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Originally Posted by dikastes
(Post 9960684)
It is class G airspace. The alternative is controlled airspace. Would you like to pay for a deconfliction service?
I used to fly in the USA and if I remember correctly you could easily get a 'flight following' service giving deconfliction (can any US pilots confirm?) Was amazed to find that in the much more cramped UK airspace, LARS is seen as a luxury. It's like the English feel awfully embarrassed to have to bother those busy chaps at Farnborough. |
Originally Posted by wealthysoup
(Post 9960682)
In a simple form: How flightradar generally works for GA aircraft is it requires several ground stations to receive the transponder signal from an aircraft. It then calculates based on the known locations of the ground stations and the differences in the time received between the transponder signal at each of these locations. Over time it can estimate the altitude, speed and direction of the aircraft. For a really basic example of this; turn off your GPS, wifi and bluetooth on your phone and open google maps and look at the margin of error circle around your position.
A lot of the accuracy of this system depends how accurately a user records the positon of their flightradar receiver (typically done manually) and how many different receivers receive each transponder transmission. the GPS. True is that data is not accurate like WAAS assisted aviation GPS (better than 7,5 m x,y,z error) but it is within 50 m of real x,y,z in relation to WGS84 so that z may be in question to real ground but not in relative loss of high. FR "radar site" is getting time and positon from GPS running full time like this: DEVICE INFO: MAC ADDRESS: S/W VERSION: FR24-3.8,101,66 F/W VERSION: 21 ROOT DEVICE: /dev/mmcblk0p2 RADAR CODE: F-AAAA1 UPTIME: 0 days 13:50:11 GPS INFO: POSITION: XX, YY, 10.7m [AMSL] TEMPERATURE: 38.09'C GPS EXTENDED STATUS: Latitude: XX Longitude: YY Altitude: 10m Decoding status: doing fixes Antenna present: YES Antenna port shorted: NO Satellites used: 8 Signal levels: 02=51.0 06=50.0 0C=51.0 0E=48.0 18=43.0 19=55.0 1D=49.0 1F=35.0 20=50.0 STORAGE: ROOT PARTITION USAGE: 103M/622M (18%) USER PARTITION USAGE: 1.6M/120M (2%) STATUS: RECEIVER SOFTWARE: ON RAW FEED [30334]: UP, NUM CONNECTED: 0 BS FEED [30003]: UP, NUM CONNECTED: 0 FR24 CONNECTION STATUS: ADS-B: connected, 4 AC tracked ModeS: connected, 6 AC tracked |
Originally Posted by horizon flyer
(Post 9960687)
I believe with a SkyEcho (ADS-B IN/OUT) device £600 a tablet and SkyDemon you have a TCS device for as little as £1000 with all the benefits of skydemon. Then as long as everyone runs mode S we would all see each other and reduce these sad events happening. This is UK CAA Approved only. Even gliders could run this, has an internal batteries that runs for 6 hour. SkyEcho ? uAvionix
It would appear from the tracks they where both on the same track and the 152 descended onto the helicopter so in each others blind spot very sad day. |
sad indeed... my condolences to Paco and others who knew the driver(s)... :( :(
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Originally Posted by dikastes
(Post 9960706)
Should the CAA legislate that all aircraft in class G airspace carry such equipment?
Smarter, faster, safer and cheaper than what has come before. There is hope that the fundamental problem of moving in three dimensions without being able to see 360 degrees will be solved for GA. Mjb |
A sad day for the industry. Heartfelt condolences to the families that have lost loved ones.
The rotary fraternity have lost one of the nicest and most professional pilots I’ve ever encountered. Many good chats and happy memories. Have a long history with HS at WAP and can only imagine what those guys are going through. |
Originally Posted by 9Aplus
(Post 9960704)
Yes it is called MULTILATERATION and works in time-domain just like
the GPS. True is that data is not accurate like WAAS assisted aviation GPS (better than 7,5 m x,y,z error) but it is within 50 m of real x,y,z in relation to WGS84 so that z may be in question to real ground but not in relative loss of high. FR "radar site" is getting time and positon from GPS running full time like this: Where does the accuracy of 50m for x,y,z come from? I've never heard of a specific accuracy for FR24 but would be interested to know if its implentation of MLAT really is that accurate. I'm afraid that the "radar site" getting time and position from a GPS attached to the receiver is outdated by several years. Whilst a GPS can be used, flightradar allows users to enter X,Y and Z of their receiver (or more specifically their antenna) without ever having to connect to a GPS. If the GPS was (still) a requirement then the data would likely be a fair bit more reliable. Edit: Just googled - Here is the official accuracy statement for MLAT from the flightradar blog: "MLAT position calculations have a general accuracy of 10-100 meters and 1000 meters in the worst cases." |
Originally Posted by PerPurumTonantes
(Post 9960685)
A gadget is a self opening bin or a touch sensitive light. TCAS is the ABS on your car or the system that stops trains passing red signals (TPWS if you're interested :8).
When our phones have the power of supercomputers there is no technical reason why EVERY aircraft, including UAVs, can't broadcast its position. That only leaves geese, but even A320s have problems with them. I've found the Mk1 Eyeball system very reliable for GA VFR that requires zero investment and is by default carried on board every flying machine. |
Some posters have referred to the extra distraction of reprogramming GPS in flight and selecting new VHF freqs. The latter is compounded by having to click through more digits on 8.33 radios.
In his article 'Visual Navigator', written by Neil Williams 40 years ago, there is the following, which I think still applies today: Nobody has immunity from collision risk. The golden rule for visual flying is nine seconds with one's head out of the cockpit for every one second in. I often wonder whether there is too much unnecessary VHF traffic in Class G airspace - another distraction. Not to mention that some pilots relax their lookout when they're talking to somebody on the ground on the basis that 'ATC are looking after me'. It might be an interesting experiment to have a 'radio silence' day in which all pilots in Class G operate with comms switched off - that would sharpen lookout! |
The simple fact is, if both had Mode C and even one had TCAS, the accident would have been avoided if the RA was followed.
