Hearing problems and flying the S92
 

Hello 92 drivers out there.
I am just wondering how many pilots that fly the 92 are suffering from hearing problems after a reasonable short time of flying the thing.
I have all the gadgets to try and protect my precious hearing(helmet.earpugs etc) but still after a full day of flying(6 hours),my ears are ringing and almost hurting.
How many of you suffer from the same problems:uhoh:

Cheers
rotorknight

You are not the only one rotorknight.
I started getting problems with tinnitus almost immediately after I started flying the S92.
It has not gotten worse than what I can live with, but I have heard a couple of pilots are about to lose their medical due to tinnitus, and this makes me worried.

Crikey now that worrys me!

What sort of problems you gonna get flying in something less exotic than a S76? like a MD500 (heard there pretty loud) all day or Robbies??

I would of thought S76 was pretty good with sound proofing etc... only assuming as never even got near one of the damn things!

Does make me wonder about Robbies and such, I mean you can see sunlight through the door joins in Robinsons so there hardly an advert for sound proofing.......

I find the S92 uncomfortable after two flights/6 hours a day. I am using earplugs and DC headset, tried a helmet and noticed an improvement but is still not perfect. I tend to notice slight discomfort a few hours later in the evening, not painful, but just not right. Something needs to be done, but I don't Sikorsky are making much of an effort (I stand to be corrected).

TiP

I haven't flown the 76 or the 500, but I have 1200 hrs or something in the R22, and it's nowhere near as noisy as the S 92.
The Norwegian aeromedical institute made a survey concerning noise and vibrations in helicopters at the norwegian sector, and the results are very alarming to us S92 pilots.
I just hope Sikorsky will take this problem seriously!

...........pardon...........?

Where can you get hold of the results of the survey?

Thanks.

Here it is!
Flymedisinsk Institutt

Are there any other sources for cockpit noise levels in different helicopters apart from the one mentioned below? Anyone knows where I can get hold of it?

Gasaway DC. Noise levels in cockpits of aircraft during normal cruise and
considerations of auditory risk. Aviat Space Environ Med. 1986 Feb;57(2):103-12.

Is it apparent where the highest noise levels are coming from? engines/transmission/main rotor etc.

Anyone notice any benefit with a Bose noise cancelling headset or similar?

Is it purely a factor of decibels or is vibration a factor as well?

Cheers,
bb

Hi bb in ca,I think most of the noise comes from the rotor,cooling fans,and unfortunately I think a lot of the physical problems have to do with the vibrations as well.
I personally feel that I am sitting in front of the sound boxes at at a rock concert all the time:{.

I use musicians earplugs - ER25. Brilliant if you can afford them - they've saved my hearing i'm sure (i fly non rotary -sorry!). If you think you are really getting a problem i can't recommend them more highly. I got them after seeing a thread a while back

Interesting, I fly the HH-60 and haven't noticed any such dramatic noise problems.

the problem is: heavy aircraft and only four blades.
The shockwave hitting the captain side is so strong, it feels like sitting close to a base drum.
ptcpuller

Can't speak from a pilots seat but the back of the S-92 is quieter than a Black Hawk, Chinook or even an AS332, most of the cockpit noise comes from the cooling fans,and yes the rotors and vibs, have any of the european operators had the CSN done to put the hushkits on the fans yet? and if so any noticable drop in noise?
Still not done yet here in Oz.
The main problem here is heat stress for the crew.....of S-76's and AS332's, Super Puma crews comeback after 4-5 hrs in 35oC + looking like been in a sauna, 92 crews happy with aircon, though the supposed high comfort seat could do with somemore padding!

Rcdude

That is the link to the website. The link to the article is here

Of course unless your Norwegian is up to scratch then you will have trouble reading it. But you can block translate roughly if you use this link to translate it.. happy reading ;-)

MD :ok:

I can't read Norwegian but looking at the graphs it seems to have be 120 db at 16 Hz. (I could be wrong on that) That is quite loud.

Have any of the 92 pilots tried an ANC headset (like Bose, DC or Zulu)? They take out a lot of the low end frequencies to make the ride quieter. I know Bose has a 30 day free trial. It might be worth it. I put one in my MSA helmet and am really enjoying it.

As far as I know ANC is not going to protect your hearing, it just cancels out the noise that you can hear. Lot of the sound waves enter through your skull and that is where a helmet is more efficient than a Headset.
I fly the AS350 with an MSA Gallet and sometimes I use earplugs to further lessen the noise.

Having lost most of my hi-freq hearing and some of the normal voice range and both aggravated by a roaring case of Tinnitus.....do everything you can to protect your hearing. Be aggressive in taking what preventative measures you can.

Almost two thousand hours of Chinook time before the days of good helmets and earphones got me early on.

If you find yourself running out of volume control on the interphone panel....you just might want to have a really good hearing test done. You will probably find the Hi-Freq range is suffering a loss.

