Senior Aviation/Austin Aviation
 

Rotorheads,

Can you guys give your opinion on the following website senior aviation cheapest pplh cheapest cplh save up to 40% on helicopter lessons and flight training

I think it is dubious.... but need some convincing.....

Please help...

Can you Guys have a look at this website??
 

When you click terms and conditions, it says contact us. Never a good thing.

Any organisation worth its salt, will show everything up front.

The aircraft in the picture is registered to a lifting company in the midlands. Just all doesn't check out

Just to clarify,

I think it is a con... Thoughts????

I agree, think
its a fraud..

There are no actual contact details. Just a couple of email addresses and freephone numbers. Any proper business is going to have an address that you can actually visit.

There are photos of two aircraft on the site, G-CHAP and G-DFOX. G-INFO lists the contact details for the owners of both aircraft. If you do want to follow this up, it might be worth contacting the aircraft owners to find out if they are connected to this 'operation' in any way.

The bit about "save 40%" is supposedly the ability to claim back 20% VAT and 20% income tax, because you apparently have your own aviation business.

Hmmmm...:=

Domain name:
senioraviation.co.uk

Registrant:
senior aviation

Registrant type:
UK Individual

Registrant's address:
5 Claverley
Lower Beobridge
Wolverhampton
Staffordshire
WV5 7AH
United Kingdom

Personally I think it is very shady, but you cannot stop these guys from advertising a product to sell to joe public, and sell them the "dream".
Any of you guys remember one of the first consultant company's selling the "dream" who were called PLH. They had a good one of telling people give them a load of money and they can get cheap discounts at the flying schools, and that they knew so many people in the industry they could get you a job tomorrow.
After they went bust taking a lot of people's money with them, because in the end they did not know anyone in the industry accept for the people they had put through.
So sell the dream and take their cash, should work well in this economy:}

Fluffy

The domain name address is not formatted correctly. Quick check on post code shows it should be 5 Lower Beobridge, Claverley ...etc... and not the other way round. Wonder if that is intentional to put you off the scent?

All fine and dandy till hmrc decide they don't like it....

Assuming its 'legitimate', you'd be better of doing this yourself, it's nothing complicated.

Much better off getting the scheme approved by your accountant etc so you can claim against their insurance when it all goes wrong :}

Seeing as there is a freephone number why don't you just call them up and ask all the questions you want?

Be very careful!

You can only reclaim VAT if you are a VAT registered business (or self employed) and can convince HMRC that you need the qualification in legitimate pursuit of your business. In other words, a PPL by itself would not qualify. If you are doing a CPL, HMRC would probably need a letter from a prospective employer saying he would employ you when qualified. Be sure that HMRC will scrutinise that very carefully!

You can only claim back income tax by off setting it against future earnings. In other words, you would have to declare a loss in your business for the first year or two while you are doing the training, and then use that to offset against earnings in the future (but only from earnings that result from flying), and you can only do this for (I think) 5 years. See HMRC Help sheet 227.

Not a tax expert, but an educated opinion from running my own business for many years. Take professional advice!

senior av
 

just to clear a few pointers from the above, I own senior av, the address at 5 lower beobridge was my address when i registered the domain, if you google it you will see its 5 minutes down the road from wolverhampton airport where I also set up a flight school called austin aviation which is were g-chap comes into it, which is managed by us for the owner carl,feel free to go to austin aviation website and you will see me on the meet the team page, as for g-fox it was based at wolverhampton.we started senior av because we had students coming in asking about the vat, and because i'd claimed my tax and vat when i did my training we stared to help our students at the school,Im a bit long in the tooth but im doing my cplh ground school with phill croucher at captonline, we also purchase his superb study books and phil is also aware I set the school up with alan austin.

P.s no mystery guys, its just something new and we are here to help pilots and students from "any school in the uk" also we don't need a business address but if any guys want to meet me at our wolverhampton airfield austin aviation offices i'd be more than happy to do so.

did my training with robert power heliflght.

Jason Senior. "jerrysenior" nick name at school no mystery there either:)

Jerry - well done for speaking up. :D Most don't.

