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-   -   SAR S-92 Missing Ireland (https://www.pprune.org/rotorheads/592162-sar-s-92-missing-ireland.html)

minimaman 15th Mar 2017 23:29

blackrock island
 
"There had been no satellite alerts, no signals, no Mayday. The last communication from Rescue 116, at 12.45am, was brief and to the point. It was “landing in Blacksod”

However at 12.46am one minute later the last AIS position is 13km away from Backsod lighthouse helipad and 60 metres from blackrock lighthouse .As others have stated blackrock LH is on a large rock in the sea with 300ft elevation while blacksod is at sealevel.Given the last radiocall "landing at blacksod" was made 1 minute before the final position beside blackrock island it would seem highly probable that a landing was attempted at blackrock. Depending on the approach maybe only one lighthouse was visible?Would there be evidence of a contact on blackrock island ?it is such a sad story given these great people risk there lives to save others rip bravest ones.

HeliComparator 16th Mar 2017 00:29

Why do so many people feel empowered to tell other people what they should post on this forum? It is a recurring theme every time there is an accident. People are allowed to post what they think is right and relevant, so (self righteous) people: give others the courtesy to be allowed to post what they want to post. Nobody likes a control freak.

Anyway, all accidents are sad and unfortunate, surely it goes without saying? I didn't know any of the people involved but why would it make a difference if I did?

[email protected] 16th Mar 2017 00:44


Anyway, all accidents are sad and unfortunate, surely it goes without saying? I didn't know any of the people involved but why would it make a difference if I did?
because you might care a bit more...............

Hedski 16th Mar 2017 01:05

Because even if theories are proved correct it is deeply unpleasant for anyone connected to have to hear such opinion until the factual un-opinionated report is released. An AW139 crew who visited the scene seem to think differently, providing an armchair opinion that has now reached as far as Aberdeen!!! People in glass houses in this case.

jimf671 16th Mar 2017 01:08

In conditions of darkness and drizzle with low broken cloud (assuming EINN METAR relates), is a let down over a large area of sea before turning to approach Blacksod from the west not a more likely scenario than landing at Black Rock?

heliporto 16th Mar 2017 01:24

My deepest condolences to the families, absolutely shocked by this
At the Spanish maritime SAR we all feel like we lost a member of our family
God bless for all the lifes you saved, RIP brothers

Safeway 16th Mar 2017 04:50

Was there a mixup between BlackRock and Blacksod lighthouses?
 
One lighthouse is at sea level, the other at around 300 feet are they not? They shot one or two missed approaches in order to get in to refuel. What was their fuel status? ( pressure building with multiple missed approaches?) The weather had a cloud base of 500 feet. Figuring it would have been dark. Were they wearing NVD's? Clearly something has gone wrong and it would seem from this thread many are speculating but without focusing on causal factors and sound theories. There are many things to probably learn from this accident. Hopefully the Flight recorder will quickly be recovered and shed light on what actually happened. An S&R S92 should have auto hover & NVD's I presume. RIP to the crew. Always hard on their families & loved ones. Hopefully CHC will support the families financially for the years ahead.

Scattercat 16th Mar 2017 06:13

My very sincere condolences.

A question if I may from downunder .... does this operation use NVIS? If not, is this well proven technology on the table for the future there? Like all technologies, they have limitations, but I almost never fly at night without them now.

DOUBLE BOGEY 16th Mar 2017 06:23

HC people feel compelled to control posts because they fail to separate the emotion from the technical performance of machine and crews. Like you said, the tragedy is obvious and a given. However the event has happened.

What immediatly matters now, to everyone flying in the front or the back of an S92 is; is it an aircraft problem OR a crew problem.

Given the information already available I suspect the answer on this one might be a little sooner than later. However that is just an opinion. The evidence so far could just be circumstantial.

I knew both pilots. It does not change the desire to know what caused it.

[email protected] 16th Mar 2017 07:29


The sudden nature of the accident would point to either a CFIT or a Mechanical break up. What about fuel? It left heavy and was needing a refuel shortly before the crash, someone could work out the burn rate between the time periods and rule that one out surely? CFIT? What could go wrong for the aircraft to fly itself into the water? Mechanical break up? MGB? TGB?

Just my 2 cents worth
You made your point well but then went into random speculation which helps no-one

212man 16th Mar 2017 07:55


Originally Posted by jimf671 (Post 9707500)
In conditions of darkness and drizzle with low broken cloud (assuming EINN METAR relates), is a let down over a large area of sea before turning to approach Blacksod from the west not a more likely scenario than landing at Black Rock?

y
That was my interpretation - the ais track looks like an ARA. However, it raises more questions than answers!

juice 16th Mar 2017 08:55

Irish Examiner
"Update 7.40am: It has emerged the Air Corps was initially asked to provide top cover for the mission missing helicopter Rescue 116 was sent on.

The Defence Forces confirmed to Newstalk Breakfast they could not provide an aircraft outside of normal hours, due to a loss of experienced personnel.

At 10.06pm on Monday night the Irish Air Corps received a request from the coast guard to provide top cover for a long range medical evacuation off the west coast.

