Blue times at ORNGE
 

Minister sees red as CEO rakes in the green; locals jaded over suspicions of golden parachute. http://www.idlethumbs.net/forums/ima.../getmecoat.gif

ORNGE spinoff lands rich payout from same firm that sold Ontario its air ambulances

Shortage of paramedics leaves ORNGE helicopter idle

ORNGE ordered to open books by health minister

ORNGE president was paid $1.4 million per year

Why was ORNGE chopper delayed 44 minutes as cyclist lay dying in rural hospital?

Nothing like competition to make for better service....oh...sorry....there is no competition in Ontario is there?:=

This comes as no surprise. A friend of mine who works there told me earler this year that there were problems and a high staff turnover. She also said the new AW-139s are bigger and more expensive than necessary. 80% of the flights are one patient hospital to hospital transfers and most of the emergency calls involve only one patient. The 139s are equipped for 2 patients - most of the time unnecessary.

I'm sure their are plenty of Bell 206 operators in the US who would show how to do it cheaply.:ugh::ugh:

From the sounds of it SM....one could do it cheaper using any aircraft including the 139....if the operation was confronted with a need to be competitive, meet customer needs, and face dissolution if their business model failed. When one achieves "Non-Profit" status and is funded by Government....is it any surprise "efficiency" and "Quality of service" become secondary concerns and Management compensation, perks, and classy office buildings become the priority!

SM....if they showed up when needed by the injured...it would be an improvement. Just how can you ignore the only EMS service being out of service for lack of Medical crew on a frequent basis?

That is sheer incompetence pesonified!

Smart assed comments like yours don't add to the discussion SM!

Senior Pilot....as I can not withstand responding to Shell Management when he makes such posts.....I will unilaterally end such temptation and put him back on "Ignore" as I have done on and off over the past couple of years.

interesting choice
 

I take it that if SM was injured somewhere he would choose to have a $20 milliion dollar aircraft sitting far away and not responding rather than a 206 sitting at the scene of his accident with a competent crew ready to transport him to a higher level of care.


As for my current program, we launch on standby. We launch having no idea how the patient will pay for the service. We do not discriminate our services based on the patients ability to pay but rather on their urgent need for the highest level of professional care. We do all of this in an EC145 or an A-Star or whatever the aircraft is that is closest to the need. If our competition is closer, they get the call. I don't think a patient lying at the side of the road has ever said he would rather wait for a BK.


The CEO of the company gets paid very well but he also manages over 400 helicopters and airplanes and the crews and staff to keep the organization running as smoothly as possible. All of this across the entire country. The task of maintaining the aircraft, training the crews, dealing with the FAA etc. would be overwhelming to most people. I am certain that his pay per paitient served is vastly lower than that paid to a government program administrator.


Government run programs are fraught with waste. The article on Ornge is very telling about the incredible amount of waste in the system and then the problems of dealing with the waste. A 139 to do what an AStar could easily do? Yeah, then you start to hear screaming about the waste of money over launching on standby. The care of the patient is beng dictated by the cost of the response. What is the blade hour cost of a 139 compared to an AStar? $10,000 per hour compared to $1500? A government run program like this one is best described in the old adage, "What is the definition of an elephant? A mouse built to government specifications".


So in the final analysis, how is the patient better served? When you are the patient, what would you rather have, a helicopter enroute or some bureaucrat calculating the cost of the launch and deciding you are not worth it?

Cheers and Merry Chirstmas

"Non-profit" organizations are a red flag to me, having done the international UN thing. All the non-profits drove Range Rovers, all the for-profit drove Nissans.

STARS in Calgary, now trying to expand to the rest of Canada, is another non-profit that the people funding should be questioning. They too bought several AW139's, maybe 5-6 years ago. Every year I see all their pilots at NJ for recurrent training. And they haven't flown one hour with their 139's yet, we'll see if it happens in 2012. "Non-profit" money down the toilet, but a very well compensated executive.

