selling training flights
 

its no different to red letters days,adventure 001,into the blue and all the rest.

The student charges £10.00 more per flight so the school gets the same amount they always charge wish I could say the same for red letter days and the rest which normally eat into your money for getting you the business but everyones ok with them.

Remember the student and school should work together with this to help both parties they are spending tens of thousands.

But if the schools not happy doing it for them the students can sell them for our school so either way we don't see a problem with that, the money goes to the schools anyway.

jerry senior.

DIY
 

A lot more goes into this and takes the headache that is vat away and setting it all up for the student, banks, e website, vat and much more that's why we put it together as a package to help.

Jerry senior

Sorry Jerry, you're wrong. It is totally different from the voucher pimps.

Your scheme members are very unlikely to be sending tens of thousands of emails a day with a wide variety of offers. They will not have a helpdesk full of staff and high quality presentation packs to send the customer.

They are going to be parasites feeding off of the product offerings the school has developed over time. Unless they increase the marketplace they are just competing for the same customers.

Also, I'd be careful when implying that most helicopter companies are "OK" with the voucher pimps. In an ideal world I expect most helicopter businesses owners would like to see them fail spectacularly! I know I would!

The only way you will stop adventure, red and all the others is to all refuse to do the flights but I don't think thats going to happen anytime soon but I know how you feel about that.

Its not the students goal to make loads of money off online sales because it doesn't happen and the students know this.
the goal for them is to save the vat and tax get the qualifications and get a job.

Hi - to be quite honest in regards to this scheme (as has now been admitted since by someone connected? with it) it really isn't a big deal in the sense of competition. It would seem its merely a way to generate a trading position so that VAT can be reclaimed.

Its a nice idea tbh although I'm not sure why anyone needs to pay so much for it. An off the shelf company is a few hundred quid and registering for VAT is free, as is getting a bank account etc.

As for the commercials of people googling cheap helicopter flights, etc,etc really when you look at the sites that you refer to I'm not sure how operators loose out when hour helicopter flights in R44's set the punts back £350 each....

If I was an operator I'd gladly pay £10 for every one of those referrals...

vat and tax
 

like I said before a lot of work goes into this get it wrong and you can kiss your vat number and tax goodbye :)

also you claim back 20% vat and 20% tax on the franchise cost so its not much based on all the work we do.

And if it were that simple I might agree but I just can't see that it is.

From what I can see, the franchisee will bill the customer and have to pay whatever service charge for the on-line transaction. They then have a contract to deliver the flight.

If the franchisee then tells the customer that they're not delivering the flight, so please call school X, I would expect the customer to be a bit :mad:'d off. If they're smart, they'll cancel the sale under the distance selling regulations and book directly with the organ grinder.

Let's not even consider the undoubted complications of scheduling, Wx cancellations, changing customer requirements etc etc. Is the franchisee really going to be set up to cope with that? Telling the customer to contact school X after you've paid over your money is just not good enough.

You might say "well that's what the voucher pimps do", but that is not the case either. These organisations have excelled in their relationships with customers to a point where many organisations across many sectors are dependent on their "do it for cost" handouts in order to keep fresh faces coming through the door.

Jerry, perhaps you could elaborate on the sales cycle or point us to a franchisee website?

office
 

If you would like to visit me at our offices I'll be more than happy to answer any questions you may have or if you have a flight school I'd be happy to visit and go over any details.

Jerrysenior

I've just come through a horrific time after an audit from HMRC with my current business (non-aviation related). Don't mess with them! I made a bad choice of accountant and they made things messy.
HMRC can charge up to £5K every time they look at something they're not happy with. They kept asking why my profits were so low in January compared to the rest of the year. My industry shuts down in January but they wouldn't accept that as an answer and kept trying to dig deeper. I ended up with £15K of charges because of that. I hadn't actually done anything wrong other than was late with payments. It's not worth messing with them.

Give them their 20% and give it on time!!!

A few years go, I had issues with HMRC and useless accountants.