Agreed - thanks for clearing this up.

If I might make a suggestion, it would be that you don't give people the impression that they can expect to recover tax and VAT for either PPL(H) or CPL(H) training / examinations. The circumstances in which that would be accepted by HMRC are i. for PPL(H) virtually non-existent; and ii for CPL(H) extraordinarily narrow and rare (perhaps you have a CPL and a fixed-wing business and want to expand into rotor-work - then you would have grounds to make a claim). I think that it would be better to assume that there would be no recovery of tax and then if that proved to be incorrect it would be 'good news' and not the other way around.

Please also see PM

senior aviation
 

But thats the point, we are saving students vat and income tax on there pplh/cplh/ir......... and all the rest,with our business model, I did it myself in 2003 the fact that we have put it together as a package, which makes it easier for our guy's to do, all of a sudden it changes things,I agree if you went to an account tomorrow and say I want to claim back vat and tax on my pplh and if you went to the vat office and said i want to do this, they would all say no every time agreed,and if they said yes we wouldn't have developed the package, it's the accounts that we work with that apply for the vat and get it because of the business model.

as you can see I've been a member of pprune since 2010 and only posted 5 times,but the comments above can be very "damaging" I think one guy said we had only put a phone number up there and an email address ha ha, I don't know how much more information you need to contact a company,and worse I think someone mentioned "fraud" which is amazing how you can come to that without speaking to someone or any grounds for this, but as a flight school and senior aviation in such a small industry everybody knows everyone, so to jeopardise both companies and our reputation for a couple of hundred pounds profit every few months, to help fellow pilots and students after I've spent tens of thousands of pounds on training "I don't think so"

I understand that there will be lots of people saying you can't do it, I've had people telling me this my whole life,and believe me its much more fun to go out and do it.

Guys I've already broke my record for replying to posts, take the course don't take the course, and the guys that say you can't will always be the one's saying you can't.

if you have a dream follow your heart,keep your head down,work hard,treat people how you would want to be treated and I'll see you smiling on the other side.

Oh almost forgot, I think one guy said that we would be taking money off people and running in these bad times, which did make me smile,wouldn't it be nice to get some of the money back from the government for all the tax we pay on food,fuel,council tax,income tax,vat,cars,bikes,flight traininggggggg, thousands and thousands.

I'm with you guy's we are trying to help,and the fact that we give a 100% money back guarantee if we can't save you money, I can't see what more you can offer :ugh:

wish all you guys the best and you know where we are if you need us.

do something different tomorrow.

Jason.

JerrySenior

On your main page there is an error,

"even if your in the middle of your PPL course or just starting your commercial we can save you money."

should read

"even if you are in the middle of your PPL course or just starting your commercial ?licence/course/qualification we can save you money."

If your website is aimed at non-aviation potential customers, referring to commercial without a specific reference may be confusing, commercial as in a TV ad?

Its only a little thing but typos on your main page stand out and detract from your message.

heads up
 

finally positive feed back thanks for that, english was never my thang ;)


many thanks.

Jason.

This Vat thing has been done by me, however the Vat man was dubious until I showed him the reason why I was wanting to claim back the vat on all training and such things, when I showed him the details and thus the reason he agreed, turned out he was ex Raf and also an Anorak who went to all the local airshows......I think that helped, but I didnt know that until after he made a noise like the man from "Del-Monte":D

Peter R-B
Lancashire

http://www.pprune.org/rotorheads/515...k-website.html

The other thread is VERY interesting indeed. Moderators have moved my post from the other thread to this one, but I thought it was important to edit this post with a link back to the original thread I was posting against, so you know what prompted this...

I'm training for my PPL(H) now and upto 52 hours so far.

I looked into this last year when I started my training. I asked about the VAT thing (as 20% on top of £250 lesson is hard to swallow). So far, I have paid over £2600 of VAT on the lessons. Plus, there is VAT on the 52 landing fees I've had to pay, and VAT on the ground school courses I have taken and exams. I bet I am easily up to £3000 of VAT since starting this.