I feel badly for Agusta. Good product besmirched by association to sad sack operators. What were they thinking throwing in with that slimy ORNGE bunch anyway?

grumpytroll... :D:D:D

Well said.

Sasless

I'm with you, but leave him "Un-ignored" just so I can laugh at his stupidity and complete lack of understanding of the industry as a whole.

Unless they were paying too much for the 139s and the executives salaries that they decided to try and short change the paramedics, therefore it would be related to the helicopter :eek:

It looks to be a clear need for a cost vs benefit analysis. If we compare having a helicopter that flies with lower DOCs and can fly 70% of the missions to a helicopter that can fly 90% of the missions but has a cost that drives the operation out of business, the helicopter with the lower DOCs will win out every time. If sufficient funds are available in a country to pay to send out an Agusta 139 for every medevac mission then I say great, buy Agusta 139s. If the market can only support Astars or 407s then go with the Astars or 407s and send ground ambulances on missions they can't support. Having cheaper medevac helicopters available on a lower percentage of missions is far better than having no helicopters available due to their cost of operation.

tottigol, not necessarily, if the market will support a more expensive helicopter then go with the better helicopter. The thing is, I do not see why I would want to go with one of the most expensive helicopters on the market when a less expensive helicopter will safely support most of the missions. Especially if that higher expense will play a factor in driving the operator out of the market. Another way of looking at it would be why not fly more Agusta Grands or Bell 429s for the same price as buying and operating a lower number of 139s?

Merry Christmas to you as well!

and furthermore..
 

Dear Tott, What is a CLA? Is that some sort of a pilots license? I am honored that you took the time to look me up...somewhere. For the record though, I have an ATP with current first class medical. I am writing this witty response from my current EMS base, BK outside the door, med crew at the ready, blue suit zipped up tight. ( i do chuckle and wonder what is meant by a "hint" of renewal)

I gather you take alot of this ORNGE stuff personally. Sorry for that. No one has questioned the safety or competence of the crews (athough you imply that we here in the states should feel honored to fall under your close scrutiny). I have read many fine articles about the program in professional journals and am very impressed. The paint job is wonderful.

Clearly from the information provided on this thread, the problems are of a financial nature. In is ironic that, as your comments point out, the apparent weakness you see in the US system is also financial but in a different direction. You don't feel that any helicopter other that something as grand as the 139 should ever be considered for EMS under any circumstances. I, of course, disagree. Instead of beating up the yanks as part of your argument, why not just admit that there is a happy place in the middle of all of this for everyone? There is no point in repeating the logical explanation provided by HueyDog or Best of the West.

Here is my final take of the subject. Ornge needs to gets its priorities straight and its financial house in order so the patients and taxpayers can get the service they deserve. It has nothing to do with the pilots, their skills, training or competence. I hope thats not too controversial.

I copied this statement from one of the stories. if this doesn't make you shake your head then nothing will. Dr. Mazza's salary, 1.6 million per year. Pretty good for a non-profit. He is now on medical leave. This entire story is quite shocking all the way around.


MacDonald emailed the Star Monday to cancel a scheduled interview with ORNGE’s president Chris Mazza, saying that “we are not satisfied that the Star intends to fairly and responsibly report on ORNGE.” MacDonald’s email came the day the Star published a story revealing that a group of ORNGE executives, including Mazza, work for a for-profit consulting company that has a $6.7 million contract to provide marketing services for AgustaWestland, the company that sold 10 helicopters to ORNGE for $120 million.


Cheers

I believe the criteria
 

to dispatch the helicopter was met by the paramedics on scene doing so at 3:41PM. Who else is going to asses the victim/patient and make that decision?

Sounds like awkward communications, a poorly defined and/or implemented policy with regards not wasting money through unnecessary dispatch, or both, got in the way.

Kind of typical when a business upgrades to larger equipment then finds out it really does cost more, most likely a lot more in this case.

All the concern about flying in known icing is a bit overblown. Helicopters and airplanes do not belong in icing conditions and the objective on noticing it is to get out of it, not continue to wallow in its presence. As a matter of safety having anti-ice capability is understandable, but probably simply not worth it if the cost makes the overall operation financially unsustainable. Better to have some capability, than none.

