diethelm: why?
LT is a banker (with a B);) and her sole purpose during this evolution was to asset strip the company and make a killing. It's stuck in a rut and she's struggling to turn it round. That's why she's now trying to offload it quickly to any buyer for any price.
Don't for one millisecond believe the temptress is actually interested in helicopters :rolleyes:
Life's a bitch......and then you work for one:eek:

Mmmm ...

....... Life's a bitch......and then you work for one ....

I like that ... very catchy .... :ok:

catchy
 

I wonder if she'll include that line in her latest card, cant wait for this years outfit :E

Coupling:

I don't know her, never met her but I am in the same business as she is. If she simply wanted to strip it, she would have never put the money in without first running it through a chapter 11. In that scenario, the prior owners would have been much more marginalized, the past debt wiped out and the assets acquired at a fraction of the cost (think GM). That is what I would have done and was clearly the plan of all other interested parties.

My bet is that she thought she could make a killing without financially re-structuring it through BK but the capital structure she inherited, combined with what would objectively appear to be a lack of consistent competent management, has at best made it a bad deal. The structure of her deal made it clear from the beginning that she had to be in it for the long haul. The basis of her transaction made it impossible to simply "asset strip the company and make a killing."

I don't know if she is now trying to sell it or not but if she was out to make a quick buck, she would not still own it 5.5 years and 100 mil after her July 2005 acquisition.

You are correct in the fact that it is stuck in a rut and has not gotten any better since the Patriarch ownership, but all the rest of us who had interest, certainly would have been much tougher with respect to the terms of the original purchase. Absent a miracle of orders and good management, history will most likely show her assumptions were wrong, but she committed when the rest of the interested parties said no thanks on those terms.

Still love the product, and would love to see it thrive as with volume and great management, it could clearly be manufactured and supported at much lower costs.

The 902 is doomed. Its the illigitimate child of two uncaring parents: LT and Joep. It's part built all over the place and brought together somewhere else. There is a disconnect between the OEM and EASA QA. Parts are forever slipping through the airworthiness checks and measures (paperwork not quality). The beast itself is nothing revolutionary. Hiding the fan at the back inside the tail cone has in fact reduced its aerodynamic performance and increased its payload. It's still exposed to the idiosyncracies of the dreaded TR failure - so what was the point. [Unless of course you use the monotonous argument that it's safer to operate around in a confined space because the spinner is missing].
I for one actually see it now as looking tired and awkward. The 70's ergonomics in the cockpit layout (metalwork, not avionics), the busy rotor head, the agricutural body work.

Everything's against it. How many left in the UK now? Any future development? Any customers? Doomed, I say...they're all doomed Captain.

TC

It may be doomed but the UK EMS customer base still 'love' it and it is the next best thing to a BK117 without putting up with the [poor & ancient] maintenance requirements of the BK. And the high set tail rotor [and Fenestron to come?] negates the supposed advantage of Notar in that quarter.

The 902 is limping, but like many 'physically disadvantaged' objects [and humans] it remains endearing to [some of] its operators.

I guess it will be a long time in its death throes but the numbers will dwindle. It is unfortunately getting a bit like a Brantly B2... niche market ... and although she/they have improved some support aspects LT does not seem to have turned the corner relating to the types overall acceptability to a wider market. Meanwhile every day that passes without development of the basic airframe places the future closer to nil.

This seems not to be a wholly 902 issue, a view of the US police market would tend to suggest the demise of the 500/600 and 520 as well - subject to the possible fillip to be offered by the recent order for Little Birds from Saudi. That assumes that MD will even get the basic airframe order from Boeing.

The 'hot seller' 500 series is again losing out heavily to the 350 in the US police market. Most cite the old story of 'support' .... and that is in the face of supposed dire EC support!

It's true. It's true; I love it! and I love her for having loved it!

Lighthouses
 

Trinity House have got one on their lighthouse contract, so there's a customer. I wonder how it's doing...

Absolute top notch machine..... Its the pilot's friend, it's just brilliant!!!!! One switch to turn it on and off, a torque meter that stops at 100% instead of some random figure and an instrument panel that dosen't tell you anything unless it gets concerned, just perfect.

As for landing site selection the NOTAR comes up thrumps every time. I'd have nightmares thinking about flying a machine with a tail rotor again.