When I looked into this last year, the flying school said 'no' to me claiming the VAT back. I also checked with my accountant (who is senior partner of his firm and an ex-tax man) and he also said 'no'.

I have also 'moaned' about this to fellow student pilots and the qualified pilots at the airfield and they've all had to pay VAT, because their accountants and instructors have all said 'you can't claim back the VAT'.

I'd really like to know more about this.

On your website, you have some testimonials, namely :

Reviewer: Joe manchester http://www.senioraviation.co.uk/ekmp...em/stars_5.png
saved £4,300 so far and I'm still saving awesome product and service

Reviewer: Jeff Staffordshire http://www.senioraviation.co.uk/ekmp...em/stars_5.png
Can't thank these guys enough saved me thousands A+

Reviewer: Owen Chester http://www.senioraviation.co.uk/ekmp...em/stars_5.png
wish i had found this company when I started my ppl training but they have just saved me 7k on my commercial first class

Reviewer: Carl Essex http://www.senioraviation.co.uk/ekmp...em/stars_5.png
Just finished my PPL(H), last qtr to date I've saved £6,349 I had tried accountants at the start but because of the type of business they couldn''t give a real answer yes,no,maybe I was uurrrrrr !!!!!!! lol go for it.


Please could I contact these people for a chat?

This is all VERY interesting indeed.

I'm training for my PPL(H) now and upto 52 hours so far.

I looked into this last year when I started my training. I asked about the VAT thing (as 20% on top of £250 lesson is hard to swallow). So far, I have paid over £2600 of VAT on the lessons. Plus, there is VAT on the 52 landing fees I've had to pay, and VAT on the ground school courses I have taken and exams. I bet I am easily up to £3000 of VAT since starting this.

When I looked into this last year, the flying school said 'no' to me claiming the VAT back. I also checked with my accountant (who is senior partner of his firm and an ex-tax man) and he also said 'no'.

I have also 'moaned' about this to fellow student pilots and the qualified pilots at the airfield and they've all had to pay VAT, because their accountants and instructors have all said 'you can't claim back the VAT'.

I'd really like to know more about this.

Thanks

If something seems to good to be true, it usually is.

Firstly, Senior Aviation is selling a business franchise and states that it doesn't matter with which school you are training
How would A. N. Other flight school feel about this?

I would be sceptical about any organisation that claims it can set up a business bank account and business credit card without credit checks? What happened to Money Laundering Regulations? Proof of ID?

Secondly, you cannot reclaim VAT and/or income tax for a PPL. I know some ppruners have done so in the past where they have demonstrated a business plan which encompassed CPL/FI or IR training immediately afterwards as part of a modular training programme but times have changed. When the company owner of this website has stated that he successfully managed to do so, it was ten years ago when the Inland Revenue and Customs & Excise were two separate organisations; they are now one - HM Revenue and Customs.

I've said it before, and I guess I'll say it again ... you can only reclaim VAT on your training if you become self-employed afterwards (either as a sole trader or via your own limited company through which you would pay yourself via PAYE and maybe dividends). If you become employed (i.e. North Sea), then the VAT reclaimed would have to be paid back as you are NOT in business in your own right. The mechanisms for reclaiming income tax (which is different to VAT) on pre-business training are, to the best of my knowledge, non-existent. Hell, I couldn't even reclaim income tax on my ACA training which I partly self-funded and that was back in 1990.

I reckon that the owners of this franchise model have found a local accountant who reckons they can get this past HMR&C; I, along with a few other ppruners here who are businessmen or who have sought professional advice, am dubious. Very dubious.

I would urge anyone here not to part with any money for this franchise model without checking it first with qualified professionals i.e. Chartered or Certified accountants or a member of the Institute of Tax. I would trust that this Senior Aviation would send the "fine print" and T&Cs for inspection before money has changed hands. Personally, I'd like to know the name of the accountant who does all this on ones behalf; presumably a 64-8 has to be signed in order for them to act as your agent?

