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Only 24 hour units past 0400. Hadn't got as far as the Xmas roster :eek:
The drop to 9 hour shifts is necessary else we work too many hours in a year. Hence we lose 23 days off per year |
4/3/4/3 roster
Hi
The roster you described exceeds the 60 hour rule (63 on each block of 7 x 9). Because the first day after nights is PART of a day off you only have 3 days off then 2 off - NOT 4 and 3 as described - 'A single day off shall include 2 local nights'. Annual days off 86.9 and every 3 months = 21.73! The 21 day roster you describe equates to 2190 annual hours and a 42.12 hour week. It would also give less time coverage to an area and make the requirement for floaters increase. At the moment it appears that those regions that do not have a 24 hour unit, will only have 3 pilots (NPAS) each - the rest being covered by floaters. You have to run 10 hour shifts to get the maximum time per area and minimise floaters - those areas with multiple types will be hardest hit by this way of managing the rosters - IF you do the math, those units, to run at maximum efficiency will actually need 4 pilots per unit minimum still with a need for floaters and give the full 24 hour coverage with 20 hour bases doing 10 hour maximum rosters. I guess it will be a different matter if the only goal is to save money and not honour the commitment to provide 20 hours from a unit. This still does not take into account the 15 minutes pre and post flight requirement of the present FTL or any handover period? |
Chilterns work past 03:00hrs every day.
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FTLs are going to be the primary concern, but looking at that roster it also presents problems for the observers hours.
If each shift is nine hours then over a three week period the observers would work 126 hours, six over their duty time. A quick call to Sussex shows how they fit into this roster: 08:00 - 16:30 (8.5 hrs) for early shifts Mon to Sat 16:00 - 01:00 (9 hrs) for late shifts Mon to Sat 09:00 - 16:30 (7.5 hrs) for early shifts on Sun 16:00 - 23:30 (7.5 hrs) for late shifts on Sun That totals 120 hours over the three weeks and allows for a half an hour handover. Looking at it I don't like the later shift option to allow for 20 hour coverage across the bases, as the late base would need to work something like this: 10:00 - 18:30 (8.5 hrs) for early shifts Mon to Sat 19:00 - 04:00 (9 hrs) for late shifts Mon to Sat 11:00 - 18:30 (7.5 hrs) for early shifts on Sun 19:00 - 02:30 (7.5 hrs) for late shifts on Sun That plays havoc with the FTLs as already indicated, and I think most people would want to be on the earlier shifts as there's no working after 01:00! Why can't they run with a six on four off, six on five off pattern (EEELLLRRREEELLLRRRRR) which needs seven observers and three and half pilots (six shifts not covered in a three week cycle)? This provides 20 hour coverage at each of the bases and requires very little increase in staffing over the nine hour shift pattern above. I know I've said increase when everything is realistically all about decreasing, but why spoil the ship for a ha'porth of tar? |
That 0400 finish would be a goodbye from me.... All regional bases (not 24hr) will be three pilot bases (goodbye Chief Pilots) so leave applications will have to be approved centrally by the regional CP and I'm betting there won't be enough slack in the system to get everyone's leave in, unless of course we're converting each Day's leave to hours like the bobbies. So there's another hit on time off.
I agree Gas Generator but sadly this is an already approved roster... Pilots are getting squeezed till the pips squeak. It will be interesting to see how Bank Holidays are managed? |
I know a few observers (a couple who have ten years or more experience) who are now thinking that it's time to depart air ops. Reasons range from security and stability to better work life balance and money/promotion. One is actively looking to leave the police altogether, although that's to do with Winsor as much as NPAS.
Chatting to them they reckon they've had a good run on air ops, and don't want to be part of an national aerial missing persons and senior officer a75e covering service! Part of the trouble is the uncertainty from a lack of hard information, or definite answers. Between NPAS and Winsor there is a very real chance that in a few short years there will be no experience, or possibly even police officers, on board police aircraft in the UK. |
C'mon Ollie, a statement updating things at NPAS (post 1st April) would go far.