Thomas Coupling... This report dated January 2010 noted a global fleet of 111 operational of which 23 were in the UK. Obviously the figures are always moving, but production rates are slower than the R66... At the time only 17 were operating in the US.

Winchman - if it's a "top notch machine", why have Eurocopter just completed the 900th EC135, aimed roughly at the same markets. Is it just the revolving door that Ned refers to, or are there more things to point at, like pricing and product support, for example?

DeltaNg - no, Trinity House have NOT got theirs yet, it's not even registered with the CAA. Look out for G-COTH, previously an air ambulance in Saudi with the reg N3ND, and one time operated by Suffolk County Police, NY State.

G-COTH
 

Oh dear, the EB's at Trinity will be most upset. The contract started last week :confused:

I think the numbers talk in terms of success. 900 vs 111 clearly tells you something.

The Trinity House contract was undertaken with another spare airframe but that super plan reportedly got a bit sticky when the brand new Lincs & Notts AA went sick.

Not sure what airframe is being used to service Trinity House but the dearth of these machines suggests that the old G-LNAA [due for a rebuild] may have been the one and of course having the previous owners rapping on the door asking for their old machine back because the new one was ill must have been at best embarassing just as the new contract commenced.

If even half of this rumour level information is true that cannot help along the cause of the 902 despite all the praise being heaped on this hapless aircraft in this thread. It works fine when it works but it seems it just isn't fit for purpose thanks to low numbers and inadequate back up resources [airframes and spares].

Hapless? Well the aircraft said to be due for use [eventually!] with the TH contract was in turn rejected by Suffolk County and [by Action Aviation default] the Saudi EMS [and others] ...... :ooh:

Helihub - Winchman is correct, it is a top-notch machine...from a piloting and paramedic viewpoint. Unfortunately the support etc is beyond our control.

And bear in mind that in spite of that lack of support, the West Yorkshire Police 902 has amassed over 12,600 flying hours, the Humberside machine 10,000+.

Even without proper support and development it leaves the 135 trailing as an emergency services machine, especially in the HEMS world.

Oh...IMHO of course :)

I read in HeliData News last weeek that the ex Action Aviation MD902 (now G-COTH) is indeed the Trinity machine.Apparently it arrived at Staverton at beginning of November.Currently PAS is training the crew and the aircraft should deploy this month.
The story goes on to say that the Bo105 previously used is already retired and allocated to the South Georgia Heritage Trust.

Flaxton: how many patients can a 902 take at any one time?

Flaxton

Regardless of the 902s clear merits I think it is a bit rich to even suggest that the EC135 is an 'also ran' in the emergency services arena .... even the EC145 [BK117C2] has far outsold the 902 and most sales are into utility/police/EMS. Executive sales tend to go towards the AgustaWestland camp. And the 109 has also outsold the 902.

The EC sales figures [based on paying CUSTOMER decision] are 10 to 1 against.

Heli1 - you may have thought you read that in HeliData news, but I think you'll find you actually wrote it!! And the ex Action ex Suffolk County etc machine is not "now G-COTH" as it's still not yet registered as such - you can check at the CAA's G-INFO page

The old Trinity House 105 is not just "allocated", but SOLD to South Georgia Heritage Trust along with another, a spares package and a 1000 hour component guarantee, as I wrote here.

helihub - In this release from October, MD claimed it was supporting "more than 130" Explorers worldwide. Never did understand the math behind this claim, given the number of aircraft retired/destroyed.

N3ND, last seen here, was recently confirmed by 'cliom' at Scramble as having arrived at Staverton.

I/C

No sickness I'm happy to say. Just i (dotting) and t (crossing).

The 902. You either get it or you just don't. It's a love thing.

http://i70.photobucket.com/albums/i9...icbyartona.jpg

http://i70.photobucket.com/albums/i9...u/100_2616.jpg

http://i70.photobucket.com/albums/i9...u/100_2656.jpg

Seniortrooper -depends on how many crew you have on board. One on the stretcher and two walking wounded unless you have an extra crewman / doctor / medical observer / cameraperson etc etc.

PANEWS - the 135 is a fine machine no doubt. Just happens to be second best, no shame in that, surely.

Bottom line is - if the beancounters choose your HEMS machine, you'll get an EC135. Put the pilots in charge, and the future at MD would be very rosy indeed.:ok:

109 outselling the 902...I would hope it has outsold the 902, given that it's been around since the year dot. However, how many fingers do you need to count the number of 109s flying HEMS/ Police in the UK?