Now may be a good time to point out that anyone can set up as an accountant; there are no restrictions so it's a good idea to check the actual qualification.

Cheers

Whirls

Whirls----Love your style.......

Be rude not too as they say.......:D:D

I would dearly love to know why, whilst typing any reply to a thread, I cannot see my typos. As soon as I press the submit button, those typos fly out of the screen and slap me 'round the face. :ouch:

Cheers

Whirls

I'm trying not to get dragged into this, but as the owner some comments can be very damaging. My home address was posted on here and I've given out our flight school address, I don't think there's anything to hide, and have no need too.
As a lot of pilots have claimed vat and claimed tax, I think we are on the agreement that it does and can happen, its just that we have put it together as a package and a business, to take all the stress and time away from it, we are setting you up with a business and its totally legal, also if its done wrong and you don't get your vat number, its near impossible to convince the vat office any different so be careful.

As for getting a business bank account we can and we do supply one, it's got to be cleared for fraud checks with i.d no mystery there, all part of the service, no godfather involved :)

"Selling lesson's for their flight school", we don't see a problem with promoting the school their training with and bringing in more business, but if your school doesn't want you to after all the money you are spending with them, then I think it's a bit poor, but if the school doesn't for what ever reason, your business will sell training for our flight school and you can carry on training at yours, we look at it as another company selling for us.

people keep saying "contact accountant" "accountant" people do go to see the accountant, then they come to us, so after you've been to an accountant and you say "I want to claim my vat back and tax back on flying", they are going to say no otherwise we wouldn't be doing what we do.

hope thats cleared that bit up.

we offer a 100% money back guarantee if we can't save you money,and you know where we are if you don't !!!!!

and if you think we are going to plaster our business model all over the site "not going to happen"

also they are certified chartered accountants.

if you have any more problems, questions and would like to meet us at our wolverhampton airport office, for people that are really interested in joining us and meeting face to face, I'd be more than happy to discuss any questions you may have.

Have a good day and happy flying.

Jason

Being a bit slow ( Learning to fly) I had long discussions with both HMRC & my accountant regarding both tax & VAT the accountants reply was "we will try it BUT it could \will come back to bight you".
HMRC, I never new they had a sense of humour one actually laughed

I can promise you that any accountant who believes that it is genuinely possible to claim back VAT and Income Tax for flight training would say YES, as that way they would earn some fees. Even accountants need to eat.

Cheers

Whirls

It may just be that I'm an old git and a bit out of touch with all you youngies but bad spelling and grammar is a huge put-off for me when spending money. Especially when related to obtaining a professional license. And does not put one's mind at ease when looking to someone for advice on such scary entities as HMRC, Tax and VAT.

Not meaning to be facetious, but there's no excuse for the above unless your eyes can't process red squiggly lines! :)

Come on guys really?:)

Sorry jerrysenior but actually yes, really. I've felt as though I've had to interpret what you're saying rather than truly understand it. You may well have some valid points but if they are not coherently made, other readers will likely misinterpret those points. You've complained of some potentially defamatory remarks but maybe those remarkss were made because you did not express yourself clearly.

Let's eat Grandma ... good grammar saves lives! :8

Cheers

Whirls

point taken whirly:)

If you are self-employed and you then claim back more VAT than you charged on you will get what you shelled out back - but do it too often and you can guarantee an inspection.....................

This VAT reclaim isn't that complex and it is possible.

The first thing you must do is establish a trading position and company, register for VAT and then it is a simple input v output VAT (i.e how much you are paying in VAT for invoices you sent verses how much you paid in VAT for invoices you paid).

Obviously its the "trading position" element that is tricky since you can't charge for being a pilot without a commercial licence. However that doesn't mean you can't have an aviation business, who then trains its staff to become a pilot..

And of course a trading position doesn't need to be profitable as it can be supported via a directors loan account until the business is profitable.

But it has to be trading. You have to be raising invoices. And in my case HMRC wanted a detailed business plan showing how the company could become profitable and when.

