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Midair Collision Near Waddesdon

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Midair Collision Near Waddesdon

Old 18th Nov 2017, 13:29
  #141 (permalink)  
gim
 
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Captain Mike Green RIP

My flying instructor Mike Green , what a lovely person. Sad day
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Old 18th Nov 2017, 13:31
  #142 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
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My thoughts are with Mike's family and all at HS. You taught me well and examined me with flare and fairness. You didn't teach me how to fly a helicopter, you taught me how to fly.

RIP Mike. A true great.
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Old 18th Nov 2017, 13:35
  #143 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by PerPurumTonantes View Post
I used to fly in the USA and if I remember correctly you could easily get a 'flight following' service giving deconfliction (can any US pilots confirm?) Was amazed to find that in the much more cramped UK airspace, LARS is seen as a luxury.

It's like the English feel awfully embarrassed to have to bother those busy chaps at Farnborough.
Originally Posted by RMK View Post
I hold both EASA & FAA licenses and fly in both countries. You cannot compare the US Aviation Infrastructure to that of the UK. The US has far greater govt support and funding.
To answer @PerPurumTonantes question: yes, you can easily get VFR flight following (aka VFR Advisories, aka Radar Traffic Information Service) on any flight where you can be tracked via transponder and controller workload permitting (good article here). You get it by default when in Class B and C airspace. It can be difficult to get if you are flying at typical helicopter altitudes where only enroute radar coverage is available, i.e. if they can't track you reliably they can't offer you service. I generally only use it when I intend to enter Class B or C, and, when exiting same, will hang onto it for a while until I know that I'm going into an area where it isn't going to work out.

I recently installed Mode S in/out. I've never had traffic information available to me before and it sure is nice. After a few days of "playing with the new toy" it is now in my background scan. The voice will warn me of anything close. I leave the traffic display up on the panel GPS in case the tablet goes wonky, and have the tablet set to overlay traffic on the map display, so I get good situational awareness whenever I check the map.

You can still be "surprised" when in a TAS only area/altitude. It's actually kind of sobering when the technology picks up the traffic before you do. An object lesson, with multiple messages: a) you can always do a better job of scanning and b) the technology, used correctly, does add safety margin.
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Old 18th Nov 2017, 13:40
  #144 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
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RIP Mike, great guy who i flew with many times over the years.

"TCAS should be made compulsory for all GA" Stupid statement!!! Eyes should be outside the cockpit, we don't need more gadgets pulling us inside more than they are already. Unfortunately just a terrible accident, not the first and won't be the last
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Old 18th Nov 2017, 13:47
  #145 (permalink)  
 
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Mick I so remember a long time ago flying a Gazelle night sortie with you on BRW - I can remember your wise words to myself, a young student pilot at debrief, 'that was a good solid green sortie Steve but never forget night flying is a large part of being a military pilot, treat it with respect but it's just night flying, the same as day flying - only dark'.

Rest in Peace pal.
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Old 18th Nov 2017, 14:07
  #146 (permalink)  
 
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Folks,
Be very careful what you wish for, you might just get it.

Who was the great economist who said:"It is just as well we don't get all the government we pay for".

There have been some very ill-informed statements about the US and FAA, for a start, Class G airspace in US is very rare, transponders are not a universal requirement for VFR.

There have been some very uniformed statements about the use of various collision avoidance devices, but the ALL have one thing in common, they are not accurate enough in such as a circuit environment, or approach/departure areas to their airfields. And they are "head down" when you should be "head up".

I speak from considerable experience of such devices, pilots who are "gadget freaks" are also the one who already do not look out the window nearly enough, and put undeserved faith in their latest toy --- usually extolling the virtues straight from the manufacturer's sales blurbs, with no idea of the real limitation ---- and this is not a shot at PPLs, one of the worst offenders I know is a high time corporate pilot.

The first step is to properly analyze the real risk --- not the perceived risk.

The next step is, once the magnitude of the risk is established ( the ICAO separation assurance standard is a good benchmark), and there will ALWAYS be some risk, the next step is: What to do about it.

A good start is always to amp up the national on-going pilot education efforts. How to conduct a proper search, including making certain your eyes are not on a fixed focus, would be a start, it can't be emphasised too often.

When it comes to "mandating" equipment, sentiment ( I was going to call it loudly expressed ignorance) can cost a lot of money, the preferred process (about which the FAA is quite rigorous) is a cost/benefit analysis. using real costs, not fantasy figures dreamed up by proponents ( more properly called "proponent bias"). And I do mean cost/benefit, not cost/effectiveness --- which is a different thing. Most of you on this thread have been making claims about perceptions of cost/effectiveness --- not benefit.

Unless the cost (initial and ongoing) is less than the benefit ( using national standard cost for lives and damage) the idea fails. Whether you like it or not, life is not "priceless", a principle accepted throughout public planning processes, "the sky is NOT the limit" to save a life. This is the national statistical cost of life, not trying to put a value on the life of one individual.

I can say, with great confidence, that mandating ACAS/ ADS-B in Class G airspace in UK will not produce a positive benefit to cost ratio, based on work I have done over the years, indeed, it will not even go close.

At time like the aftermath of this recent occurrence, there is too great a tendency for kneejerk demands that "they do something".

Tootle Pip!!
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Old 18th Nov 2017, 14:08
  #147 (permalink)  
 
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I first flew with Mike in 2000, when he was at Thruxton. Over the next 6 years he took me from a raw PPL(H) to CPL(H) then FI(H), training at Helicopter Services.

I was always in awe of the man's sheer flying ability. Once, after a particularly shit sortie on my FI(H) course, I tentatively asked Mike "Can I ask a personal question?".

