Air Ambulance". Throw in a stretcher and voila, even the smallest operator, with the lowest time pilot is out saving lives.

It all depends what this guys dreams are.
Is he looking to offer something simple, or is he going after a major player type operation with bases all over?

If he wrote a post explaining all his plans, should he have them, it could be pages long, and from what I have seen here, thats an impossible task to grab any one of your attentions for longer than 2 or 3 paragraphs. That's hardly enough time to explain anything. And really, unless you have the cash and dream he has, what business is it of yours to know his plan in detail?

I look at all the aviation clueless people running management positions at Airbus, and they seem quite successful. They put people in the positions with the skills they require...I have this feeling that this guy just wants to offer a service that he sees is lacking, and this is his starting point. How he gets to the end is the journey that will play out.

Thomas coupling 10th May 2018 12:33

Grayhorizon: I've got a football, I'm thinking of setting up a premier division football club, any takers?
The clue is in the delivery......
If one is serious about starting an air ambulance service in the UK, one does not begin with PPrune, one would suggest :rolleyes:

PS: This is the UK, a sub district of EASAland..sticking a plank of wood in an Astar and wazzing around the country is NOT something we would permit, for obvious reasons. One being that we are so far up our Backsides with rules and regs and litigation, it simply isn't going to happen.

GrayHorizonsHeli 10th May 2018 13:02

Have fun with your football team aspirations.
if im interested or can offer some services i will.
but for now...i dont care to be interested in your venture

ARobur 10th May 2018 16:14

Yeh it's ARobur as in Auguste Robur from that Jules Verne novel actually. If you didn't know that.
I am a clinician and I'm trying to find out more information about it because I don't know any pilots. I would have used Linkedin but they don't let you message people you're not connected with without a pro account anymore.

Thomas coupling 10th May 2018 20:15

OK, joking aside - why would anyone who is serious about promoting their profession - turn to a rumour gossip speculative forum?
Surely to goodness you would DYOR and speak to someone who is already in that position of running an air ambulance, no?
You would visit and take notes, hold meetings, speak to SME's, speak to sponsors.
In short, you'd need £5-6 million to set up a day VFR operation and require £2-3 million in donations annually to sustain it. PLUS a handful of experts in: aviation, business, insurance and law to make sure you don't come a cropper.
The good news is that this sliver of the helicopter industry attracts and commands wholehearted support from the public with their blind faith in humanity.
Value for money - it is a failed model, both practically and financially. But it tugs at the heart strings.
Good luck in your wild endeavours young sir - youre going to need it!

ARobur 10th May 2018 20:18

Jesus this guy's still commenting.

Aesir 10th May 2018 21:19

Originally Posted by oleary (Post 10143427)
What "obvious reasons"?

I know a lot of pilots, myself included, who have saved a lot of of lives with a stretcher kit in a JetRanger or Astar.

In areas that cannot afford a full EMS system this is the next best alternative.

Or we could just let'm die, I suppose. 🙄

EASA and itīs minions would most certainly rather let people die than be saved in a B206 or AS350... Itīs mind boggling I know but thatīs bureaucracy at it finest here in EU world.

Geoffersincornwall 11th May 2018 06:35

May I suggest the following as required reading.

Geoffersincornwall 11th May 2018 06:51

Please note that £1 from each sale will be donated to the Cornwall Air Ambulance Trust to help with the acquisition of a new AW169.

For those new to the subject, the Cornwall Air Ambulance was the first HEMS operation in the UK and was arguably the foundation stone of the nation's network of charity-based Air Ambulances.