Work your magic and push out a press release.... |
Windle,
It is possible that the outcome you mention in the last sentence of your post is the intention of all this inaction. After all, the driving force behind this initiative is to save money. With fewer aircraft they will need fewer crew of all categories. They think they may also save money by employing monkeys with their dietary requirements. It costs nothing to deal with resigning staff; those who are made redundant are different. [I am not suggesting for a moment that OD would be associated with such a stance]. |
So really, all we have is another 'In Principle' sign up. Police Air Support: The Police (Collaboration: Specified Function) Order 2012 - WMS This written ministerial statement on the provision of police air support was laid in the House of Commons on 27 March 2012 by Nick Herbert, and in the House of Lords by Lord Henley. The Minister of State for Policing and Criminal Justice (Nick Herbert): My right honourable Friend the Home Secretary has today laid before the House a draft of The Police (Collaboration: Specified Function) Order 2012. This Order requires the police service to collaborate in the provision of air support through a single collaboration agreement. I have consulted the Police Service about the proposed Order and, having carefully considered the responses received, I have decided to make the Order. In 2009 Bernard Hogan-Howe, then Chief Constable of Merseyside, carried out a review of the arrangements for police air support for the Association of Chief Police Officers (ACPO). This identified scope to rationalise the current patchwork of provision and make savings, as well as ensuring a consistent level of air support across England and Wales. On the basis of that review, the National Police Air Service (NPAS) project has been led by Chief Constable Alex Marshall and has the full support of ACPO. The advantages of NPAS include the following: It will give all forces access to helicopter support 24 hours a day, 365 days year – in contrast to the current system which sees some force helicopters grounded for days a time while they are being repaired. 97 per cent of the population of England and Wales will remain within 20 minutes' flying time. It will also save the police service £15m per year when fully operational. Chief Constables of all forces in England and Wales have given their support to the proposal for NPAS. The vast majority of police authorities have also given support in principle. However, realisation of the full benefits available through NPAS depends upon the commitment of the whole of the police service in England and Wales. These proposals have been under discussion for over two years. It is time for the Police Service to move on from considering the principle and to focus on agreeing the details of a collaborative approach. This Order will ensure such a focus. While the Government has removed central targets from the police and is giving elected police and crime commissioners the power to set local strategic priorities, it has also introduced new powers under the Police Reform and Social Responsibility Act to ensure that forces work effectively together. This is the first use of new powers brought in by the Act. |
Theres not yet people on the pitch, but they seem to be gathering. |
I believe the Winsor report doesn't apply to Scotland.
Pity really, because if it did, I wonder if their crews would be classed as 'specialists' or not. Police-air-teams-copter-capture-in-hunt-for-countrys-fugitives AN elite cop chopper squad is the last line of defence against Scotland’s fugitive crooks. A fugitive thief cowers in long grass under cover of darkness — but thanks to Scotland’s elite police helicopter squad, there’s nowhere to hide. "Highly trained officers"... etc A quick google brought me to; e·lite/iˈlēt/Noun: 1.A group of people considered to be the best in a particular society or category, esp. because of their power, talent, or wealth. 2.A size of letter in typewriting, with 12 characters to the inch (about 4.7 to the centimeter). Maintaining the football references, Scotland 1 - England & Wales 2 |
Please can I clear something up. Who decides what is a specialist role or not?
According to at least one English Force; Specialist Roles A OCU-Operations Specialist - Recommendation All Force Traffic Units - Management Scrutiny Camera Enforcement Unit - Management Scrutiny Air Operations - Management Scrutiny Firearms Operations - Management Scrutiny Force Communication Centre - Management Scrutiny Stolen Vehicle Squad - Management Scrutiny Crash Investigation - Management Scrutiny Public Order Training - Management Scrutiny Driving School - Management Scrutiny OSU - Fixed Term 5 years Airport Firearms - Management Scrutiny Dog Training - Management Scrutiny Dog Handlers - Management Scrutiny Airport Police Unit - Management Scrutiny All other 'A' OCU posts - Management Scrutiny And another... In 1986, the Thames Valley Police Air Support Unit relocated to RAF Abingdon and was allocated a budget of 650 flying hours per annum. In 1988, it was recognised that the role of observer was a specialist skill and a team of fully trained, full-time dedicated observers was created. Within this section of the website you can find information on some of our specialist teams and units. Just click on 'Helicopter' And to add one of Wales'forces to the list; ■Operational Support Services North Wales Police includes the services of dedicated and specialist teams of officers. Operational Support provides tactical and operational response to incidents. These include: ■Operational Planning ■Armed Response ■Air Operations (Helicopter) ■Dogs ■Firearms Training ■Go Safe ■Custody |
And to top it all off, it appears that even the NPIA disagree with the specialist classification of the Observer role made by the Winsor report.