"Yes, David" - he never called me Dave. I asked how long he'd been doing this, as we hover taxied back in towards the Helicopter Services pads at Booker.

"About 40 years". It was the "about" which I remember, as well as the picture on the Sun's online page of him in his flying attire with a big smile.

What a sad, sad, day.
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Old 18th Nov 2017, 14:34
  #148 (permalink)  
 
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I also had the pleasure of Mike's company for FI course and renewals over the years.
Great guy.

Tcas 1 does not give resolution advice, that's Tcas 2 that must be followed.

A good lookout is always the number 1 but a form of tcas will inevitably give better SA.
For those people insisting that it will force people's heads inside the cockpit, well yes there is that argument and in some cases this will happen but then so does GPS. I fly aircraft with and without Tcas and I feel far more comfortable in a tcas aircraft.

RIP Mike.
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Old 18th Nov 2017, 14:44
  #149 (permalink)  
 
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An audio beep that varies in tone and frequency and ideally uses surround sound technology to "position" the beep using suitable headphones could be the answer.
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Old 18th Nov 2017, 15:03
  #150 (permalink)  
 
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An audio beep that varies in tone and frequency and ideally uses surround sound technology to "position" the beep using suitable headphones could be the answer.
Except for those who don't hear in stereo anymore......(or never have!)
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Old 18th Nov 2017, 15:08
  #151 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Duchess_Driver View Post
Except for those who don't hear in stereo anymore......(or never have!)
They'd still hear the beep and be warned that something was close, even if they had no directional information.
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Old 18th Nov 2017, 15:11
  #152 (permalink)  
 
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In this modern world where we can get self driving vehicles that manage to miss most things, there has to be a cost effective solution for this.

We keep seeing the same type of accidents and somehow expect a different result each time.
Perhaps it's time to look at things slightly differently and not keep doing the same things since that seems to have limited results?
Aviation, particularly GA, seems quite backwards looking in a time when every other industry seems to be looking ahead.
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Old 18th Nov 2017, 15:15
  #153 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Bell_ringer View Post
In this modern world where we can get self driving vehicles that manage to miss most things, there has to be a cost effective solution for this.

We keep seeing the same type of accidents and somehow expect a different result each time.
Perhaps it's time to look at things slightly differently and not keep doing the same things since that seems to have limited results?
Aviation, particularly GA, seems quite backwards looking in a time when every other industry seems to be looking ahead.
Everything has to be approved which can make it prohibitively expensive for GA.

Something that is battery powered and does not connect to the aircraft's systems could be a possibility though.
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Old 18th Nov 2017, 15:17
  #154 (permalink)  
 
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It’s not going to be long before you can don a pair of AR glasses and be able to see other traffic, even through the structure of the aeroplane and have threats made conspicuous.

Until then, anything that warns you of the “fly on the windscreen” that’s shortly to bloom into something frightening is something worth having.
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Old 18th Nov 2017, 15:39
  #155 (permalink)  
 
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And the accident aircraft this thread is about didn't have any TCAS type devices fitted ? An accident report would be handy.
Quite correct.

Nor are they likely to have CVR or FDR. Which will make the accident that took 4 precious lives far more difficult to investigate than it needs to be. We may never find complete answers?

Bear in mind also that even a microlight has the capacity to bring down an aircraft carrying a number of people. So where do we stop with the march of 'technology'? Should all a/c be required to carry strobes, transponders, tcas, cvr, fdr? Where do we draw the line? How much kit can these little aircraft realistically carry? What are the electrical requirements? How often should this equipment be tested? Precisely when should a 'simple' (to operate) type become a type that requires all of this equipment?

Will we end light aircraft flying for the masses. (Who for a century have flown perfectly safely, year in and year out!)
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Old 18th Nov 2017, 16:23
  #156 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Pittsextra View Post
The devil will be in the detail but...

Two aircraft out of the same airfield have a midair in a known busy piece of sky and we think having an electronic device that requires even more head inside the cockpit is going to help ? I wonder, was this a two ship ? It seems a very odd chance event otherwise.
Nope - The fixed wing was south/West of the Heli. . . . then established same course slightly behind and above. Providence . . . .

Fred
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Old 18th Nov 2017, 16:23
  #157 (permalink)  

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Originally Posted by Flying Binghi View Post
...and TCAS is generally found in two pilot aircraft. .
Notwithstanding that TCAS is also fitted to most modern SPIFR equipped helicopters.

Unfortunately, from what has been found already, it appears that the pilots of both aircraft were probably completely unaware of the other's close presence.

From personal experience, small helicopters such as the Gimbal Cabrio offer a very small profile and are very difficult to see, especially from behind.
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Old 18th Nov 2017, 16:27
  #158 (permalink)  
 
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How so very sad.
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Old 18th Nov 2017, 16:34
  #159 (permalink)  
 
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Very very sad news.

Mike taught me for my CPL back in 1999 at Thruxton.

Condolences to all the families and HS.
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Old 18th Nov 2017, 16:35
  #160 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2000
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MK1 eyeball is so much better and even if you have, like in the aircraft I fly, TCAS 2 fitted when flying VFR you still should spend most of your time heads outside scanning for other traffic.

What I notice is some pilots overly relying, trusting the TCAS and not scanning, to the extend that when ATC calls them about other aircraft saying "we have him on TCAS"

Even with the top of the line TCAS equipment we have fitted the amount of times I've seen one contact suddenly splitting into two, disappearing altogether, not in the same postion when you spotted the other aircraft or when flying near a small GA airfield with aircraft without transponder there will be nothing on TCAS!

Also if you get an RA you (partly) rely on the other pilot flying correctly what their TCAS is telling them, something we train but isn't a given.

IMHO TCAS has its place but not in GA aircraft, because of the reasons listed above together with cost factor.
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