IMC in an R22 - anyone done this?
 

Has anyone here actually gone IMC in an R22 for any significant period of time? (ie more than a few seconds while flying through a small cloud)

I'd be interested in hearing the details. How hard was it? Etc.

Be hard pressed top find any VFR-only trained pilot who survived punching into cloud in an R22.:=

Oh dear :ugh::ugh:

Perhaps a trawl of the UK accident records for CFIT will yield you some answers :{

Half the reason for the Safety Evenings being held in the UK is to STOP unlicensed/untrained people from trying to do what you enquire.

Alternatively, perhaps the EXTREMELY lucky fool that was VMC on top by Aintree recently and asking ATC for help, might like to share :eek:

IIRC the Bristow cadets did an IFR course at Redhill on the R22, albeit with an instructor always present and were 'examined' by the CAA before being released to main bases.

ergo it can be done under the proper circumstances.

back when I was a ppl which is a long time ago I was flying with another ppl in an r22 from shoreham to sandown IOW he was flying but we had the cyclic in on my side so I could help with the radio. About half way there we saw sea fog in front of us and decided to turn around but we where too late and it formed around us and we went imc.

my friend could not do the whole lot so i took over the cyclic he pulled full power and we climbed out the top headed back to shoreham by which time the airfield was in fog so we headed to blackbush.

I have never been imc in a 22 since and will never again I hope, it is not something to be done lightly and I think we had a lucky escape.Imc should only be done by those with currant IR's as look at what happens to some evan in suitable heli's.

On completion of my instructor rating in the late 90's my FIC took me into cloud for at least 6-7 mins which seemed like 6 - 7 hours. I re call being able to hold it straight / level with some minor adjustments from my instructor. Its not that differcult knowing you have a once IMC examiner sat next to you ready to sort it out.

In reality without proper training its impossible and that's without that the blind panic thats sets in 5 seconds after it all goes white after a further 15 seconds you start to sweat and then its starts to snowball. The feeling in your stomach is yuk

Its a lot easier in a 44 and a Bell 47 you can eat your butties on the way.

IMC is for twin pilot in a proper machine.

So why are we training simulated imc. Its a complete nonsense

Sailor, Thanks for that BUT I suggest you check more closely :ugh:

The actual question asked was....................

R22 IFR training is ONLY legally allowed to be done VMC with screens (or foggles) and the Bristows AB206 IFR trainer has a similar VMC restriction.

Ergo, anybody flying IMC in an R22 regardless of being IFR trained or not is doing so illegally as the R22 is not approved for IMC flight in JAA land.

Nice to see the efforts of GS and MG will not be wasted with SO much misunderstanding amongst pilots :ok:

An article, from about two years ago, summed up IMC flight in an R22 very accurately - Do it, AND die :eek:

Cyclic,

I agree :ok:

But see Crazy's response above yours. I can appreciate why Sim IFR is within both the PPL and CPL syllabus. To help those unfortunate enough to get themselves into such a grave situation (no pun intended).

FWIW I think it would be time better spent improving the Airmanship skills of low hours pilots so that they make good/correct decisions much earlier - thereby reducing the numbers of those that push their luck to the extent that serious injury and or death is a real possibility.

Guess we're back to the Safety evenings initiated by GS and MG (not of course forgetting the assistance now provided by Paco) :ok:

IMC/IFR flight can be safely completed, but by qualified and current pilots in IFR certificated machines. The rules are quite clear and simple really :ok:

FW

You can do your FAA IFR/ATPL rating in an R22, but like those above said it needs to be done in VFR flight conditions because the R22 is not certificated for IFR. Many years ago I did my IFR check-ride in an R22 at night and we were in and out of cloud for much of the time. The examiner was a Robinson factory authorized test pilot and he obviously didn't have much of an issue flying the R22 under those conditions because that's what we did. So to answer the question, it can be done, but not legally.

