It was mentioned on the other thread that the ac underwent a major overhaul recently; after reading here about some of the reasons to have it on a hungarian registration, I wonder what the investigation will find.

Hi Steve. I have met you and your sidekick Nigel at various heli related events over the past few years. I feel your pain and despair. He was a lovely man, the term larger than life was made for him. As for other comments on here I don't feel angry just terrified at the prospect of losing breath discussing them.

Very sad indeed . RIP .
I hear he did a quick stop , came to the hover and there was a Bang ...next thing it was on the ground .

Are you suggesting an engine problem Nigel?

Apparently they can be fitted with a gazelle engine (http://www.pprune.org/rotorheads/230...ml#post1536265), plenty around if you have the contacts (http://www.pprune.org/rotorheads/397...ml#post5361389)

All i know is what i heard . A bang could be just about anything ...whatever it was it left no time to do anything it appears . Tragic .

Man dies after helicopter crash (From York Press)

As the ac has already been removed and the area presumably tidied up, how does this affect the investigation? Out of interest, where was the airframe taken to and had the paperwork already been impounded?

Sid as usual you do get it wrong

AAIB investigators have moved the investigation to a more involved one as one of the occupants (the pilot )has sadly died
The aircraft is STILL at BREIGHTON and the AAIB will be moving it tomorrow from BREIGHTON to farnbrough , on a truck if you want I will get the registration number for you
The paperwork that was in the helicopter has been given to the AAIB and all the log cards /form1 /airframe / engine /airworthiness docs ect books are all being packaged up and sent to the AAIB
At Farnborough to assist them with their investigation
Thanks for your concerns but I think the AAIB have every thing in hand it's not the first time they've done this

Just quoted the article MD. Sorry if I misunderstood when it said, "The wreckage was removed from Breighton airfield, " I could only surmise that it had been removed from the airfield.

As your account of things seems to differ to that of the article, I suggest you help the AAIB as best you can, you may even know the history of the engine.

So, the paperwork is now being bundled to be sent on to the AAIB, ten days after the event, thanks for that.

https://adarvetranslationsblog.files...-messenger.gif

sid

maybe i am a bit thick was your cartoons supposed to mean something?
hopefully it was directed at me ,not the deceased /

also i was intrigued by your mention of the engine is there something one needs to know about the engine ,or do you know something about the engine that every one needs to know ?

SS
 

Sid!
Wait for the report to come out, stop behaving like a spoilt child! A great guy has lost his life and you keep digging for ****! :ugh:

Steve. Don't waste your breath! JJ

I think Sid's point is that, following a military accident (which this clearly isn't), all documents for the aircraft would be immediately impounded so that any evidence would be preserved as it was at the time of the crash.

More difficult to ensure with a private operator and more difficult therefore for the AAIB to guarantee no interference post crash with the documentation.

I am NOT saying this could be the case with this sad accident but I think there is scope in the aviation community to 'lose' dodgy paperwork post accident.

So, I link to a news report, as we all do, that says "The wreckage was removed from Breighton airfield" . When I ask how this removal would affect the investigation, I am told that I am wrong.

Nigleh tells us he heard that "the ac did a quick stop, (with 5 pob!) came to the hover and there was a Bang ...next thing it was on the ground." I ask if he is suggesting that this could be an engine issue and I am told that I am wrong.


The cartoon is MD trying to shoot the messenger, but getting it wrong.

As for the engine reference, I think you'll find that after his description of the incident, I asked nigelh if he was suggesting there is an engine issue here. Knowing that MD has knowledge about Alouettes being fitted with Gazelle engines and that he knows/knew someone selling a load off, as referred to in my links, he might know more than most about the engines fitted to Alouettes.


As for the comment; "Thanks for your concerns but I think the AAIB have every thing in hand it's not the first time they've done this".

I'm sure that it isn't, and more importantly it won't be the last; however things such as the ac's removal from the site, investigation by correspondence, and paperwork bundling up ten days after ... imho ... would suggest that perhaps in future some things might need assessing.

PB;I'm ok with taking your abuse, as long as in the meantime we can find something that may prevent this happening again before that report comes out next year+ ....