I came under audit, and the accountants I used had a few pilots on their books. So I made the (wrong) assumption that they were fully capable of providing the services I was to be paying them for.

Turns out my accountants were claiming things for me that were not supposed to be claimed for. HMRC had an argument that you can't claim for a new qualification, just an extension / addition of a licence / qualification that you already have. The accountants shrugged their shoulders and said I have to pay it back.
When I asked how'd that happen, I pay you as the experts, to assist and get the information correct. They said a new case law had passed and I sign to confirm, so therefore responsibility lies with. Ok, thanks, money well spent!

Little faith in accountants, less in HMRC.

It is a good way of saving some money, but anyone considering it, make sure you get a good accountant, or at least know what you are entitled to as it can come back on you, and they won't just stop at that years audit, they will go back.

Trainee helicopter pilot interview
 

Hi there,

This is the first time I am posting a thread here. I am in need of some advice about what I need to know about helicopters for an Interview on Tuesday next week in Wolverhampton (West Midlands, UK) with "Senior Helicopters".

I have always wanted to be a professional airline pilot, however, I came across a job advertisement which I took an interest in and decided to apply for.

I don't know much about helicopters, but I would like to give myself the best chances of getting on to the training programme.

Does anyone here know what kind of questions they will ask?

Or, what I need to know beforehand.

Can I take printouts of information with me? To show I have done some research etc?

What do I need to talk about show an interest? etc?

I would appreciate every help/advice I can get from any of you.

thank you

Mohammed :)

Hey
 

Did they reply to you Mohammed?

hey
 

Hey Bobby,

Yes, I attended an interview, I was successful..

I am now supposedly one of 10 (out of 200 applicants) who will take a 2-3 hour flight test in the coming week or two.

However, I want to know whether this is a con or not.. it just seems too good to be true.

for them to pay 70,000 for the training, to give 250 pounds per week on top of that, to also pay for the medical at Gatwick airport, but to ask me to pay 290 pounds for the flight test. Which I have now paid for..

Which is worrying me, as people are telling me its too good to be true, and that it seems too undercover as they don't have their own training facility as I was told by the interviewer that if successful at the test flight, as they pick the best two from the 10 who will take the test flight, that I will be relocated to a closer airport to me (which would be Coventry).

As well as this, after completing the three year training, doing home study at home whilst training, they will employ the two pilots and still pay wages on top of the 250 pounds per week even once training has been completed.

Seems too good to be true..

Also, I have asked someone and he says that he has been asked about this outfit before and that it seems like a con to him and others think the same.

any advice?

Mohammed

Advice? You think it is too good to be true and you may be right. I don't know, but it certainly does sound strange when there are lots and lots of already qualified pilots currently looking for work.

My advice would be to not give them any more money until you understand it better and are confident that it is NOT too good to be true. Ask a lot of questions during/after the flight test. And do let us know how you get on!

Well, my test flight is on Monday 7th October at 11.30am.. I will ask a friend or family member to come with me just incase..

Are there any questions in particular that you reckon I should ask?

At the interview I was given a copy of a newspaper article.. here's the link..

Lift-off for Dudley teenager with dream job as a helicopter pilot « Express & Star

I don't know whether I should take this with a pinch of salt or not.. it is a legitimate newspaper.. but the training that this young lad is supposedly undertaking is only 12months long and not three years long..

Mohammed

Hi Mohammed,

If you get to spend 2-3 hours flying then your £290 will have been well spent as at £100/hr it may be some of the cheapest training you'll ever do (should you go on to pay for a licence from your own pocket).

If what you get is 2.5hrs of ground tuition and a half hour flight then you've probably been scammed and it would be interesting to see what made you one of the 1-in-20 (other than the fact that you paid up).

I'm sure we'll all be interested to hear how Monday goes!

FB

If you're feeling brave enough, I would ask them how they are going to fund the training. Are you going to be financially bonded for the cost of training in any way? And what sort of job security can they offer in the future?

