Originally Posted by Hot and Hi
(Post 9961887)
Wealthysoup: Are you suggesting that the fix wing aircraft suddenly entered into an extreme dive, consistent with (for example) pilot incapacitation and/or loss of control plus total loss of electric power, consuming all of the 2,500' of carefully maintained vertical separation?
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No-one is taking the FR24 data as 'gospel' but it does look fairly stable and give an outline indication of possible reasons. For instance the altitudes are relatively stable on both aircraft, the fixed wing appearing to take a reasonably rapid descent within the last 20-30secs. This we know because it was initially at 3000+ft and the helicopter always had been around the 1000'ft.
Best to wait and see what the accident report says and if the FR24 data is all wrong, then it's all wrong, and it shouldn't be used to 'second guess' reasons for such a tragic accident. |
FR24 has shown my aircraft travelling anywhere between 0 and 300 kts in a steady cruise.
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So what? All on FR24 are just smokes and mirrors :D
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Originally Posted by ATCO Fred
(Post 9961457)
Nope - The fixed wing was south/West of the Heli. . . . then established same course slightly behind and above. Providence . . . .
Fred |
Did a number of end of course checks for Mike's FI students way back. Was always impressed by the standards that he had set. A very sad loss.
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Disagree
Originally Posted by zimbizee
(Post 9961305)
RIP Mike, great guy who i flew with many times over the years.
"TCAS should be made compulsory for all GA" Stupid statement!!! Eyes should be outside the cockpit, we don't need more gadgets pulling us inside more than they are already. Unfortunately just a terrible accident, not the first and won't be the last |
There have been some very ill-informed statements about the US and FAA, for a start, Class G airspace in US is very rare, transponders are not a universal requirement for VFR. Without hijacking the thread, more info here for anyone interested in what's happening in the USA in 2020: https://www.aopa.org/go-fly/aircraft...b-out-required |
Belt & Braces
Originally Posted by [email protected]
(Post 9961678)
A little yellow blob on a screen with a relative height readout and an audio warning could easily have saved four lives.
Having been through the military fighter pilot training thing early in life, the whole 'lookout' is good training but ultimately hampered by human limitations. |
Do the, so called, hi-viz markings on rotorblades significantly improve 'conspicuity'?
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Originally Posted by N13FB
(Post 9961809)
In times gone by when I was "Maverick and Invincible" I would have considered TCAS to be an unnecessary gadget, together with Mode S transponders etc. Having recently been flying a relatively new Enstrom (Not my first choice of type) in Texas which is fitted out with every Garmin toy one could imagine, I have learnt that TCAS DOES work. You don't need to look at it, it gives a verbal warning i.e "traffic one mile 12.00".
It is my strong belief that transponders and TCAS should be a legal requirement on ALL aircraft. That includes hang gliders, gliders, paramotors, microlights, spam cans and helicopters. With the one exception of Paramotors, I have owned and flown all those listed. I do not subscribe to the argument that cost is prohibitive. Frankly, if you can't afford it, take up golf. |
important not to jump to any conclusions re FR24 data which can be erratic as I have witnessed when checking back on my own aircraft.
What I would say looking back on the historical readings is that I have much more confidence in the G-JAMM data than the G-WACG data. G-JAMM's sortie earlier in the day to what likes Silverstone and Wing has painted well and reliably as did the fateful flight taking a similar route although slightly to the east of Silverstone this time. The G-WACG data is much less reliable which is perhaps not surprising considering the relative ages of the two craft involved and the spec of the fitted avionics and there is little low level data on any of G-WACG's recent flights. |
@aa777888
Risk is everywhere but in a regulated environment it also implies risk management. Risk management implies some degree of control in influencing the outcome. Having to rely on someone else's ability to see you, in this instance seemingly requiring xray vision, seems futile especially since uncivilized regions like ours have other techniques, as per @hot&hi's post, to help mitigate situations where an eyeball can fail. Aviate, navigate & COMMUNICATE. Can't help but think that see and avoid alone should have retired along with the tigermoth. |
Fully agree on possible erratic data,
but on the other hand G-WACG available data on FR24 are in accordance to this statement: http://www.pprune.org/rotorheads/602...ml#post9961457
Originally Posted by ATCO Fred
(Post 9961457)
Nope - The fixed wing was south/West of the Heli. . . . then established same course slightly behind and above. Providence . . . .
Fred https://www.dropbox.com/s/t1lesr05ls..._G2_2.jpg?dl=0 So anyone can draw own educated guess (not necessary) even on mentioned "Providence" |
Originally Posted by Bell_ringer
(Post 9962479)
@aa777888
Risk is everywhere but in a regulated environment it also implies risk management. Risk management implies some degree of control in influencing the outcome. Having to rely on someone else's ability to see you, in this instance seemingly requiring xray vision, seems futile especially since uncivilized regions like ours have other techniques, as per @hot&hi's post, to help mitigate situations where an eyeball can fail. Aviate, navigate & COMMUNICATE. Can't help but think that see and avoid alone should have retired along with the tigermoth. when they get it to be that good (AeroGlass is shipping, but it's nowhere near like what you see in that Hollywood production of a Youtube video). However, I don't agree with requiring people to spend more than the rest of their aircraft is worth, sometimes much more, on avionics mandates. A tablet and a crappity ass USB radio dongle can do better than the vast majority of the GA avionics already installed for achieving situational awareness. If you can make meeting the mandate that inexpensive, then I'd be all for it. Anyhow, you can have all the technology in the world, and until we take the pilot out of the loop aircraft will still hit each other in mid-air. |
Thanks A-squared 7&8-cubed.
Won't disagree with that. |
Ok here's another angle on this debate.
Emergency avoiding action is not in the syllabus for PPL/CPL (although 45 degree bank turns are). Maybe it should be? |
Thing is, my life is priceless to me :cool:. Certainly worth more than a few thousand for TCAS (or FLARM, ADS-B in etc). No argument from me when you are spending your own money, but when there is a huge push to spend somebody else's money on somebody else's aeroplane ---- and make it mandatory, that's when proper analysis and process should kick in --- but often doesn't. Far more than motoring "safety", aviation "safety" attracts lurid headlines, and all sorts of self-appointed experts ( eX is the unknown quantity, "spurt" is a drip under pressure) demanding "they do something", and all too often, politicians respond. This is a huge problem in Australia, where GA has been saddled with a "WORLD'S BEST/First" (we just love being self proclaimed world first/best** something ) ADS-B mandate, far broader than the FAA or Eurocontrol ADS-B mandate --- the millions spent ( or, aircraft grounded because owners can't afford it) will not reduce risk on iota, because the traffic levels are so low, in most of the areas GA operates, that the assessed risk is not only below the ICAO Separation Assurance Standard, but is assessed as "vanishingly small", the statistical equivalent of zero, nil,zilch, naught, but it doesn't silence the "but what if ---" brigade, who are quite happy to spend every last dollar of somebody else's money. ** Delete as applicable Tootle pip!! |
Emergency avoiding action is not in the syllabus for PPL/CPL (although 45 degree bank turns are). Maybe it should be? LOOKOUT is invariably taught during S&L in a lateral environment from wingtip to wingtip, possibly because relative speed is perceived as the major contributer to the threat. Lokout below in a descent, is seldom taught correctly; lowering the nose is of little use, but if you weave the aircraft it gives you the opportunity to look down into the area where you are descending. It is much more diffiucult to see an aircraft silouetted against terrain, especially if it is small and has a low cross sectional profile and the relative speed is low. |
Lokout below in a descent, is seldom taught correctly |
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