One of the requirements for an IFR approved helicopter is to have a cyclic centering capability in pitch and roll. A force trim system can provide that.
And there's a good reason for requiring the system - once you have trimmed up, it requires a force to displace the stick, thus providing the pilot with a cue in hand that the stick is being moved from trim.
Since even a small lateral displacement of the cyclic from the 'wings level' position produces a roll rate, which is probably slow enough to not be noticed until the bank angle is too steep to safely recover from by use of instruments alone, having a trim system is a good thing.
But we don't ever require it in all IFR training helicopters, like R-22/44, Schweizer 300, etc.

Pity.

IMC in an R22
 

Just ask the guy who was flying in company with another same-type a/c a few years back on their way back into Cairns in an R22. Trying to cross a mountain saddle with very low cloud, the lead aircraft entered cloud for just a moment when the pilot lost it and crashed into a rainforest! Luckily, both occupants walked away reasonably unscathed but the a/c was totalled!
:=

Shawn,

If not force trim, what is the system in a Schweizer 300 series called? I understand the Robinsons don't really have a trim system, but the hat trim button, motors, and springs in the 300 is better than none. I always liked being able to trim the 300 for a reasonably stable forward flight without the need to make the cyclic grip a [semi]permanent part of my hand.

I'm not saying it's a force trim - I'm just curious what it's called if not.

Bob

There's no black magic about flying helicopters in cloud without stability systems or autopilots as long as you've got the requisite instruments. Even on limited panel (ie no attitude indicator), it's doable, but the key is training.

One prevailing view in Australia is that teaching helicopter pilots a little bit about flying on instruments encourages them to take risks that get them into trouble because they push weather limits. There's no requirement for instrument training in our CPL syllabus, whereas fixed wing have to do a few hours, which I think is a cop-out to cut down training hours and therefore cut down the considerable expense of getting a licence.

I don't agree with the "don't expose them to it" argument at all, and would suggest that a bit of instrument training combined with sensible advice about pushing personal limits would save lives in the long run.

CrazyBroadsword's story is a case in point for the necessity for teaching basic intrument flying. Surely no trained pilot can say that teaching how to deal with an IMC eventuality encourages accidents by ecouraging pilots to take risks? Training reduces the risks.... An extreme example of the no-imc-training ethic is.. teaching flying encourages accidents!
Knowledge is key... ignorant curiosity killed the cat...etc.. if you don't teach it some ppl will go and try it... teaching basic IMC for that inevitable day is essential training that really should no more be a question than any other essential safety/ emergency training...

As for the original question, R22 in IMC is technically no different to any other heli... keep your speed and trust the instruments.. But if it's curiosity you have... then far better try your hand in a sim (MS 2004). Instrument flying is the one thing you can get a taste of on the computer. Perhaps read some Vietnam heli books and get a flavour for IMC incidents and flying. In ChickenHawk they cope with no AH in IMC... The ASI is more responsive than VSI so you use that to stay level... etc etc Knowledge may save your bacon one day.... but this is one thing to 'Do try it at home'!. on the computer... not in the air...

I think the important thing is for a pilot to know his own personal limits and those of the aircraft and also the legal requirements and to stick by them.

Any pilot can get caught out by a bit of cloud; suitable training can teach how to safely deal with it. I'm a believer that exposure to the situation in a controlled environment i.e. with an instructor, within the law, is the best way to keep a pilot safe for the future.

Unfortunately, common sense cannot be taught. For example, not so long ago I had a close encounter with a single engined helicopter (R-44), whilst we were flying IMC at 2400ft under a RIS. The R-44 was presumably being flown illegally because he was at an estimated 2300ft in solid IMC, not squawking and not talking, crossing a commonly used route in and out of the Heathrow zone. We were advised by Heathrow Radar of his presence but wrongly assumed, because of the weather and other circumstances, that he would be below the 1500 foot overcast. I don't think he saw us, but we saw him. I am fairly certain which aircraft it was. I hope the pilot isn't doing this on a regular basis or we might be having another "statistic" in the not-too distant future and if I see it again I will definitely be reporting it.