Is it really me that you need to vent out at?
Taken from the comments of others here;

nigelh - Quick stops 5 on board
MD600driver - Tail rotor failure
nigelh - Engine problem
Bellringer - Compressor stall
Hughes500 - Cheap Parts
MD600driver - Cheaper maintenance
MD600driver - LPC trainers/licensing problems in UK
toptobottom - Recent big overhaul (other thread)



At the moment this is post 94 of this thread!

Oi. Leave me out of the handbags at dawn. :ouch:

Considering the breadth of experience in this forum, and those that know the Alo and Gaz very well, I was simply asking a question in the context of some discussions around these motors and compressor surge when a lot of power is pulled rapidly. Supposedly, apart from power loss, it could result in a backfire (bang?).

This may be complete nonsense and was hoping someone could clarify if this is a known characteristic of those old engines.

Same old same old
 

Well this is running true to form.
Same old response and protagonists after every accident.
At what point does the thread split - one for condolences and the other for a mix of wild speculation and bollox?

I appreciate it is a rumour network but please retain some decorum - oh hang on - too early for that input - that is usually after circa 130 posts.......

About three days ago!

http://www.paulserra.com/wp-content/...nger-pulse.jpg

:ugh:

Sid

I really suggest you owe a lot of people a really big apology here. How f..king dare you suggest in your list that anyone should vent at me about cheap parts. I was asked why people put ac on other registers. I answered the comment with an example ( 341 not the type in question ) were the parts cheaper, yes but exactly the same, so do not imply that the parts are not airworthy and link it to this crash. My post has nothing to do with why the ac crashed and why would you suggest anyone should vent at me for answering a question
Quite frankly you are way out of order

H500, after I was vented at for simply quoting a news article, I think you'll find that it went like this;

I asked the question, 'What, if any, are the regs for carrying passengers in Hungarian registered ex military aircraft?'

Crab came back with, "I think there are all sorts of regulations that are 'worked around' with the Hungarian registration - many of them related to dodgy maintenance practices and component histories."

Then you added to the topic with, "If it is anything like having the 341 on the YU reg it is to do with cheaper parts ..."


My question was nothing to do with parts, maintenance nor licensing, it was purely about passenger carrying.
You brought 'cheaper parts' to the thread which is why it was mentioned in the list of what people have commented on. Nobody, apart from you, has mentioned any airworthiness issues.

Rather surprised to see the suggestion that an Alouette 2 can be converted to fly with an Astazou 111 or XIV (see post 84).
Is there any evidence to support this idea? Alouettes were sold with either the Artouste II or the Astazou IIA (not a Gazelle variant).

I note that the Alouette II is a non-EASA aircraft and therefore it's maintenance is regulated by the country of registration. So to determine any airworthiness issues you need to be aware of the local regulations.

One could look upon certain aircraft types being put on a foreign register when operating in a different country as using a 'flag of convenience'.

Whilst there may have been an element of that here, I understand that the aircraft was HA registered because all the expertise in maintaining this type was in Hungary. That's fair enough.

The AAIB's investigation will be interesting to follow and this comes quite soon after the CAA's ongoing work, subsequent to an AAIB Safety Rec, concerning the operation of foreign registered aircraft based in the UK.

The investigation will hopefully be assisted by the accounts of the survivors, having witnessed those last few seconds before impact.

5-up doing quickstops on a warm day would certainly have tested the quality of the maintenance, foreign or otherwise.

Unless it was windy of course, then pretty much just a flare required eh?

How windy would that need to be then chodjock? :rolleyes:

METAR/SPECI from EGNJ, Humberside (United Kingdom).

METAR EGNJ 172050Z AUTO 32004KT 9999 NCD 18/12 Q1021=

METAR EGNJ 172020Z 27007KT CAVOK 19/12 Q1020=

METAR EGNJ 171950Z 27007KT CAVOK 20/12 Q1020=

METAR EGNJ 171920Z 28010KT CAVOK 22/12 Q1020=

METAR EGNJ 171850Z 28011KT CAVOK 22/12 Q1020=

METAR EGNJ 171820Z 29009KT CAVOK 23/11 Q1020=

METAR EGNJ 171750Z 28010KT CAVOK 24/10 Q1020=

METAR EGNJ 171720Z 27010KT 230V290 CAVOK 24/12 Q1019=

METAR EGNJ 171650Z 28011KT CAVOK 24/12 Q1019=

METAR EGNJ 171620Z 29010KT 260V320 CAVOK 24/12 Q1019=

SS
 

Thanks for that - being 3-days behind the curve is quite good for me!
The disadvantage of using a small screen ;-)

What has the quality of the maintenance to do with having 5 up doing quicksteps. ??????? I would suggest it has more to do with pilot skills.