I would also ask about the split between any potential flying duties and any ground duties, particularly if those ground 'duties' involve valeting aircraft.


(Also, Mohammed, please be aware that the owner of the company, Jerry Senior, reads this site and will undoubtedly be reading this thread).

Mohammed,

It looks like you might well have been conned. Your £290 might only get you 10 minutes flying:

https://www.facebook.com/permalink.p...31820176834862

:mad:

Any advice as to what my next move should be?

They appear to be piggybacking Heliflight's approvals. From Austin Aviation's website:

About Us

Cancel the 'assessment' and ask for your money back.

Or contact a local/national newspaper and conduct an 'undercover expose'. Or even get in touch with BBC's Watchdog: https://ssl.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b006mg74/contact

Thanks, will look into it..

I agree with Bravo - unless they can commit to at least an hours actual flying, demand your money back.

Should I go for the assessment then? or cancel it as some as saying..?

Been well and truly had
 

Having been whittled down from 200 to 10 applicants(apparently) I had my flight training today whether to see if I had the natural ability to fly a helicopter. After being told that I would have to pay for it as they had to use a 3rd party as well( Austin aviation, I'm sure these 2 companys both **** from the same pot btw) £290. I had my concerns but as they told me it would be 2-3 hours training I thought at the least I'd have an hours flying experience. 1st of all when I logged myself in at there office 1st thing I was told to do was to sign a disclaimer that I wouldn't ask for a refund, after that I was shown to Austin aviation with 9 other people for a pre flight briefing( I can only imagine that the missing 1 out of the 10 clued on these were con merchants) which taught us how helicopters work. When we were finished there we were told to decide between ourselves who has which turn in the helicopter. To my dismay we had literally a 10 minute flight in the helicopter with mr Alan austin( if that's his real name.) when the flight was over each person coming out of the helicopter was given a test which didnt even relate to what we had been taught. We were given 20 multiple choice mind boggling questions and weren't told that you had to finish the 20 questions by the time the next candidate was finished flying the helicopter(10mins) I was told just to tick the questions off quickly as it didnt matter( probably didnt as they probably have no intention of giving anyone a trainee helicopter job). They said they'd be in touch within the next 2 weeks if I'm successful which I doubt anyone who hàs applied for it has been. Thing is Mohammed said his interview was Monday morning and mine being Friday lunchtime, my thinking is they've had a 10 candidate session each morning and same for the afternoons so for a week of people being duped they're making £29000 off vulnerable people such as myself wanting to better him/herself in this current financial climate, being sold a dream of a better life. I just want whoever reads this to spread the message loud and clear STAY AWAY FROM SENIOR HELICOPTERS & AUSTIN AVIATION!!!!!! I've read that it's not just midlands they're targeting, they've advertised the same position in Chester as well as probably many other places. I'm not expecting to get my money back but I do want people who are looking to better themselves not to be fooled like I was( and probably 100s of others) if it sounds to good to be true 99.999999999% of the time It probably is. As for jerrysenior how do you sleep at night?

I am appalled by all this. False hopes of a job, fake interviews and £290 for a ten minute experience in the helicopter. Unbelievable.

When you read back a few pages of this thread, you'll see an admission by 'jerrysenior' that he set up Austin Aviation. To claim they are a 3rd party company can be seen as fraud.

I think this is preying on desperate people, like so-called modelling agencies that promise the earth to young aspiring women with false hope of a modelling contract, as long as they pay a few hundred quid for some photos, also by some '3rd party' studio (which is owned and run by the agency).

To make this legit, it appears a young guy has been employed and will be trained up, and the cost is being met by the hundreds of wannabees who fork out £290 for a ten minute flight and made to go through a series of interviews and assessments to keep up the pretense of it being a 'job interview'

Great business model.

Immoral?? Unethical?? Illegal?? You decide.

I have a question - when you did your flight, which seat were you in? Were you in the right seat during this flight? Being in the 'correct' seat is important.