Let's just say that if you have any soul, you'd want to leave the school dance with the 902. You'd still be happy enough to take the 135 home, but you wouldn't want your friends to see you with her...

Does anybody else understand HeliHubs last weird comment.I can't write...I'm a pilot!

Neither do I work for Shephard but I do visit Staverton quite frequently .

Anyway back to the thread. I agree with those who compare the MD902 and EC135 to Girl Friends but which is the Essex Girl?! I think the EC135 has the looks but the MD902 is a beaut to fly.Cant comment on the relevant intelligence levels though !

seniortrooper- as with any helicopter, it depends on kitting.
The EMS fit in U85, the machine that did the proof-of-concept in Qatar was capable of carrying two litter patients. We had the normal set-up of one litter on the APLS, and a 2nd litter that has approved restraints for the floor. Both of these litters have decent medical access when installed together. On one HEMS flight we carried 4 patients. Two were carried in seats as the paramedic could not leave them due to administering pain meds. Two were litter patients. The terrain was not conducive to ground transport and local rules did not allow a return flight to pick up patients due to darkness.
To answer your question- 2.

I view the Explorer as the ideal EMS machine. You can operate it the same in winter or summer- no downloading fuel when it get's hot out. Great OEI performance, great access room in the rear for medical folks. Very pilot friendly machine. If I had my choice, that is the machine I would be flying.
The only things holding the Explorer back are the McDonnel Douglas sale to Boeing, Boeing stopping production pending sale, RDM giving new life via MDHI and getting several out in the fleet as well as making some really nice improvements- RDM -MDHI going belly-up and support and production again stopping, Patriarch - MD making the machine cost prohibitive to purchase and then completing the company turn-around at 360 degrees instead of 180 degrees.
Fantastic machine but is constantly held back by the company that produces it. The fuel range is a drawback too, but when placed against the competition it is a wash. Other machines have to download fuel to carry the mission weight and the 902 always carries full tanks.
The guys bitching about the NOTAR vs the tail-rotor have to re-think their opinions also. The NOTAR on the Explorer doesn't like a right quartering tail-wind at high weights or DAs- show me a tail-rotor machine that does! Put the wind off the nose or quartering head-wind and it sits all day- just like a tail-rotor machine. I don't think you see many folks doing long-line or hoist work in a tail rotor ship with an un-favorable wind either.
On another note, if it was such a poor machine- why does/did EC spend so much time bad-mouthing it to customers and constantly spreading dis-infomation about the NOTAR system and the Explorer in particular. I do know this has happened around the world. I worked for MD and travelled the world performing training and demos. I got to hear all the things EUROCOPTER (marketing folks) told custoemrs about the Explorer and the NOTAR system. You only spread that kind of dis-information if you are worried. Again, if it is such a poor machine, why did they worry so much. Why did they design a "new" rotor system that is a carbon-copy of the MD900 main rotor? I could go on------

mrfriskel,

No doubt all of your statements are correct but as you know for all the right reasons the thing doesn't sell because it can't. They have cornered all the right reasons to not sell the aircraft.

So who is going to keep up the license fees to EC for the Notar Fan design?

The thing is the Edsel of Aviation. As a car the Edsel wasn't bad either.

Substitute as appropriate.

Mark has seen the love. RVDT hasn't.

Great collection of photos on your website gallery, Mark.

You are correct- it is not selling because it can't. No changing that. I am just supporting the acft is not the fault. It is a very fine acft, and I personally belive one of the best designes for it's weight class. I have often wondered if Howard Hughes put a curse on the company when he left! Every time the product line gets headed the right direction there is a new road-block. Usually that roadblock is in the form of company capital either not being available or being used in the wrong places.
Anyway- my point is it is not the machine, it is the people behind the machine and behind the scenes.





Thanks BT

But another thought,

Run the company through a bankruptcy, recapitalize it appropriately. Drop the 520n, 600n, keep the 902 as well as the E using the new RR500 and the F models with a C30R3.

To compete with Robinson and the R66, start the C model back up.

Re-invigorate the spares business raising volumes and lowering pricing and costs with a drive to increase hours flown.

Sell to larger player once fixed.