I don't know about you but if something goes bang and there is a crash then I would be looking towards mechanical failure - hence the quality of maintenance might be an issue.

The end of a quickstop - especially when heavy - puts a lot of strain on the whole engine and transmission system - high power, lots of pedal etc.

If it was just pilot error then maintenance clearly won't be an issue. I don't know what sort of pilot he was.

Chodjock,
Will this wind strength, turning the quickstop into a mere flare; need to be lesser or greater than the translational lift airspeed ;)

Sid
Even you should know the answer to that.
Clearly if it is windy, say 30kts or so, quick stops are much less of a strain on the mechanics than if there is no wind at all, assuming heading into the wind that is.
Not knowing the wind on the day though, my statement was generic, trying to balance out a one sided statement about it being a warm day and thus hard on the quality of maintenance.
The A2 has a big engine I believe, fully capable for load lifting perhaps?
I'm guessing 5 up, a warm day, 10kts of wind, power should not be a problem. What was the fuel load?, probably light I should think, coming in to an airfield.
Could it be fuel was so light the engine sucked air during the flare?

Just a couple of things; what happens at the end of a flare? and the one I'd really like you to answer without googling, how do you think a downwind quickstop is executed?

er you stop. Obviously lots of power, pitch and pedal required, even more if in warm, still air.

Carefully! requiring a little more height and power I should think, better still, avoid it.!

Why are you asking? Do you think I may not know how to fly?

We are going off thread here Sid...

So we can add to the list;

Chopjock - Fuel starvation during the final stages of a quick stop.

Where I come from, a quick stop is still considered an emergency procedure. Can we just grant the guy the benefit of the doubt and assume that the trouble would have started before the alleged quick stop?

... or just as it was coming to completion.

for many of us, it is a basic general handling manoeuvre, used as a method of going from fast cruise to position for landing.

I'm just saying that it's a bit too easy to conclude that the quick stop was the origin of the emergency. Could well be that he executed the quick stop to react to something going kaput, couldn't it?

Sid. I'm sitting here in a bar at Oshkosh (made it eventually after twenty years of trying), had a fantastic week enjoying the true joyous spirit of aviation, but with many thoughts (and,frankly, the odd tear) for our friend Nigel. Me, with nearly thirty years of rotary experience but with great humility to what I'm certain I don't know, and of listening to your superior experience and put-downs, and resisting any response, since the day Pprune started, with this thread you have crossed the line. Your insistence on desperately needing to impose your supposed experience and technical superiority are, frankly, offensive. Buy a mirror. Or listen to those around you - for once. Show some ****** respect to our friend Nigel please. Hijacking this thread to encourage speculation, technical, pilot error, wind/weather, w/b, you name it.. on the cause of his death is disgraceful. And don't you dare respond. I won't join you in that gutter. I've learned one thing in thirty years of flying - ATTITUDE, not the thickness of your logbook, is everything. Humility is a key ingredient.

B47 ....... where's the Like, Love, Wow emoticon thingy!

B47,

I think you'll find that there are eight different contributors here that have speculated on a cause, whereas I have not.
Please be more specific as to where I have done this as it appears to me that you haven't read the thread.

I refer you in particular to posts 94 & 99.


p.s. PPRuNe 'started' in 1996, I didn't join until 2002 :ok:

whoknowsidont - if you had any malfunction that you thought serious, I suggest the last thing you would do is try to bring the aircraft to a high hover when an immediate landing was possible.

The suggestion was that the extra power, pedal etc required at the end of a quickstop, might well have been what caused component failure - if that indeed was what caused this unfortunate crash.

B47 - I understand your pain and I think all posters here feel for someone who has lost a friend but speculation about causes of accidents is what happens on pprune - it's human nature. As usually happens, the original thread splits into two, one for condolences and one for speculation/analysis. If the speculation thread upsets you, don't read it.

Everything I have read here points to the fact that Nigel was a well-liked chap and it is always sad to lose one of the good guys - many of us who served in the military have played that scene out often enough - as, I am sure, has Sid.