To your respective neutral corners guys.....it is Canada...not the USA. It is a discussion about one particular EMS operation...a non-profit organization funded by the Government.

The issues that need discussing are simple....and pertain to the particular operation, its business model, the quality of service, the compensation of its executives, the fact those in charge of the non-profit have spun off into other for gain operations on the back of the Non-Profit, taken up a very cozy relationship with the Aircraft Maker that they bought some very expensive helicopters from. Now when the spotlight is placed squarely upon those folks by the media....the government then gets concerned as they are about to made to look like Fools for letting this thing get out of hand. The CEO does a runner for "medical reasons" and the PR folks say the Media cannot be trusted to make a fair and impartial report and refuses to discuss the situation.

Lets stick to this for a while....as it has the potential to be a very good expose' of public corruption, fraud, bribery, and how not to run an EMS operation even when you cannot lose money no matter how incompetent you are so long as your supporter (in this case the Taxpayers of Ontario ) turns a blind eye to the whole thing.

One could not make up a TV show with a plot as good as this one is going to turn out to be!

I'll ask a rhetorical question.....who was/is going to gain from the re-sale of the 139's when it is determined they could not afford the cost to operate the aircraft? Where overseas (think Middle East) were these things going to wind up and who would have coordinated the deal? Whose pockets were going to get fattened from Consulting Fees, Commissions, and Bonuses?

As an old Fraud Investigator for the US Navy....."Follow the Money!"

Where was it supposed to go....and where did it actually go...and who had the control of the process to make that diversion happen?

If it quacks like a Duck, waddles like a Duck, swims like a Duck....it might just be a Duck!

Ornge!
 

Our system has been destroyed.Ornge came in 2006 and everything has been going down since.We are a model of inefficiency.The AW139 is a non sense for an air ambulance,we burn 60% more fuel,the level of maintenance is asthonishing,we need sometimes 3 aircraft's to get one serviceable,it is completely unsustainable with the budget cut who will come during the next 5 years.At the end,we do less than before and it all comes from Ornge:ugh:The FIPS never worked and the slip ring failure we had could have killed everybody on board.There is nothing good of having an AW139 for an Air Ambulance

Arcal - The AW139 is actually a decent EMS helo, IF the operation warrants it. There are 139s operating in Italy, Saudi Arabia, Australia, Spain and many other countries. Its all about horses for courses and it seems from the newspaper articles there was a lot of kickbacks to the CEO so that makes me wonder if the only reason they got the 139s was because of the lining of his pocket albeit through his other companies.

BOTW

Buy Six Pilatus Airplanes and get a $343,000 donation to your operation....not a bad deal.

Pilatus gets paid full price on the aircraft, rebates the donation money, gets a tax deduction for charitable giving....I wonder if any of the other competitors were offered that deal/offer/idea?

Now if I wuz looking into this outfit's actions....I would be asking Pilatus to give me the details of their corporate charitable giving for the past few years. Perhaps they do this on a regular basis and this is not a one off.

Also noted Agusta-Westland partnered with Ornge in a $250,000 Endowment Fund for Aboriginal Students at Confederation College.

Nice of these Aerospace companies to support their customers this way. All very Arms Length transactions I am sure.

How come there is no "A" in ORNGE

EMS a139
 

I disagree,the 139 is used by state in this countries who are ready to spend the money for a multipurpose aircraft doing EMS,Police,SAR,etc.The operating cost is crazy there is way better way to use an EMS aircraft who do not have unlimited funding. The Italian use it for EMS,but I don't know how they manage the finance.
The A was removed to differentiate the name with those existing,but some are saying it is for .....:Daccountability....

Apparently, A for A$$hole had previously been assigned...

I especially like the part about Agusta's $6.7 million kickback directly into the ORNGE CEO's pockets. Maybe Sikorsky was too bound by either honor or FCPA and lost out on the bidding for the 20 new helicopters. And what's with all the cascading shell companies financed by the public purse?