At least now I have a good excuse for ignoring the Missus!:O

For what it's worth the US Army requires earplugs or CEP's under the flight helmet in the UH-60 because of the noise level. This is based on an occupational exposure to 85 db for 8 hours being considered hazardous. The noise level in the UH-60 is around 102 db. The SPH-4B and HGU-56 helmets reduce that to 90.6 db, and the SPH-4 reduces it to 95.1 db. The SPH-4/foam earplug combination reduces it to 70.4 db. The HGU-56 with CEP's reduces it to 71.1 db, and has the added advantage of making radio and ics easier to hear. Since the S-92 is kind of a cross between a Blackhawk and a CH-3E I would probably wear them were I flying one...

"Lot of the sound waves enter through your skull and that is where a helmet is more efficient than a Headset."

With any luck my extra thick skull will actually assist me for a change!

Hi all,

in use with the belgian police helicopters and hopefully soon also in our squadron are ortoplastics.
The follwing link is only to give you the idea of an ortoplastic - it´s in german and not from the manufacture we might get ours from.
http://www.inear.de/files/phpyjVzYr.pdf

Systems you can get:

system made to fit your ear by making it specially for your ears.

specified sound proofing for the model you fly, i.e. the frequencys, which are produced by the bird are filtered out do to special drillings (gearbox, rotor, engines)

have inbuild earphones, so you can understand radiotransmissions etc.

could have inbuild microphone, so you can stick your head outside (winching) with no windnoises coming throug the mike.

I´ve heard the quality of the belgian police equipment and was stunned.
The mic took the speach from inside the ear!!!!

Greetings Flying Bull

+1 vote for the noise protection advantage of CEPs. I have used them with a helmet for about 5 years and about a year ago got them installed in my headset for the "helmet not preferred" moments. The difference is clear as day, and they really do work on cutting down the crap getting into the ears.

Mike

Hi Mike,
I think the ortoplastics are going a step further - allowing adaptation for the noise enviroment you´re working in.
The additional mic you can have makes the thing great for crewmembers, who stick their head out to give us the guidence we need in smal places or while winching.
With the pricing I found for CEPs, I think you can also afford ortoplastics - and have state of the art protection.
In case I find the appropiate homepage, I´ll post it hear.

Greetings Flying Bull

Custom Ear Plugs
 

Have tried them and rejected them after a week of use. The skin in the ear where the plugs touched became sore and this compromised subsequent use. I know of 2 colleagues who are flying with hearing aids thanks to the excessive noise INSIDE the headset.

Where to next I wonder?

G

Probably accept the fact you will need a Brass Ear Trumpet at some point in your flying career I would say!

The recommendations in the report are translated as follows:-

"VIBRATION (Bodily)

Vibration levels are below the action value for the majority of military and civilian helicopters that are measured and summed up to a specified flight. For S-92, however, is the vibration level equal measures the value of an offshore account. This means that there should be measures to reduce the vibration level, or reduce the flying time to get a less than 0.5 m/s2 ila. an 8-hour workinconstantly making improvements on their helicopters, but has not necessarily a primary focus on reducing noise and vibration exposure in flying personnel. Much of this work is to reduce wear on moving parts and the hull. One would think that the recent helicopter vibration has less impact on the flying personnel than the old models, but this is not always the case and may reflect some of the problem as mentioned above. g day. Regulation on protection against mechanical vibrations are not yet approved by the MLS, but it is possible to prevent by the frontrunner. Helicopter manufacturers are constantly making improvements on their helicopters, but has not necessarily a primary focus on reducing noise and vibration exposure in flying personnel. Much of this work is to reduce wear on moving parts and the hull. One would think that the recent helicopter vibration has less impact on the flying personnel than the old models, but this is not always the case and may reflect some of the problem as mentioned above.

New S-92 in relation to the Super Puma L2 is a good example of a helicopter type where a helicopter of a newer generation vibrates more than the "old" helicopter. Our measurements show that the Super Puma has 42% lower vibration level below 1000 feet in cruise 145 knots than the S-92.

NOISE (Inside the headset)

In many contexts it is desirable to be on the safe side. Although pilots use ear protection and it is carried out a noise-reduction measures in the S-92 is the measurement results closely over the rafters and upper action value. One is not in any way on the safe side, given that 85 dBA is a limit in relation to risk of developing hearing damage. Regulations recommends a 10 dBA lower value relative to the lower action value, which gives 70 dBA within ear pads as an ideal noise level in a helicopter cockpit for a comfortable workplace. This is the level we are not in the near today. Due to that there have been too little on this issue, NOK is because it lacks certification requirements that deal with."

Now that is a literal translation of the summary... it could i am sure be put into "Better" English.

It is also interesting to read that the researchers state that there is no industry standard with regards to health and safety to the levels of acceptable noise in the cockpit of a helicopter, wether it be vibrasional noise on the body or noise that is heard through a headset.

But it is comforting to note that Sikorsky have made an effort to put a thicker pane of glass on the commanders side to reduce the effect of "noise" upon him/her. But the researcher also reassures us that he is in no doubt sure that there will be guidelines for manufacturors to restrict the amount of noise in the cockpit in the future.