imc in an 22
 

No, wrong, don`t, not good!!!:confused:

Nothing wrong with IMC in an unstabilised single IF the pilot is properly trained AND maintains currency at the skill (done routinely by the military) BUT BUT BUT - it's illegal in a civvy registered heli in the UK. The danger with showing a R22 pilot how to fly on instruments will always be that he/she may be tempted to push the weather limits a little further that is safe (although I do understand the good intentions of exposing a pilot to IF to give him a fighting chance if he should go inadvertent entry into cloud). By all means practice the skill with an instructor, but when the weather turns marginal, always chicken out early AND remember 'Don't Press On - land On'.

I too have been there in an R22 under training (with a suitably qualified instructor in the left seat) and I agree with all of Cyclic-Flare's comments regarding time passing and sweating. It scared the sh*t out of me :\ and I have heeded his advice ever since to treat clouds as being made of concrete :ok:.

My advice is simply DON'T DO IT! The AAIB are busy enough without you.

Ian.

IMC Training and Risk
 

Surely no trained pilot can say that teaching how to deal with an IMC eventuality encourages accidents by ecouraging pilots to take risks?

Is it not the case that, following inclusion of IMC simulation in the PPL(H) syllabus, the accident rate arising from inadvertent IMC in PPL Helicopters has risen markedly? Of course, the existence of two facts in not sufficient to imply causality but it does beg the question.

I am aware we are creeping off the thread a bit here.

I believe the inclusion of IMC has been discussed at length before.

However as a 22 and 44 PPL and having completed my time behind the foggles during training i know now IMC is not the place i want to be.

And for this reason i pay even more attention to my weather planning.

If the weather is marginal i am staying on the ground.

Itarman,

Sadly it does :{ As a previous FI and now an IR holder there is a real difference between Sim IMC, knowing somebody else can see outside and actual IMC.

Examples:
Lowish hours ppl(h) holder and R44 owner - reguarly flies through and in cloud. Once saw him fly into a basically fog bound airfield. Explanation given was punched up through it, when zoomed in gps said I was above the airfield I slowed and descended!! I kid you not:eek:

Or the soon to be ppl applicant that despite a non existent horizon and a clearly lowering cloud base, pressed on despite very obvious hints to the contrary, before flying into cloud at 1000' AGL in an R44. First reaction was to gulp and freeze on the controls, rapidly selecting left roll and nose down. As the FI took control student uttered ' Can you do this please'. Control was regained, a level 180 turn completed and when the aircraft went back VMC it was less than 300' AGL:eek: I know the facts, as I was the FI!!!! This was with a student who had been very sensible throughout their ppl. To finish the story, once they'd recovered the stude asked to continue with the nav exercise. Hints were again given to the contrary and eventually they were taken. A decision was made by the student to return to base, but via the most direct route - that involved flying over the high ground! You've guessed it. Straight back into IMC and very low to the ground :uhoh: I took control as we neared the grey, maintained control throughout and we had an interesting debrief and discussion on future training :mad: It remains the scariest thing I've ever done in a helicopter (I was low hours and no IR) and I never gave a student that much leeway again.

FWIW I think the syllabus is there trying to show students that IMC flight in an unstabilised single is not only very different, but very difficult. Sadly you cannot guarantee that all students will appreciate and respect that lesson.

Recall the B206 that landed in worsening weather, waited about 3 hours and despite no improvement now thought it safer to continue:confused: 4 fatalities IIRC. What a needless waste of life :{

Reality is there will always be 'One' that thinks they know better.:ugh:

Not many been there in the R22, ...but my suggestion is this...


DONT GO THERE!!:=

Much easier to take out any .45 Smith & Wesson load 5 flatnosed shells ( leave the sixth chamber empty) spin the chamber, point at head and pull softly on the trigger, if nothing goes bang consider the lesson learnt empty all cylinders and then recite to yourself, wow Ive been lucky! if you are PPL(H) then stay VFR, its much nicer to be able to talk after your flights, rather than talked about......... But then there are always some who will try to expand the envelope, and when it rips its too late!