Canada News: ORNGE admits secrecy surrounding exec

Malabo, I was wondering the same thing. It looks like this was a deliberate attempt at hiding information and connections.

Yes,it was! Someone is trying to save his job and do damage control.The all setup was done to create an empire using the Air Ambulance as platform to sell themselves and make a lots of money.The Air Ambulance has been destroyed and nobody wants to use it because the dispatch it taking so much time to approve a flight.It is a disfunctional system.The 139 is unsustainable for the future and keeping it will be a gigantic mistake with reduction of service due to high cost.

close "A"ccountability, Ornge has lots of the other "A" word

more ornge juice
 

Toronto News: ORNGE air ambulance design risky to patients, top doctor discovers - thestar.com


cheers

Ornge must have made a substantial mess up of their research and ordering if the 139 cabin is cramped compared to the 76 cabin, and takes longer to load a patient.

Perhaps if they had asked other 139 Medevac operators for advice, they would have a better all-round machine than the heap of :mad: they have now.

There are enough Medevac 139's around that any bugs with the interiors have been worked out of them by now.

Research research research people.

Of course, having the bosses go and have a look at the thing before now would have been a good idea too!!!!! :ugh:

Unfortunately, Agusta, as with most OEM's, will gie the Customer what they order, not necessarily what they need. Big difference.

There are some glaring ommissions from their aircraft (slump pads for soft terrain ops for instance) that should have been a part of the basic order for the machines operating in the environment in which they do.

My 2 cents

ORNGE subject to police investigation
 

The Criminal Investigators should have been involved from the very start of the Audit......as Auditors are not good Cops....but with some encouragement and advice on what to look for....they do very good work that successful prosecutions can be based upon.

The Auditors lay out what happened, how it happened, and who fingers are on the process. The Investigator then sorts out who did what and why.

When the Cops get to the weak link...the lowest ranking guy with the most to lose for the least gain.....and offer to trade time behind bars for cooperation....this Ornge is going to get peeled wide open!

Agusta might gird their loins as well.....allegations of Bribery when plastered all over the News Media stinks!

Investigation at ORNGE yielding results....Follow the Money!
 

Tis beginning to look like 6.7 Million Dollars may have been in form of a Kickback for purchase of some helicopters if one believes the latest report on the ORNGE Investigation.

As I have said in the past....."Follow the Money!"

I shall ask the question.....who can provide the answer?

Does Agusta, Agusta-Westland, have the ability in-house to do market research contracted to ORNGE? Have they done market research in the past and are they now doing the same kind of research they contracted for with ORNGE?

Did Agusta pay a fair price for the product(s) specified in the contract between the parties (Agusta and ORNGE)?



Was the performance on the contract monitored by Agusta Officials to ensure timely, accurate, and substantive performance by the contractor?

Were the products, reports, and requirements to measure the Contractors performance detailed in any sort of Contract Specification Document?

What was the Contract Specifications?

Who at Agusta was directly responsible for administering the ORNGE Contract?

How was payment made to the Contractor....Single Payment Lump Sum in advance or by installments? What documentation did ORNGE provide Agusta to certify performance? Who submitted it....who approved it?

I loved doing Fraud and Bribery Investigations!

Asking all those kinds of questions to Business Executives/Government Employees could be so much fun as the answers sometimes could be quite entertaining especially when it involved their trying to pull a Rabbit out of a hat.

They are like a Dog eating a Blanket....you start pulling on a single thread....and in time the whole thing unravels! When the Prosecutors and Investigators start offering Plea Bargains to the lesser involved folks the rate of progress really picks up. It sounds as if they are getting to that point in the investigation. There are enough leads to follow that something big will get kicked loose at the top of the hill and start rolling before long....just like a snowball off a roof.


Canada News: ORNGE execs

Sounds like a familiar refrain.....Liberals in Government running from Sun Light!


http://www.ontariopc.com/media/2012/...ge-scandal.pdf

The Ornge mess!!
 