Thomas coupling 11th May 2018 08:55

Many charities are now coming into the firing line:

The RNLI has more than £250m invested and assets worth another £150m. Ray Kipling, the charity's deputy director, said: "It will cost us, we estimate, £80m to run the lifeboat service next year. "We can't stop the boats going out if we don't have enough money." Mr Kipling said 20 years ago "we were down to virtually no reserves and we were making plans to close lifeboat stations. That is not a situation we can contemplate now". But charity finances suffer from a chronic lack of transparency, says Guy Stafford, co-author of a report on charities for the conservative Bow Group, which seeks to influence Conservative Party thinking. He said: "A company has a clearly defined objective which is to raise money or make profits. "The problem is that it is almost impossible to know what charities do with the money that is donated to them."


homonculus 11th May 2018 12:03


Afraid TC is spot on. Indeed I think he has underestimated some costs. You are mandated to using a twin. No exceptions. The fit out will cost ten times your estimate. But even if you have the money, you still need the support of the hospitals and ambulance service. Unless you can integrate into the health system with their full support, your involvement will put patients at risk. So I would go and talk to NHS Ayrshire & Arran. And come back in a few years and let us know your progress


PPRuNeUser0129 11th May 2018 12:30

I think the most appropriate solution for your proposal would be a huge, battery-powered, multirotor gyrodene called the Albatross.

ARobur 11th May 2018 13:34

^ This guy gets it

ARobur 11th May 2018 13:35

Thanks Geoffers I'll give it a read.

[email protected] 11th May 2018 14:41

Originally Posted by ARobur (Post 10143413)
Jesus this guy's still commenting.

And you're still not listening - there is some very good advice here................

Hughes500 11th May 2018 18:10

You could probably start up an air ambulance pretty cheaply really. The current ones are going down taking taking the hospital to the patient a la Afgan. I know it is rough in some parts of the UK but you dont step on an IED
How about
Buy a Bo 105 cost £ 350k Running cost about £ 600 an hour
Insurance and annual inspection £ 40k
AOC charges £ 11k
2 pilots say £ 50 k each a year
2 paramedics say £ 30 k each
Probably get a load of help running the AOC by running off someone else's !
Obviously a few other things but a very very basic service, which would be better than nothing !

No I have never run a HEMS machine but I do know an awful lot about running machines and AOC's and all the costs that go with it

ARobur 11th May 2018 18:21

This is true, unless IED stands for inclement excremental dogshit lol
Yeh I was thinking it would probably be pretty simple to start with. On site ECMO and thoracentesis have been trialled, and Spain and Italy are preparing patients for organ harvesting in the ambulance but it wouldn't have to be anything like that to begin with.

ARobur 11th May 2018 18:22

Oh by the way what does AOC stand for?

nigelh 11th May 2018 18:39

Thatís actually very funny 😂 !!!!!
I suggest a Robinson ( without a jet stream ) . Most of your patients will miraculously recover when they see what they will be transported in !!!!! You can see it now ....broken leg , foot pointing backwards ...sees Robber in his Robbie and ď oh donít worry ... I donít need a lift . I think itís only a sprain 🙈!!!). Job done !

Geoffersincornwall 11th May 2018 19:37

ARobur - check your Private Messages


homonculus 11th May 2018 20:49


Please do tell what sort of clinician you are. ECMO, thoracocentesis (spell it correctly please) organ harvesting...... but these are only added later on :mad:

Do you have any medical knowledge? You certainly dont have any aviation knowledge. I am happy to explain why this is a non starter in a PM if you are serious, but your posts suggest you are just a wind up

PPRuNeUser0129 11th May 2018 21:12

I'm slightly worried I'm going to 'get it' whatever that means .... perhaps we should all delete our accounts and disappear !

ARobur 11th May 2018 21:38

So I probably won't check up on this thread too much anymore since there hasn't really been too much to glean from it. Thanks to the ones who offered advice, encouragement and some useful avenues to explore.
If any of you do know anyone who'd be keen pleeeeease tell them to get in touch because I'd love to hear from them.

nigelh 11th May 2018 23:33

I hear Noddy and Big Ears have joined the new HEMS operation and have chartered Budgie the Helicoper!!

[email protected] 12th May 2018 03:43

Well done Homonculus:ok: I think you called his bluff:ok:

Perhaps if he comes back he will rename himself ATosseur........

All times are GMT. The time now is 01:44.

Copyright © 2021 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.