Mode C was compulsory in the USA more than 25 years ago, it is mandatory in Belgium airspace. It's should be mandatory in UK. For those dinosaurs anti-TCAS, turn yours off if you have one, but keep your Mode C on. Then if you're coming up behind me fast I do not die if your lookout skills are lacking. I don't want to die due to someone's poor lookout so I will keep my TCAS on. (there are enough studies to show that lookout for collision avoidance is a flawed policy) But remember if that jet at 250 kts coming up behind you doesn't see you and is also anti TCAS (and has it switched off to improve his lookout !!) .. you may wish you had TCAS in your final moments. Yesterday the weather was good, what if the visibility is 1000m and two aircraft are on a collision course at high speed. Mr lookout may not have a chance to avoid. What if IMC? It's time to do something to stop any more unnecessary deaths. Mode C allows ATC to provide a safer "traffic service" and allows RA's to work. |
Noblues .
"I've found the Mk1 Eyeball system very reliable for GA VFR that requires zero investment and is by default carried on board every flying" machine. Sounds like you are saying this could not have happened to you . Incredible stupidity to rule out a piece of tech that I truly believe would have saved them . |
I see the Daily Mail is quoting from posts on this thread: be aware!
One pilot said it was easy to be distracted by the estate. Writing on an internet flying forum, the 36-year-old added: 'I've been guilty of paying too much attention to pointing passengers to the Rothschild palace and not enough to a lookout.' None of the victims had been named last night, but the dead helicopter pilot's friend and former colleague Captain Phil Croucher said: 'He was probably the most respected instructor in the country. 'He achieved a very high position in the Army. If you wanted a training instructor there's no one more highly qualified. 'Almost everybody in the country has been instructed by him – most instructors have been trained by him. Everybody in the industry looked up to him.' He was said to have been training a foreign flying student on a beginners' course when the helicopter crashed. Captain Croucher, 65, of Ayrshire, said the pilot, who worked for Helicopter Services flying school near Aylesbury, was in his sixties and had a partner and family, He added: 'I was shocked and surprised to hear what had happened. He was a real gentleman. Of course it is an industry where this does happen. We don't stop, we just get on and do the job, he wouldn't have wanted me to stop flying.' Flight data shows a two-seater helicopter was flying at 1,025ft in the area at the time, but suddenly went off radar shortly after 12 noon. It had only been in the air for 15 minutes. |
We are in danger of loosing the plot here, TCAS is far too expensive & heavy for fitment to small GA types so is a non starter, it should also be rmebered that Two TCAS equipped airlines collided over Switzerland a few years back.
ADS-B probably is the best answer, the UK CAA has been moving in that direction ( albeit hindered by EASA ) and awairness equipment like FLARM is avalable and widely used by gliders and the more forward thinking in powered Aircraft. Even if the take up of such equipment was 100% there would still be a risk. The last thing we have to deal with is the civil liberties types who object to broadcast their position on privacy grounds............ I wonder what the civil liberties issues of being six foot under the ground are ? |
I'm fully aware of what TCAS is PerPurumTonantes, its superb in a commercial environment within IFR. Its saved my bacon a few times flying down through say certain parts of Africa and a few other less well controlled parts of the planet in my day job - But my view is it has no place in GA. I've found the Mk1 Eyeball system very reliable for GA VFR that requires zero investment and is by default carried on board every flying machine. |
A and C
Agree with TCAS - that can be a personal choice. No one is advocating TCAS for all, but Mode C for all is inexpensive and lightweight. And, yes of course there can be a collision if the RA is not followed. You could say the same about a stick shaker - people have pulled instead of pushed ! |
Hi Guys,
In this thread I have seen two or three comments to the effect that in the turn visibility from the cockpit of a high wing aircraft is poorer than from a low wing aircraft. If these comments are intended to compare visibility from an aircraft such as a C152/172 to that from a Pa28, or similar, then I would strongly disagree. In my view there is no difference. When you do a turn in a Pa28 the upper edge of the into-turn window frame comes down and the roof then obscures your into-turn visibility every bit as completely as the wing of a C152/172. Hence, in both aircraft types, before turning it is vital to turn your head and shoulders round and take a really good look, using the good old Mk 1 eyeball, to make sure that there is no other traffic in the way of your intended turn. (This is one reason why I so liked the Sky Arrow; tandem seating, blister canopy, and wings that were above and behind the pilot). Regards, BP. |
Originally Posted by PerPurumTonantes
(Post 9960505)
Agreed. Pilot workload especially in small GA is ludicrous. Why are are we still fiddling with knobs and frequencies? Why not a touchscreen with the nearest 6 ATCs marked on it in plain English?
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Originally Posted by A and C
(Post 9960953)
it should also be rmebered that Two TCAS equipped airlines collided over Switzerland a few years back.
The unfortunate controller was later tracked down and stabbed to death by a parent of one of the Russian children on board. Stories don't get much more tragic than that. If both pilots had followed their TCAS the accident would have been avoided. |
It was not standard to have to follow TCAS in any case like it is today at that time. So don't blame the pilot.
ATC was understaffed, had phone-line troubles and gave conflicting instructions. So I'm not blaming that poor ATC guy neither. The ATC organization above did a poor job that day. |
Unlike one of the above contributors - I cannot imagine what it must be like at HS.
Condolences thread required. Such a nice guy, who knew no limits when helping someone. There is now a huge void in the Helicopter world. |
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