Buy another company, repeat process, retire at 72 or maybe 76 if things keep going as they are with respect to retirement plans in the world.

Why the RR500?

Parent companies.
 

Notar or not to notar, after looking at the parent companies of the 3 light helicopter makers, I found the following;

1. The EADS eurocopter company made 43.3 billion euro's in 2008 according to Eurcopter's website, and EADS employ a workforce of 118,000 people. They appear to be concentrating on building aircraft, and not buying and selling companies to make a buck.

2. MD seem to be a smaller setup and I think they now produce a couple of airframes. The MD company partners LT and Joep seem to specialise in buying and selling distressed companies (trucks, make up kits, tassles, tanks etc) and then closing them after a few years such as RDM?

3. AugustaWestland appear to be a very large Anglo Italian company with large revenues and military contracts in both countries. The partnership has been running for 20 years according to their website with large order books for various arframes.

If I was an ambulance charity, police force, or a rich individual who was about to purchase a new multi million pound helicopter I would be looking closely at the support network of the helicopter manufacturer, and especially at the people who are behind the brand name, which may have changed hands a few times over 10 years?

Its the same if you were buying a car, if you werent sure of the parts network for a car in future years, you probably wouldnt buy the car would you?

I've flown in all 3 a/c 902, 135 and 109, and the 109 was the fastest and most modern cab from a drivers point of view, the 135 was the least smooth but is a modern cockpit, and the 902 seems to have more room in the back compared to the other 2.

That said, the EADS and AugustaWestland companies appear to be in it for the long run and concentrate of manufacturing aircraft, but I'm not so sure about MD and what LT and Joep have in mind? :hmm:

For Thomas Coupling, re your rant that goes from "The 902 is doomed." to "...they're all doomed Captain." How many hours have you got on the '902?

lets have bets

i say less than 1 hour

How cynical! TC's authoritive style led me to imagine he was a TRI/TRE on type!

Then why not lease?

Handy in an ambulance!



B Thruster aka NotaLuvver!

'NotaLuvver'?

Was that name given to you by a girlfriend Bertie? :D

TeeS

girlfriend?

'Course, for the price of a MD902 these days you could also buy a B429 or EC145, with even more room in the back. As Mark already mentioned, the new owners have hiked prices in order to try and squeeze cashflow out of the business (similar to what Schweizer has experienced).

Unlikely to be popular with many MD500 operators, since it would preclude use of PMA spares.

I/C

One of our visiting Docs says he finds our 902 easier to work in than the 117. Something to do with bulkheads.

leasing option
 

Re bertie Thrusters leasing option,

I believe various air ambulance charities are now catching on to how expensive the leasing option can be.

Look at what the GNAA charity say in the the press.- It makes more sense to buy helicopters and have something to show for the money, instead of leasing a/c and having nothing to show for it at the end of the lease.

How much are MD902's since the MD price rise which was mentioned above?

Are MD still thinking about moving production or has LT got other plans?

That's why they call it the notar.
When most professional companies were asked if they would like to operate the 902, they unanimously said: notar :D

seniortrooper,
A gudun :D

Not what I heard from a very senior redtop man a few years ago. The training staff all wanted 902 but the exchange rate at the time made it too expensive. So they went for the 135.

As an aside, I spent the greater part of a day last week waiting for a 135 to be released following what was meant to be a short scheduled service at a police unit. The aircraft went off at 0900 and wasn't released until 1700! One problem according to the engineer (very respected by me and others there) was the nightmare paperwork provided.

I have lost count how many times I've experienced this with the 135 (earlier this year the adjacent 135 unit lost theirs for 5 WEEKS! Strangely not reported on pprune or by PAN News:rolleyes:)

I am current on both types and have in excess of 1500 hrs 135 and 1000 hrs 902, and by my personal experience the 902 is, on balance, the better aircraft. I like flying the 135 a lot but I am regularly mystified by the absolutely virulently negative attitude some peolple have towards the 902. The only thing they seem have in common is that they aren't type rated on it. (it can't, of course, because some have a vested interest in pushing Eurocopter products...oh no:rolleyes:)

Also, when when people trumpet the industrial might of Eurocopter or AG, why can I hear the "Imperial March" from Star Wars playing in my head? (der, der, der; der, dee, der etc. there it goes again!)

I'm off to finish putting up my new bike shed!