If you feel aggrieved by all this, then I suggest you contact the newspaper to make them aware of the false job advert and your local councils trading standard department. Perhaps the airfield management office would also like to know what's been going on under their noses.

There are lots of rules and regulations in flight training, both on the flight school and the airfield. Maybe some of these rules and regs are being broken? Austin Aviation piggybacks on another flight schools TRTO - maybe they should be informed about all this too?

Who do you know who can help you??

As for signing a disclaimer before you went for the briefing and test flight is a clear indication that they are covering their arses. If this was legitimate, no such paperwork would need to be signed!

In any walk of life, there will be those minority who set up schemes and scams and make a lot of money from naive and gullible people, classic schemes such as false modelling agencies charging young women for photos on false promises of getting modelling work will always be around.... doing this to wannabe helicopter pilots and charging almost £300 for a totally made-up "flight assessment test" is a new one on me.

I am shaking my head in disbelief.

This can't be good for our industry. We don't want helicopter pilot training to be viewed with the same kind of suspicion as we get when we receive emails from Nigerian businessmen who want to deposit £10,000,000 in our bank accounts. The longer this scheme is allowed to operate, the more it will tarnish the entire helicopter training industry.

I am similarly appalled, but not surprised. Regrettably, this outcome was hugely predictable. It surely has to be criminal fraud?

Assuming the story is true (as I am sure it is) maybe Pprune could do a huge favour to other wannabees and post a sticky warning at the top of the Rotorheads page?

An interesting point, that only serves to muddy the waters even further.

Just in case Mr Senior decides to come back and edit his original post, here it is:

However, I suspect that we won't be seeing Mr Senior posting on this thread again.

First of all I don't agree with what is going on and I believe that this is a practise praying on the young, naive, greedy (people want that £70k CPL(H) prize!) and vulnerable.


I guess it's a bit like music companies making CDs for pennies and selling for pounds.

How much do items of highstreet fashion cost to make? How much are they sold for?

What about the national lottery?!?

Years ago I used to fly around the boss of GHD Hair Straighteners - he made millions - why? Because he imported the product, boxed, ready to go on the shelf from China for £12 (inc tax & duty) and they sold to women who happily pay £100+ for a set!

If you want to make a lot of money you have to sell to a lot of people.

£290 for a 10minute flight that forms part of a 3 hour experience? Yes it seems a tad steep but you're never going to get an hour in an R44 from somebody who is looking to make a profit as well - It's circa £120 an hour just for fuel (and Wolverhampton's fuel ain't the cheapest in the UK).

My mate just sold his R44 Raven II and did some sums recently. Because Frank has insisted on so many mandatory things above and beyond the original maintenance schedule in years gone by it has cost more to run than expected. In fact it's cost him over £600 an hour (wet).

So in his aircraft a 10minute flight would be £100 for the aircraft alone.

Lets add an Instructor, premises, website, admin staff, landing fees, hangarage, advertising, telephone, stationary, annual business costs...

Then there is the all important profit!

(from Small Business - Chron.com)

Retail Clothing Industry Profit Margins
The retail clothing industry had an average gross profit margin of 48.46 percent in 2009 according to Butler Consultants. However, by the time you add up all the expenses involved in operating retail clothing stores, the average net profit margin is only 7.98 percent. If your expenses are typical, then around 7 to 12 percent net profit would be a reasonable goal.

Equipment Manufacturing Industry Profit Margins
Butler Consultants lists the gross profit margin of the equipment manufacturing industry as 31.98 percent in 2009. The net profit margin only works out to 6.81 percent, largely due to the significant capital expenses in this industry. Unless your expenses are much less than your competitors, you want to aim for at least 6 percent and perhaps up to 9 or 10 percent net profit for your equipment manufacturing business.

Telecommunications Industry Profit Margins
Gross profit margins averaged 86.51 percent for the telecommunications industry in 2010. While that seems like a healthy profit margin, overhead is very high in the telecommunications industry and the average net profit margin is only 10.99 percent. Assuming industry-average expenses, a reasonable profit margin would be anything between 10 and 15 percent.