VfrpilotPB/2
Peter R-B

A good friend of mine went Inadvertant IMC in an R-44. He was a talented CFII and his student was also a rated helicopter pilot. They both died. Here is the link to the NTSB reports:

http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?e...30X00889&key=1

You do not want to go IMC in any helicopter without SAS or autopilot

A good friend of mine went Inadvertant IMC in an R-44. He was a talented CFII and his student was also a rated helicopter pilot. They both died. Here is the link to the NTSB reports:

http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?e...30X00889&key=1

You do not want to go IMC in any helicopter without SAS or autopilot


Not to speak ill of the dead, BUT.

That accident has nothing to do with SAS or autopilot. He intentionally went IMC at night with a non IFR helicopter. Then he circled down through the clouds and hit the ground. If you are making decisions like that, it doesn't matter what you are flying.

Instrument flying in singles
 

After the first page of this thread, I could barely believe what I was reading ... then the experienced guys came in and started to shout the message loud & clear.

Don't attempt cloud flying in a light single in any circumstances.

And for those guys able to afford a twin, the message is the same until you have the full instrument rating and our cleared to do so by an IRE.

The top north sea and corporate guys fly IFR for breakfast of course, but they've all done around 50 hours dedicated instrument training on top of a fairly average 1000 hours. I'm a 13.700 hour rotary man with an ex RAF fixed wing 'Master Green' instrument card, but these days it wouldn't enter my head to attempt IFR in any helicopter without a ton of serious instrument practice first. And as has been noted here, in the UK, single engine IMC is not legal anyway.

On a personal basis, I regard the EASA (CAA) 5 hour PPL requirement as an open invitation to an accident. Please see the LOOP article November 2007. www.loop.aero.

Sadly, I am now up to number 8 counting the number of good colleagues I have lost while flying knowingly or unknowingly into cloud. Three of them professionally qualified.

The advice is clear ... Don't attempt it. Sure, you may be good enough to manage it ... but you don't want to be airborne in cloud when you discover you aren't!

Hope we can discuss the issue on our informal safety evenings.

Safe flying to all,

Dennis Kenyon.

Just a note on my post I did my ppl before the 5 hour imc training came about and as I now teach this to others I don't agree it's a good idea, better to spend the time on improving airmanship and nav skills.

Interesting replies chaps, keep em coming.

And by the way, I am an experienced instructor with over 1,600 hours, not a PPL newbie. And, no I would never attempt IMC in an R22,

Flingingwings; my point is that INADVERTENT IMC should be 'escapable' from' if it isn't, don't go there.

I once flew a 206B up through 3000' of cloud, but I knew it was clear on top and I was current IFR on 2 other Bell types, (one of which had force trim, but not 'beepable'), and I knew that I was climbing over the sea, before turning onto track.

The Whirlwind 7 (S-fifty something) I flew while training didn't have a trim either, but we did manage to get a basic military IR.

BTW, I've never flown the R22 and have no wish to do so!!

(Excuse the gravelly voice, I've got a cold!)

I think its worth mentioning that going inadvertent IMC in a light helicopter not approved to fly in IMC (Not just R22s or singles) with a pilot who has only had the basic instrument flight training is a world apart from an instrument rated pilot having pre planned a flight taking into account minimum altitudes for terrain clearance, freezing levels etc, flying a machine certified to fly IMC.

I think the 5 hours instrument training will lull some people into a false sense of security to think they can do this, it depends on the person. I think the 5 hours could be better spent teaching students how to avoid going IMC in the first place.

My advice is do what ever you have to do to stay below cloud in the first place, if you make a decision early enough you should be able to divert to another airport etc but ultimately if you can’t do that then stick the machine on the deck.

Sailor,

I wasn't trying to make my reply a direct attack.
As an industry we cannot escape the fact that CFIT is the single biggest cause of fatalities and injuires within the UK :(
Nor can we escape the fact that a great number of those incidents stem from totally poor airmanship decisions early on.