They replied that it was not possible to provide fixed wing aircraft cover outside of normal hours.

They have confirmed to Newstalk Breakfast that this is because of a loss of experienced personnel among both air crew and air traffic control.

The Rescue 116 helicopter was subsequently sent to provide top cover for the mission.

The Defence Forces say at 1.45am they then received an emergency request to conduct a search for the helicopter, which had gone missing.

They initiated a recall plan and were able to provide a Casa aircraft to assist in the search and rescue operation."


http://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/ireland/latest-air-corps-was-initially-asked-to-provide-top-cover-for-rescue-116-mission-781772.html

norunway 16th Mar 2017 09:40

Theories.
 
Could members please keep theories and speculation to a minimum. Family members are awaiting the return of their loved ones, inaccurate reporting of on going circumstances, and inaccurate theories is not making the current situation any easier. As we know press are reading what is being posted, so we kindly ask that it be kept to a minimum at this time.

El Bunto 16th Mar 2017 10:15


At 10.06pm on Monday night the Irish Air Corps received a request from the coast guard to provide top cover for a long range medical evacuation off the west coast. They replied that it was not possible to provide fixed wing aircraft cover outside of normal hours.
To be fair to the Air Corps, though, SAR and top-cover are not funded or 'primary missions' and thus are flown as-available. It doesn't appear that ICG compensates them for any missions flown, and certainly it isn't deducted from CHC's budget, so crews and aircraft aren't dedicated on stand-by.

Before this incident I had assumed that SAR was a tasking but the CASAs are primarily for maritime surveillance, medevac and personnel transport.

The Air Corps even sent the LJ45 once for top-cover, since the aircraft and crew happened to be available at Baldonnel that day.

jeepys 16th Mar 2017 10:33

Very sad indeed.

The other pilot, Mark Duffy, was he also a captain?
The press is all over Capt. Dara but there were three other crew in the helicopter to remember, one of them the other pilot who may have been running the show.
With regards to the few previous threads families may be looking at all reports, websites etc for answers. Not very nice for families of the rest of the crew hearing all about one of the pilots.
I am sure there are people on here who knew the other crew members.

Fullofexcuses01 16th Mar 2017 10:42


Originally Posted by jeepys (Post 9707834)
Very sad indeed.

The other pilot, Mark Duffy, was he also a captain?
The press is all over Capt. Dara but there were three other crew in the helicopter to remember, one of them the other pilot who may have been running the show.
With regards to the few previous threads families may be looking at all reports, websites etc for answers. Not very nice for families of the rest of the crew hearing all about one of the pilots.
I am sure there are people on here who knew the other crew members.

Mark was also a captain.

212man 16th Mar 2017 11:06


The other pilot, Mark Duffy, was he also a captain?
the press are reporting that he was the Chief Pilot.

DOUBLE BOGEY 16th Mar 2017 11:14

Norunway. I agree with Mitchaa. I also understand your point though. However, on this forum you will get professional opinions from Pilots, Rear Crew and Engineers who do this stuff every day. Sometimes we are not as professional in our postings as we maybe should be. Then you get others.

I have to say that over the years the "RIPs" and "Very Sads" are small consolation to those individuals who operate and maintain similar/identical types. We know the risks and the platitudes served on these forums are meaningless to us.

However, for family members and loved ones the clinical, technical descriptions, opinions and "Swags" may, or may not provide some comfort/explanation. That is the power of the internet.

What we, as a professional body of people, should not do, is apportion blame. Even when it may seem that "Pilot" or "Engineer" errors appears or is confirmed as the root cause. We should, and mostly do, look deeper. Why/How can that error be made? and most importantly, "Am I capable of the same error".

We are all stakeholders in these situations. Some are looking for explanations or reasons why an event occurs. Some are simply interested in whether it was "Aircraft" or "Human". Some are looking for news column inches.

Having said all of that, I have found over the last few years that many posters, of the professional type, add great value to understanding the details of such events. There is a lot more good than bad on PPRUNE.

You cannot suppress it. You cannot control it (unless you are a MOD). However, you should take what value you can and disregard the rest.

DB

roundwego 16th Mar 2017 11:23


Very sad indeed.

The other pilot, Mark Duffy, was he also a captain?
The press is all over Capt. Dara but there were three other crew in the helicopter to remember, one of them the other pilot who may have been running the show.
With regards to the few previous threads families may be looking at all reports, websites etc for answers. Not very nice for families of the rest of the crew hearing all about one of the pilots.
I am sure there are people on here who knew the other crew members.
Unfortunately the circumstances regarding her rescue, subsequent death and no doubt, her gender played a big part in the amount of press cover she received. Also, there were plenty of archive photos etc which the press love to use to fill column/inches.

Every member of the crew play an important part in such operations and jeepys is correct to remind us not to, unintentionally, play down the loss of them.

Both pilots may have been captains by rank but the question of who was commander by role for this task has yet to be answered. The press seldom understand the distinction.

cpt mayhem 16th Mar 2017 12:00

Can I ask does the S92 have a TAWS system.


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