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Mid-Air Collision Over New York.
Reuters reporting 2 helicopters collided near the Hudson River in New Jersey .Still only ticker on Sky News at 1742 local London time .
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Light aircraft and helicopter collide over Hudson River, 8-8-2009
Breaking news on Sky, two helicopters in mid-air collision in New Jersey near the Hudson River. One may be a light aircraft but details sketchy at the moment.
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BBC website reports light aircraft and helicopter colliding..
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From NY1:
NY1 | 24 Hour Local News | Top Stories | At Least One Dead In Air Crash Over Hudson River
Sources tell NY1 that at least one person has died after a helicopter collided into a small plane and fell into the Hudson River near 14th Street in Manhattan. Authorities say the debris fell into the water and the river's New Jersey shore. Many shocked onlookers heard a loud noise. One onlooker named Bo, who saw the crash from a roof deck by Christopher Street, said that he saw a black helicopter and a white and red biplane collided mid-air, and a wing separated from the body of the plane. According to Bo, both aircrafts "spiralled down" and immediately submerged under water. Sources tell NY1 that the aircraft may have taken off from Teterboro Airport. A NY1 crew is on the scene and will continue to have live reports throughout the day |
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One survivor was rescued by city fire crews so far.
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CNN & Fox saying that the Helicopter belonged to Liberty Helicopters.
AP reports aircraft where an AStar and a PA32 Cherokee Six. :sad: |
Folks,
Not Good news, I flew with Liberty helicopters 3 years ago. Joel |
Accident Heli/small aircraft
Seems to have been a Tour Helicopter with 6 onboard and light aircraft maybe with two.No debris on the surface,divers in the water.
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NY major Bloomberg mentioned that eyewitnesses reported that the airplane ran into the back of the helicopter... but obviously that is not confirmed.
Bloomberg himself btw. is a helicopter pilot himself, flying his Augusta Grand in and out of the city himself. |
The Mayor gave the best report out of everyone, and resisted the hysteria about closing the Hudson River Corridor as promoted by CNN.
Sadly the report is that only two bodies have been recovered so far putting doubt on the earlier announcements that there was a survivor. Italian family of 5 + pilot in Liberty Helicopter, and 3 in the Piper (Saratoga?), one a child. Divers have located one wreckage believed possibly to be that of the helicopter. No longer a rescue operation, but a salvage operation being performed by NYPD divers. Being my local neck of the woods, and having flown several times in the corridor I can attest to the alertness and situational awareness particularly of the helicopter pilots in the corridor. Sadly CNN's "resident expert" who has only ever flown above the corridor helped fuel incorrect hysteria about how congested he believed the space to be just because it is under busy airspace. Glad I cancelled my flight today. North of the corridor though would have had a concerned Mrs B at home. Thoughts go out to those involved and our fellow rotorheads who fly in the area. |
No doubt we will get the full story from Bronx who may even have been involved?
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NYC Mayor Bloomberg, press conference Hudson mid-air
The Mayor reports a mid-air collision over Hudson, Jersey side off pier 40, appx 14th street, between Piper PA32 and tour copter. Pilot and two pax on fixed wing, departed Teterboro and headed south over Hudson in vfr corridor. Copter just departed 30th street heliport with pilot and five Italian tourists. Aircraft collided just minutes before noon local time. Both aircraft suffered damage in the air and shed pieces, then plunged into river. No survivors and rescue is now deemed recovery.
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Just heard the Borough President of Manhattan call for more regulations reguarding flying over NYC. Says 'bus drivers have more regulations than pilots....'
He said it with a straight face too. |
If there was another case area for ADS-B implementation, then the NYC VFR area would be it.
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Another sad day of 2009 aviation.
Thoughts goes to those left behind. |
That still photograph is just horrific, i am in NYC at the moment and was thinking about taking a flight.
Condolences to the families involved, very tragic indeed. |
There will probably be a long series of people clamoring for more restrictions on general aviation around NYC. There always is after an accident. Never mind that the number of accidents in the air around NYC is vanishingly small compared to the number of flights.
Ignorance may be bliss for the person afflicted with it, but it can be a serious headache for everyone else. |
Fortunately Bloomberg, the mayor, is a private pilot and is apparently a cooler head. He is not calling for closure of the corridor.
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Are the helicopters under positive control ? Same freq. as the corridor ?
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How did we ever exist without it?
There are three things here, that need to be installed in every aircraft for hire;
TCAS, TCAS, and TCAS. |
Condolences :( Always afraid of hitting other aircraft when I fly around corridors, tho ATC would monitor it with transponder codes, it still doesnt help at the speeds we fly :/
Interesting that the pic shows the Left Main Gear is extended on the Piper Saratoga ... I wonder if it had problems? Also the mast snapped off below the MRH on the Astar - must have been a high side knock to shear off at that point there with rotor still relatively intact. :ooh: Anyway, not guessing, just wondering. KP |
or ADS-B? we are waiting in Australia for this...