NPIA: Fitness Standards for Specialist Roles On the 18 January 2012 the Chief's Constables Council agreed to support new job related fitness tests for specialist posts which were developed by the Police Advisory Board for England and Wales Fitness Working Group. They include fitness standards for 13 specialist posts... Final report, dated 22 Jan 2012, here; https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q...RY_rtYfFMeXANg In Appendix 3 Specialist Policing Roles/Duties Definitions, we find Air Support(AS) p.s. Don't mention that the Winsor report itself currently refers to Air Support as a specialist role! |
This 'band of the super fit fixation is the sort of misguided leadership caused by a hierarchy with little of no real knowledge of policing as it is done.
Having arrived into fast track promotion direct from Uni or spent years wandering around Uni in the Job's time getting a Degree in Criminology as perceived by a non-police person they have this vision of fit young things hurtling around the streets [and running straight into trouble] as their perfect police officer. When crime was low and inevitably solved to a high percentage level it was undertaking by heavy smoking and drinking 'plodders' not fit whizz kids. They thought about their actions before they undertook them. No-one runs into an incident, you arrive at a walk gaining inteligence about the situation with every carefully placed pace. There are parallels. Air support gains most information in the hover at 2,000 feet not by whizzing in at 150mph to 200 feet. I believe you only need to look at the relative crime figures to gain an indication which system actually worked. |
on the other hand it could be that organisations have a duty of care over their staff now under H&S legislation (That was no where to be seen in the days PANews refers to) as part of the duty of care staff should be 'fit for purpose' any fitness test is just to show that the individual is physiologically fit enough not physically fit enough for duty.
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Why does an Air Observer ( Hate that description - they do far far more than just "observe" ) need to be fitter than a Police Dog Handler ?
http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d1.../Coconutty.jpg |
Wagging finger - it's not really duty of care, as that implies that someone does actually care - it is ass covering so you can't sue them if you have a heart attack during the course of your duties.
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If there was a real duty of care they would ensure that the police officers they employ are 'fit for purpose' - they would not be employing people physically unable to look after themselves. To short, too weak etc. to look after themselves so they need to supply CS gas and tasers to acheive basic defence ..... and then they whinge when that provision goes wrong and the crims get more injuries than a simple tustle would have created.
All their theorising and PC activities, often promoted by political motives, fails to cover the most basic of H&S considerations. |
Ah but then you fall foul of discrimination against those who are too small, weak etc so you can't win:ugh:
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Helinut,
Thanks for the email, your supposition was correct. Will reply shortly and no doubt we can sort something out. :) Whilst I don't think that it's necessarily a deliberate strategy, I have no doubt that they realise it's a likely eventuality, and will undoubtedly be happy when it happens, as it will make life much easier. That is unless everyone goes, which as already alluded to by others, is almost certain to happen in 2016, if not before, should Mr Winsor get his way. Is half a dozen or so civilian observers enough to run NPAS? D-Day is fast approaching in the South East, and management are obviously concerned that people will vote with their feet, because they've now stated that they will not allow people to leave for other posts, pending the move to NPAS in October! Funny how this paragraph is in contradiction with the first. It's also funny that people who think they have the best job in the police are wanting to leave! Only a few months to go and there's no information, let alone decisions, regarding aircraft, staffing and operational hours. Lots of "preferred options" and "considerations" but nothing hard and fast. Without wishing to be emotive, it's not just air operations they're playing with, it's people's lives. WP |
Windle, spotted an error in your post......you wrote 'D Day' when I'm sure you ment 'Dunkirk'!!
The first D Day for us in the SE was April 1st but the convoy hadn't set off due to the manifest being unready. |
Windle, spotted an error in your post......you wrote 'D Day' when I'm sure you ment 'Dunkirk'!! Strangely, just as I was laughing at your post I got a text from someone that said..."Half a league, half a league, half a league onward." |
I have a colleague who's father runs a brewery, not a big one, but a brewery nonetheless. Over the years he has organised some really good piss ups, and that got me to wondering whether the NPIA should have employed him? :E
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Vera, do you not know anything???