If you end up in dispute your accounting fees plus penalties and time will be far far greater than a proportion of 20% of your costs

To which you might have answered that all this flight training, with the aim of becoming a commercial pilot, was part of boosting the companies revenue stream in the medium term and forms part of a change in the strategy of the business since inception etc, etc blah..??

There is a lot made of accounting fees, answering to HMRC and the fear of penalty. Frankly if you have a real business with a plan that is aviation centred then there is nothing to worry about because there are a great many real reasons why one might embark on pilot training to enhance/support or even evolve a current business.

For instance one great and long running aviation business in the UK would be Martin Baker. No doubt at some point, having done all the boffin bits, it might have been useful for someone to actually fly a plane and test it. Sure you could hire a pilot/plane short term but it would be perfectly reasonable for them to have trained someone to fly to support the needs of the business in the long term, and no doubt expensed via the business which included reclaiming the VAT.

On a smaller scale what about someone that might do aircraft re-sprays? Perhaps learning to fly might enable the business to give better service, etc, etc.

Business can change direction and evolve there is nothing dodge in that.

The crux of the matter is whether there is a real business. If there is, it might be painful to go through the audit by HMRC and you might have to prove your position before the First Tier Tribunal to win but with the right evidence and enough hard work you stand a chance.


UK tax planning

Not referrring to any particular business opportunity whether discussed on this thread so far or not.

Remember that if the main benefit (or one of the main benefits) of an intended course of action (known as 'an arrangement') is the obtaining of a tax advantage then the scheme promotor, or the person undertaking the scheme, must notify HMRC within 5 days of the scheme being available or within 30 days of implementation if you design the arrangement yourself. Failure to do so is an offence, even if the arrangement is correct, in a legal sense, and therefore it actually works. This remains the case even if there is a real business behind the arrangement.

If you think that these rules might apply, and you are a promoter, it is important to seek professional advice to confirm that the rules do not apply to your idea; or make a disclosure anyway to cover yourself. If you are using an arrangement that provides you with a tax benefit which is significant then make sure that you have been given a scheme number by the promoter or seek assurance from the promoter / seek your own professional advice to confirm that the disclosure rules do not apply OR talk to HMRC to confirm the position.

HMRC notes on these rules are reproduced below and the detailed version can be found at http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/ria/disclosure-guidance.pdf. The rules are drawn to be as wide as possible, and Hallmarks 2-5 are most typically found:


Separately, there is also a disclosure requirement for arrangements intended to provide a VAT advantage. These rules are unlikely to apply; the business needs a turnover of at least £600,000 per annum.



This is information only: take advice from a suitably qualified person not an internet chat forum

Doesn't apply to us as we are setting up a business to sell training online with an e-shop the fact that you can claim "if you wish" is irrelevant .

but a very good point nice to see facts posted.

thanks John r81

Jerry Senior

Ignoring the VAT / Taxation element of this scheme, let's think about the flight school the student is learning through.

Do they really want their students competing online against them for customers? Given that the potential customer is searching the internet and has found a number of organisations able to offer let's say, a trial lesson, at a certain price at a certain airfield - do the school and their students want to compete for that business?

I know that if I had quoted a customer and then found someone else trying to sell me that same customer with "something in it for them" I'd tell them where to stick it. The student is unable to do the job and if he started passing business to competitors on the airfield I'm sure the relationship with the school would soon evaporate.

Don't get me wrong - I'm all for making training more cost effective for students, but getting them to buy a rod so they can fish in your pond seems a pretty stupid idea.

Firebird - I'm not sure reading the website that you are actually competing with anyone... more just a booking agent?

I'm just not sure how that relationship is formalised - i.e. if you refer someone how you get paid your £10.

If that can be established its pretty nice as it does give you that trading position - just not sure why you need to spend £1600 to do something you could do for yourself....

Pitts - Surely paying someone to sell you business you would/could/should have won yourself is competition in anyone's books?

To make it worse, unlike "voucher pimps" such as Groupon et al, your student is unlikely to be engaged in outbound business generation - they're just going to be competing for those customers Googling "cheap helicopter flight".

FB