Guys,
Nobody has any doubts that it is a kickback:mad:.When you work for this system,you know that this medical interior is a disaster after seeing it for 5 minutes.Completely inefficient and way to heavy.The aircraft is always above 6400kg and the operating cost is gone kill this operation.Ornge should have been shut down completely! Instead, it is bad organization with no aviation knowledge and lots of people with very high salaries.How Ornge could provide any services to Agusta when they do not know what is an helicopter.Everybody is disgust and moral is low.That's the reality.:(

Mazza & Bartolotta: "Move along, nothing to see here"

http://www.lewrockwell.com/grigg/2Frank_Drebin.jpg

Mazza: ORNGE scandal was "unfortunate"

Bartolotta: Va fa napole

Some interesting questions are begged after reading the two articles.

The aircraft were sold to ORNGE "below market", ORNGE then asked for Mods that were not covered in the original purchase price and they were sold at a deep discount, and when asked by ORNGE AW donated 2% of total sales as a charitable donation to be used to underwrite a Video Production? Did I read that right? Why the below market and deep discount then the donation and the consultancy contract valued at Six Million Dollars? Why all this favored treatment of ORNGE by AW? Why the MSA contract that AW had the ability to do in-house....they do have a very effective marketing staff as the 139 is supposed to be the best selling machine in its class. Why ORNGE as there are other very capable Medical Interior builders that have done hundreds upon hundreds of interiors?

ORNGE delivered some or was it none of the Deliverables on the Consulting Contract....I think I read it both ways in Bartolotta's article.

I would love to be doing the investigation...there is so much dirt to be sifted through and questions to be asked..... it would be great fun watching the principals in their thousand dollar suits trying to answer them. I bet there would be some sweaty armpits before it was over!

I have some old NCIS buddies that would be great partners in a consultancy agreement with the Ontario government....and having some spare time on our hands all of us being retired now....we would enjoy a trip north!

Whether there was a criminal conspiracy between AW and ORNGE or not will have to be determined by the Canadian Authorities....but for sure the whole deal smells! The ol' Sniff Test has got them already....how bad it gets is anyone's guess.

There is a movie in this....as it has all the ingredients for a good one...Money, corruption, sex, death, helicopters, big business, government money, and politicians, whistleblowers!

Whatever was the result of the Investigations at Ornge....all the Fraud and such that was alleged and all? All that shake out yet?

Is this one and the same operation:

http://www.pprune.org/rotorheads/516...ter-crash.html

yes.......

From Blue to Red....with the payment of Bonuses and defaulted Loans.

The Investigation continues and some suggestion there may be Criminal Charges brought against the former Senior Management Staff.

Ornge investigation may take another year, says OPP - Toronto - CBC News

ORNGE investigation: Whistle-blower suspended after testifying at probe | Toronto Star

Am I the only one who thinks the investigation and the crash might be linked?

Probably!

The fact it was one of the very early A Model 76's....with just Phase II Hamilton Standard SAS is probably far more an issue than the financial problems/management issues that were the focus of the investigation.

There is new management in place who are working to fix the old problems....so finding a direct link between all those issues and this tragedy are pretty slim if existent at all.

If there is a mechanical failure found that could be blamed on the turmoil then maybe.

But....way too soon to begin to make any guesses as to what the cause(s) of the crash might be.

Let's wait to see what the Investigation turns up and is reported to the Public.

I am 100% in agreement with SAS. It would be a monumentous stretch to link these two issues.

As far as the 76A's...they have done the job successfully for decades but like any good tool, they can be unforgiving.

================

Regarding this whole thread: another example of a customer (Ontario Ministry of Health/Ornge) who feels after a period of time that they can better manage all that money they are giving to the helicopter operator.

They aren't the first that even I have seen in my limited experience. They won't be that last. I would never, as a helicopter pilot, decide that I was capable of managing a hospital or running the operations of an emergency room, or of running a lumber mill, and the list goes on.

The people who are used to holding the purse strings and being at the top of their respective game will inevitably think they know better, invest, and then muck it up. The exceptions are notable for their rarity.