It is NPIA policy not to employ anyone who actually knows what they are talking about!! This way, they can not only charge you for the work they did but for all the updates, upgrades, mods and fixes needed to put the original product into a condition where it actually does what it was supposed to do in the first place. You want proof? - look at Airborne Airwave :ugh: |
Airborne Airwave .... upgrades, mods and fixes needed to put the original product into a condition where it actually does what it was supposed to do in the first place..... :oh: |
Noticed this on the news this morning...
http://i52.photobucket.com/albums/g1.../DSCF1194a.jpg ...and wondered why the Chief Constable of South Yorkshire Police would have a model of an EC145 in his office :confused: (remove the 'a' in the pics filename for bigger shot) |
BBC News - South Yorkshire Police to keep force helicopter
13 April 2012 Last updated at 17:00 South Yorkshire Police to keep force helicopter Plans for South Yorkshire Police to keep its own helicopter for use during peak times have been approved. The force will use the National Police Air Service (NPAS) for Wakefield, North Derbyshire and Humberside outside of peak hours. Last year it was announced that NPAS would be introduced, meaning regional forces shared helicopters. A South Yorkshire Police Authority spokesperson said the local service was critical to maintaining response times. The South Yorkshire police helicopter was introduced in 1997 and flies about 1,200 hours a year at a cost of £1.68m. Under the new plans, the force's helicopter would be available for use for 10 hours a day. Sean Wright, deputy chairman for the authority said: "We've done an analysis of when the helicopter flies and we've identified peak deployment periods. "We'll be looking at how we can best maintain response times to deliver a police air support service at peak periods." The government said the introduction of the national service would see the number of police air units across England and Wales cut from 32 to 22. |
Just remind me, how is this going to save money...............?:mad:
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Now lets take a distorted view on this pyrric victory for common sense over government [and ACPO] edict achieved by the South Yorkshire Police Authority.
Reconvene the talks in a couple of years from now and ...... ooer..... South Yorkshire Police Authority will not turn up to the table..... There may be some common sense and cost savings to be made from this arrangement and I would not expect to be party to them. Perhaps there is something to be said for a peak time resource in Yorkshire that does not come directly out of the NPAS coffers and perhaps 23 is not the right number after all [only time and experience will confirm that] but my bet is that this deal is not set in stone. What is? and another thing on this victory. If this is going to be a 10 hours a day peak requirement operation that potentially means the SYPASU crews are on near permanent late/half nights shift duties. |
Thats assuming there are any constable observers left once Windsor 2 has its wicked way. I cant think of many who would be prepared to accept the loss of "specialist skills" payment...
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The other element so the South Yorks "victory" is that the a/c provision is only for 6 years..!
After that, no helicopter..!! |
6 Years?
Nice, perhaps that is an indication to the timescale for complete and utter civilianisation of police air operations, run by a private company that is subject to the vagaries of the stock market etc and does not have to report to the taxpayer.
RIP. :{ |
Haha. Yes indeed. In fact my business plan is written to set up the company. I just need some MONEY..!!
"Air support provided by the hour. A/C crewed by REAL (retired) ex police air observers." "no need for a pesky PAOC, pilot contracts or engineering. Prevent your force from being sued by letting us search (unsuccessfully) for your missing persons. Half the cost of running your own unit". Privatisation. It's the Tory way. :cool: |
Just remind me, how is this going to save money and they know that, but have allowed common sense and an appreciation of just how valuable their asset is, to prevail :D Then again, I can't remember hearing ANYONE saying they have been convinced that they will save any money under NPAS, at least not for many years, if at all. :hmm: It all seems to have moved on from the original "Improved service at a reduced cost", to a Dictated service at an unknown cost - which could even be higher than the Pre-NPAS cost. :ugh: http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d1.../Coconutty.jpg |
I doubt that the arrangements made by South Yorkshire to retain their aircraft will save them any money at all Option 3 (10hrs per day own a/c) = 1.686 million pounds Current cost of running own unit = 1.68 million pounds.. So the NPAS "deal" they have struck actually costs 6000 pounds per year MORE For the 6K extra they get the privilege of only using the a/c that they OWN for ten hours a day, lose half their pilots, all their engineers, and half their cops..:D Oh yes but they get 24 hr cover from NPAS.. (ah but they are in a mutual aid consortium already where they are provided with..... yes you guessed it.. 24hr cover...!!! ) So the sum total of the gains from joining NPAS = zero..:ok: |
Not strictly true
Morris1 wrote
So the sum total of the gains from joining NPAS = zero.. I am glad I don't work at SYP, if they are covering 'Peak deployment' then it's no social life, no home life..........sounds like fun. := |
I am glad I don't work at SYP, if they are covering 'Peak deployment' then it's no social life, no home life..........sounds like fun. |
Almost sounds perfect to me, single shift, four on, four off. Where do I sign up?
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Originally Posted by timex
(Post 7143280)
I am glad I don't work at SYP, if they are covering 'Peak deployment' then it's no social life, no home life..........sounds like fun. |
Have NPAS started the redundancy process in SYP already?
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