MD :(

I must say, after only a short exposure to the S-92A, it is the loudest work environment I know. I have so far tried DC headset, ALPHA helmet (Stock), ALPHA Modified with Oregon Aero Hush-Kit, ALPHA Helmet Stock ear-cups with GENTEX SPH-5 Ear seals, and have now added a set of CEP. Hopefully it will help.

I'm finding that by the end of a second trip 7-8 hours, I have the ICS turned up to MAX and still have to ask for repeats. This is the loudest helo I have ever been in. Much louder than the SK or even the Chinook! I'm sure that the cockpit proximity to the MRB tips and the 4-blade design are doing it. Every bit of glass and plexi in the front office is moving like a drum skin. The windshield must be moving in and out 0.5 cm with the passage of each blade (Roughly 16 Hz). It is an astounding acoustic assault. As I recall from my HFE (Human Factors In Engineering), the danger range for Whole Body Vibrations is in the 1-80 Hz range. That puts the S-92 Cockpit environment in the first quarter (linear) or middle of that range (logarithmically). I suspect that the sound pressure levels and acceleration limits are at or above the OSH safety standards... But what can you do?

S92
 

Recent developements introduced after gearbox mounting problems require us to cruise at reduced speeds which means using less torque
which has the added benefit of reduced vibration
If your company does not have this directive -- try keeping the torque closer to 70% rather than 80%, it adds a few mins to the flight but makes for a smoother ride
Helmet and CEP's seem to work better overall than any headset available

Pv

Busdriver - I used to fly the HH-60 too (maybe we know each other - its a small world!) and loved it, but its the noisiest helicopter I've ever flown - even with CEP's I was worried about my hearing decline.

Well, my only other experience is the Huey. Guess I just assumed helos are loud period.

Slightly Off Topic, but still kind of relevant. I remember when an audiologist came to the UK base I was working at to measure Helo cockpit noise levels.

Pilots were wanting company to splash out on Bose ANC headsets.

Audiologist agreed that noise levels were excessive, but said that Bose was not the way to go. They do cancel out low freq well, but evidently not high freq, and they don't have very good clamping pressure for passive attenuation.

His opinion was that a helmet was best, and a good DC headset (best clamping pressure he said) with GOOD ear plugs. Just crank up the radio volume to hear it.

I use ER-4P earphones from Etymotic Research for audio enjoyment, and they have 25dB passive attenuation. If their earphones are anything to go by, then their earplugs should be fantastic.

They might be expensive, but you only have two ears!

Noise and vibration in Helicopters
 

Hi,

I'm currently flying the S-92. Vibration is - in my view - the biggest problem, because of the impact on the hearing.

As Health and Safety rep. for the Pilots at my base and AAP IFALPA rep for Norway (Norsk Flygerforbund - Norwegian ALPA) I'm about to give a speech on Noise and Vibration in Helicopters at the end of April to a Flight Safety Forum.
The current speed restriction from Sikorsky helps....
70% torque is good...
6 AVC's are better than 3....some times.
....but in the hangar - only AC - and the cockpit screen cooler fans running, 110 dB has been measured.....OUTSIDE the S-92!!
Hush kit is available (2-3 dB as I recall, correct me)

I'm very interested in :

- your type of hearing protection equipment flying the S-92 and other large helicopters
- your experience on the equipment (yearly flying hrs, torque setting,S-92..)
- do you have tendency to - or do you have tinnitus? Any corrolated hearingloss?
- links to scientific research (I do have the Norwegian ones and the one made in Southhampton back in 1988)
- your thoughts on how to solve the problems

j.staffeldt - at - gmail.com

If will - ofcourse - respect your privacy, and I do not need any personal information.
Just trying to get an overall picture, because everybody is talking about it, and not many are doing something about it.

Best regards

Jørgen Staffeldt
Captain S-92
Bergen

The new "yellow hatters"; pipe, slippers.......and hearing aid?

Does anybody have any information on the HUSH kit Sikorsky offer for the S-92? Also does anyone have any experience flying with it installed?

Many thanks,

TiP:ugh:

Anecdotal only. It was the main rotor gear box on the WS55 Series 3, right behind my head, that did for my hearing, after only fifteen months on type. My AME told me that even if I had wanted to go on flying after age sixty I would probably fail the hearing test.

Finally
 

It is finally taken up in Norway,albeit by the newspapers,so lets see if something will be done now.
Lots of coverage(in Norwegian) in Dagbladet.no - forsiden from this week.

rotorknight

Exactly, SASLess! My problem is, I can never remember which ear I told her has the worst hearing loss. ;)

After 2,100 hours in CH-53s, I can tell you the noise primarily comes from the transmission. I can only wish we had active noise reduction in those days.

Effective Noise Protection - SAR S92
 

Finally found a combination that works. Gallet Helmet with Oregon Aero Hush Kit installed, Zeta Liner, and CEP with custom moulded ear plugs. Can't even hear the APU starting up. Sweet silence. It also helps to open the left cockpit window when hoisting, to let the pressure waves escape!

As an aside to that.... Can you fail a medical (under 60) for high pitch hearing loss? (ICAO).
Ive been told by my AME that my high side is below limits, but he still issues the cert! :D

Sorry for thread creep.

GTF.