And that is my point also :ok: although FWIW I dislike the term inadvertent IMC :mad: The clouds don't just suddenly jump out and surround you whilst simultaneously shouting 'surprise' :ugh: The weather hints have more than likely been there for ages (forecasts and actual observations) it's just some choose to ignore them or leave a potentially good decision until far too late.

An experienced IR holder, particularly a 'current' one would have no major issues acting as you've suggested (legal issues aside). BUT how many current ME IR holders would deliberately take such a needless risk.?

What 'we' are trying to strongly discourage are non IR trained pilots (and I include JAA PPL's, CPL's and FI's who regardless of simulated IMC hours do not hold an IR) from being foolish enough to fly IMC, unqualified/untrained in a non IFR approved light helicopter.

We have to bear in mind that many who find themselves inadvertent IMC never set out to be there. They've more than likely set out on a marginal weather day, the weather (cloud base and viz) has gradually worsened and to compensate they've systematically got slower and lower whilst they've pressed on (scud running). They are going to be stressed and close to mental overload, just about at the point they go IMC :uhoh:

Previous threads have shown that a percentage of pilots believe this get lower and slower to be an adequate way of attempting to squeeze past poor weather. Some believeing that being very low at a hover taxi speed in total IMC is easily recoverable:confused: Even when IR holders have explained about minimum IFR control speeds and hinted at the meticulous planning that goes into an off airfield IMC cloud break to a private site.

I cast no illusions. At times it is extremely hard work in a well equipped and approved IFR machine (and I'm current). To attempt similar in a non approved A/c is a mindless and needless attempt at assisted suicide :eek:

The least experienced press on, when the more experienced turn back, only to see the most experienced who never set off in the first place.

I'd rather be on the ground wishing I was flying, than flying and wishing I was on the ground.

If we want the CFIT incident rate to decline I agree with the founders of the safety eveings, that the more experienced pilots should provide clear unambiguous guidance to those with less. Hopefully the UK safety evenings will dispel some of the myths and old wives tales/ bravado. :ok:

Somebody should get Q along to one of these safety evenings. That would make for an interesting discussion! :ok:

Gomez308-

I agree that the accident I posted has less to do with SAS or autopilot, and more to do with pilot decision making. My point is that without the proper tools, if you go IMC inadvertantly or intentionally (makes no difference to me), you are taking incredibly enormous risks.

I've flown a bunch of time under the hood in the R-22 and R-44, doing everything by myself, with no assistance at all- and that is the way I taught my students to fly IFR in the R-22, as well. Later in my career, flying 412's and S-76's IFR dual pilot was a real eye opener- it was relaxing and it made sense.....very unlike when I had to fly that R-22 for IFR x-country flights under the hood.

I have no doubt that there will be/are some people taking the IFR paneled R-44's out for a spin in the clouds. What a stupid thing to do.

I've flown IFR IMC without an autopilot, but I would never attempt it without SAS. One distraction and you are a goner.

Glad to see a discussion here which generally points in the direction required. I believe it's just a matter of getting low timers and the inexperienced to take note of others and not be afraid of saying 'no, not flying today. Lets go tomorrow if it's improved'
Anyone who fits IFR kit to an R44 then goes IMC to 'try it out' is a tit! It would be cheaper to just jump off a bridge and kill yourself.

Become more proficient at reading Met forms.

Hi, Very interesting topic FWIW my 5 cents worth
firstly I would never be tempted to do IMC in a single , if its that bad wx then dont go, turn back or LAND THE BLOODY THING.
I quite like the 5 hrs simulated instrument in the ppl. I tell the students yes you should not get yourself into trouble but if it does happen this will help to get you out of it. Use the five hours to show how difficlt it is to control the thing on instruments. Get them to put it into an unusual attitude by closing their eyes and trying to fly the machine straight and level, when its in a nice unusual atitude get them to open their eyes and recover. I find this makes the point quite well. If they are doing unusually well pull the gyro CB. sure as eggs are eggs the one time you need it it will break!