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In the VFR corridor, everyone is supposed to be on the same freq but it is NOT class B airspace and no, not directed by ATC.
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the Piper was not a for hire airplane and this is a single accident, not a frequent event. Making rules based on single events is overkill.
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Can anyone fill us in on what kind of procedures are in place for this airspace?
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I flew here once. The restictions I remember for (for our North to South transit) "stay over the river, not above 800'".
Also 'around the lady' not below 1500'. IIRC We stuck to them |
JFK, LGA, EWR airports are extremely busy with airliner traffic. Tetorboro, White Plains and god knows what else GA-wise, only add to a barely manageable workload for ATC in the greater New York control area.
The approach corridors over the city are uber-crowded with a precarious mix of heavy jets arriving from all parts of the planet, and green, well-moneyed weekend hobby pilots. I’m only surprised this didn’t happen sooner. |
you can't avoid what you can't see. The corridor is narrow so likely no signif bank angles to clear the area., Reports now say the Piper hit the helicopter with the right wing. The helicopter was in a blind spot for the Piper and behind the helicopter the helicopter pilot couldn't see it.,
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More's the reason to make New York a TCAS mandatory airspace.
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Single accident but perhaps some lessons for future
As one who lives in Manhattan and can see the heli and small fixed wing traffic fly the Hudson VFR corridor, I must say in my opinion we here in NYC have been lucky until today. There is a lot of sightseeing tour traffic with heli tours being offered by many operators: NY Tours, All New York Tours, New York City Tours, US Helicopter, Liberty Helicopters, New York Helicopter, Viatour; are but some of the listings.
If the tour heli lifted off of the 30th street heliport and moved to the westside of the river and headed south while climbing, then the piper also headed south on the suggested west side of the river flying below the max altitude may not have seen him climbing from below his cowling until too late. Some witnesses say the piper banked at the last minute, a left?, exposing his right wing to the blades of the climbing chopper? Early speculation, but points out the weakness of voluntary radio position reports while in the corridor as VFR may not have been sufficient in this set of circumstances, as piper pilot may never have seen heli below and was approaching the climbing heli from above and behind at a greater speed. I suggest three possibilities: required radio position w/ alt and speed reports at waypoints, required freq monitoring with check in to corridor, and, precise and set tour heli routes well designed with no corners to be cut; for discussion. Harbor traffic has required radio contact and they are going 10-20 knots not 140 knots. |
It is a VFR corridor and pilots are expected to broadcast position, direction and altitude. But no, they are not in contact necessarily with ATC.
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wileydog3
you can't avoid what you can't see. The corridor is narrow so likely no signif bank angles to clear the area., Reports now say the Piper hit the helicopter with the right wing. The helicopter was in a blind spot for the Piper and behind the helicopter the helicopter pilot couldn't see it., |
Spaceage,
Yes. ADS-B can do this,and so many other things.But to make the most you need both 'in' and 'out', and the latter seems to be on the back-burner. I saw Blomburg in action, and was impressed. He seemed to do it without any notes.Can't imagine either Mayor of London being that good Keith |
I am in favor of regulating this airspace, calling for a tight ATC clearance for this area...however special radar (to the ground) remote com outlets, and more controllers would be required.
I've flown over this area in airliners (as pilot) and shaken my head at the corridor concept. There is a similiar corridor over the top of KLAX and I flew there one time and swore never to do it again. (small plane) as a former cfiimei and current airline pilot, corridors scare the hell out of me. I do agree that all commercial traffic should have TCAS and all planes should have mode c transponders ON. I also encourage all pilots to have all lights on in the daytime as well as night to enhance collision avoidance. and for descending low wing planes, always CLEAR below before the descent...often overlooked. |
Good thing Bloomberg is Mayor and not BuggSmasher.
and green, well-moneyed weekend hobby pilots. This just in.. because of a fatal accident in NY this past week involving a woman with kids, the State is enacting legislation that forbids women with children driving southbound. No accident reported north bound so they can continue to drive northbound. |
PTH - You need to get out more, it is not that bad
This is a topic I can comment on as I live in the area and fly the corridor.
I won't fly the corridor on the weekend, but then I avoid any sight seeing flying on VFR weekends. If you look at mid air stats the majority occur around an airport on a VFR day, almost always on weekends. ASF has a really good report on this. It really amazes me how many supposed pilots on here are yelling ban it. In the mega millions of commercial movements in the NYC in the last 50 years how many collisions between GA VFR aircraft and anything but an apartment building? TCAS - sounds fine except without regular training and pilot proficiency it is not good. (TCAS in helicopters in this airspace I suspect would be quickly turned off) I seem to remember something about that a few years back in Überlingen? Not to mention dumping a lot of cost on GA. Make it so expensive no one can fly, then you will never have a mid air. Sort of like what they are doing in Europe. Sad to see supposed professional pilots shooting off like politicians. 20driver |
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