Retail Electronics Industry Profit Margins
The average gross profit margin in the retail electronics industry come in on the mid to low side at 30.76 percent, but like all retail businesses, labor expenses are relatively high and the average net profit in the industry is only 4.68 percent. A net profit in the range of 5 to 8 percent would be reasonable for a retail electronics store.

Economy of Scale
Another important factor in determining a reasonable profit is the economy of scale of the business. A huge business like Walmart, for example, can afford a net profit of just a few percent on most items because of the volume of sales, but a local florist with a small sales volume needs to make profit margin several times that just to pay her bills and make a decent profit.

Great Business Model.

If it's too good to be true IT GENERALLY IS.

Highly unethical IMO (I won't pretend to have a humble one).

Lets hope some of these people actually DO get their CPL(H) whether that's through Senior Aviation or by working hard, saving, scrimping, paying bit by bit or raiding daddy's piggy bank.

Rip
 

Think you should report them to oft and watchdog bbc
https://ssl.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b006mg74/contact

I don't think an R44 was used though. They do their flight training and assessments in the R22, which is a lot cheaper to operate. Still, £290 for 10 mins in an R22 is outrageously expensive.

For about £100 or so LESS money, those people could have had a bonafide 30-minute trial lesson at any helicopter school in the country.

What they have been made to do instead is pay the best part of £300 for a 10-min flight under the pretense of a job interview selection process.

I'm guessing that they have been suffering in the recession like everybody else and students have been thin on the ground in recent years and I can only imagine how they rubbed their hands with glee when they dreamt this up. :=

Dozens of other flight schools could have done something similar to prop up their businesses during the recession, but didn't. What does this suggest?

And it's highly unlikely that these wannabee pilots handing over £290 for a ten-minute jolly will even know about pprune, so this will carry on happening.

Pray, verb: to to offer devout petition (intercession) for oneself (or on behalf of another) towards God.

Prey, verb: to victimise, attack or swindle another.

Well, it is Sunday! ;)

Having commented on previous "innovative" schemes jerrysenior seems to have come up with, it comes as no surprise to me that this one looks extremely dubious.

Get a gullible reporter to write a good news story, big yourself up, throw out a lure and then hope everyone bites. [Sound almost like a bloke who was going to fly firefighters to incidents for free!]

I feel some sympathy for the patsy who's been offered the first "apprenticeship". He must be beginning to wonder what he's got himself into. Of course, it could turn out he's the son of a mate of Jerry's.

Let's hope the press put a proper investigative journalist on to this so that the public can get to read the true story.

Yes.

Those are the characters that we are talking about.

Savoia - I pray you weren't preying on me with that coment ;)

Robinsonflyer - £100 for 30minutes in an r22 is extremely cheap - which school offers that?

I was under the impression senioraviation were operating an r44 gchap?

Austin Aviation have R22 & R44:

Helicopter Lessons Wolverhampton

Sorry for any confusion misterbonkers, I said for £100 or so less money, people can have a 30-min trial lesson... I meant £100 or so less than the £290 being charged for their 10-minute flight!

I've seen half hour trial lessons being offered anywhere from £170 to £200, depending on the school. My first lesson was in 1996 and cost £145 from Argos, for a half hour trial lesson gift voucher!

And I don't think this can be compared to buying a product at wholesale at £A and selling it retail at £B... this is completely different altogether.

This is about a scheme to get wannabee pilots in the door for a fake interview, telling them all that they're in the top 10 and asking them to part with £290 for a 10-minute 'assessment flight', followed by an email saying "you didn't get the job".

:{

They're advertising everywhere :(

Trainee Helicopter pilot (Wolverhampton) | Career-Jobs.co.uk

I've even seen it on the government jobcentre site. Can't find the link right now but anyone who has evidence should seriously report them.

SD