If I find out one of my students flys into IMC I will bloody:ugh::{
Be safe

I've been reading this with great interest.

This particular subject does feature very early in the safety evenings.

I think that some of the problems we have in the UK, are

• a lack of understanding of the dangers of going IMC in an unstabilised helicopter (single or twin)
• Inadequate training on CPL courses (by people who have no instrument experience)
• A lack of any decision making training whatsoever.
• Over confident students being 'trained' to fly on instruments (so they think)
• A lack of any formal training in the UK weather, by someone more qualified than an FI.

When you read this its sounds like I am having a dig at instructors, but I am not. I have been at both ends of the scale where I am allowed to teach instruments and radio nav to CPL students (when I have no instrument experience myself). I have been allowed to teach Met to PPL students with no real experience of the UK weather. Now a bit older and perhaps no wiser, I believe the the CPL instrument training should be carried out by someone with actual instrument experience (not neccesarily a current IR perhaps previous military).

I think the 5 hrs instrument is a red herring, its generally taught by the wrong people, under foggles which are hardly the most restricitive things in the world (yes its harder, but nowhere near as hard as with screens or actual IMC).

I've just got back into R22 flying after a couple of years off the type, and am not surprised that half the gyro instruments in the ones I've been in are u/s, not completely but they do lose their alignment quite quickly, I can only assume that this is due to the environment they get operated in (training doing EOLS, and being left running during startup and shutdown).

We will hopefully have the Met Office aviation forecasters running some courses for helicopter pilots soon, I am just trying to get it sorted if anyone is interested (I suggest we discuss that in the heli safety thread or a new one and not here to avoid too much thread creep.) Thread on this can be found here.

The R22 is a brilliant helicopter if you use it for what it was designed for, if you use it outside that environment it might (and going IMC it probably will) bite you in the arse.

Gary

Perhaps if we where allowed to do off airfield landings with students they might feel better about landing in fields in bad weather? the recent gold cup was a good example of knowing your limits as on the saturday we had 5 helis to recover from verious fileds as the pilots reached there limits and did not think twice about landing where they were.

Normaly the first time PPL's land off airfield is after they have passed maybe we should be paying more attention to teaching these guys to go in and out the places they are likely to visit, which might also make them more happy landing in places other than airfields.

CrazyBroadSword

Couldn't agree more, one of the things that we are trying to encourage through helicopter safety is post PPL training for the things that are actually useful in the real world.

I can't see us getting the JAA syllabus changed, but if schools were to apply a post licence pre hire syllabus or pilots asked for it there is nothing to stop it.

Sorry for going of thread again, but its all about training to stay alive.

Gary

I know of an examiner in the UK who has recently flown IMC with PPL(H)s in unstabilised singles. The PPL(H)s were tasked with the VMC foggles-on 180 deg turn and both made a satisfactory effort. Straight afterwards, the aircraft was climbed into cloud and the PPLs asked to once again perform the 180 deg turn. Both effectively lost control after about 20 to 30 seconds!

Don't ever go IMC in an unstabilised single! Do whatever is necessary to stay out of cloud, even if that means temporarily breaking Rule 5. No-one, to my knowledge, has ever crashed into the ANO!

Fly safe

JJ

landing off airfield..
 

I second that. Post PPL I went to New Zealand just to learn the basics of non airfield landings/flying. After PPL I felt unprepared for this environment (and I had great instructors. Just the syllabus is lacking....

I think the 5 hr PPl instrmnts was useful and made me safer at the time.... but the above point should be impressed on students equally strongly... i.e What you don't know is this.. etc etc... e.g keeping yr speed/failing AH etc.

Here is another, the good old ABC news.

The date of this report was 10/09/2004
QLD Country Hour Summary
FQLD Country Hour Summary
Friday 10/09/2004
riday 10/09/2004