L@ser & searchlight attacks on aircraft (incl prison sentences on offenders)
 

On consecutive nights (two instances I heard) heli pilots heading for runway 34 at ABZ have reported a green light being shone at them as they have approached the airport from the east.

Seems the change from BST to GMT has brought out the freaks.

Sheer stupidity if it is one of these l@zer things & I hope whoever is doing it is caught soon, but if its from the housing estate around the Haudagain roundabout, may be difficult to pinpoint.

Can you protect your eyes from these things being shone at you?

I suggest you inform the local police. We are reported a person for doing the same to our air support unit. Person apprehended was found with a powerful green l@zer purchased from ebay. The message must get out to these people especially if the aircraft flown is single pilot.

Sometime last month an instructor of an R22 reported that he had been blinded by a green laser light near Aberdeen at night. Having spoken to him he said the student had to remain flying the aicraft into ABZ as he could not clearly see for about 5mins. Aircraft later returned to Peterculter.

I have had torches shined at the aircraft but lucky have never been affected by them. Some people are thick as sh*t.

TiP:mad:

Recently been in the market for a green laser I think I know where these new more powerful green lasers are coming from. I doubt it would be wise to post a link, but it isn't eBay.

They're what may well be a Class 3b, it comes with no sort of warnings or instructions and to be honest is far to powerful for use in your average lecturing situation (Night time range of a mile or so and a bright sunlight range of maybe 100 meters is just OTT).

In terms of eye protection, not really a chance. Testing mine on a few pairs of sunglasses it just goes straight through with no visible attenuation.

Quite frankly I was surprised that they were a) on sale b) easy to get hold of and c) so cheap. I'm sticking to an old class 2 red.

I have been told that alot of these green lasers on sale are used for star pointing... not pointing at aircraft!

As DAQ said, they are widely available and super cheap. I honestly can't think how authorities can go about preventing the sale of them and the proper use.

CAA envorcement agency are apparently starting a investigation into lasers being pointed at aircraft.

TiP:mad:

We had a problem with high-powered torches (fortunately not as bad as lasers, but still distracting when you are in a high-workload situation). Looked into legal aspects - choice is CAA prosecution for showing lights with intent to endanger aircraft (cant remember exact wording, as I dont have the ANO to hand), or police and CPS pressing a case with something more wishy-washy like anti-social behaviour. Our case fell through, because nobody was desperately interested in taking it forward. It will certainly help if there has been a precedent set with some prosecutions. best of luck!:D

Yes..thre have been precedents......one in Wilts a year or so ago when the guy was prosecuted for endangering a police helicopter and found guilty.I think it was the CAA who acted but it might have been the police themselves.i know they caught him red handed.

Wow SS, that is pretty shocking!!

Which part of the WMP patch was that? Do you get it often?, and when apprehended do the muppets involved realise what they were doing?, or is it a case of "I was pointing out the helicopter to my mate Dave your honour!" :ugh:

wow SS that pic is absolutely awful....that green light is not a nice thing at the best of times let alone on final approach....I avoid the Haudigain at the best of times driving(normally do it with my eyes closed...) but being based on the ground that pic shows us what you guys in the sky have to put up with!

Bloody hell, that's pretty shocking footage there SS! Glad you got the :mad: responsible.

S

Easy.....some DVD's are green




Link removed: silly thing to link to, given the nature of this thread :rolleyes:

Senior Pilot

There used to be a green one in the astronomy department at school that was used as a star pointer. The advantage was that you could see the full beam extending up, whereas the red you couldn't unless it was slightly misty, in which case nobody would be doing astronomy anyway.
Looking on eBay I'm suprised how cheap they are. To be honest I never considered the effect they'd have on aircraft at the time either.
There's also another website that advertise both red and green lasers as a kind of survival flare. The beam is an elongated ellipse (almost a line) rather than a normal pointer (a very narrow conical beam) to 'fan' the surroundings. I can't say I'd like to have any one of them shone in my eyes while flying at night!

L@ser & searchlights: Jail for l@zer attack on helicopter
 

MyFox Phoenix | Green l@zer sends teen to jail
It is not only in the north they are everywhere, at least the police caught this one
Further comment from police
www.kfyi.com/cc-common/mainheadlines3.html?feed=118695&article=2978446

The CPS will not take these cases forward in our area. Last year we had a lad arrested and the final outcome was an £80 Public Order Fixed Penalty ticket!! They caught him in the act.
Tonight (1 hour ago) I got green l@zered over Norris Green in Liverpool. That is the 5th time in 4 days. We didn't even fly last night. It is not worth the hassle of trying to catch the little darlings. :ugh:

l@zers
 

We recently got one on video, the offender had the laser confiscated and received a caution. - seems to be the standard 'punishment'.

I do believe that these people only shine lasers at aircraft out of curiosity without understanding the hazard. Mind you we could just go away instead of circling their houses and taping them!

I am not night rated and hence my question comes from a position of ignorance rather than with a particular axe to grind.

In what way are these lasers dangerous to pilots ?
I understand that if you happen to be looking at the source and it is shined at your eyes then this is bad.
Are there other unpleasant effects ?

Thanks
TB

3 Blades,
When the light strikes the aircraft, it "Fills" every single tiny scratch in the perspex with bright green light which you cannot see through - that's before any light meets your retina. Personally, I think that fining the little s:mad:s is a waste of time. A more fitting answer would be to shine said laser into their eyes - from the rear!!!

Fortyodd2, thanks for the clarification. Nasty and dangerous indeed. I agree with your sentiments.

Novel approach Fourtyodd2 but think it may work, IF you require help:Ecall
It can only be time before there is an serious incident.
3 blades
Lasers can blind you, if they are of sufficient power, think there was a post from a pilot a few weeks ago saying he was l@zered and lost vision for a significant period (some minutes) hope no lasting damage to his eyes, luckily 2 pilot ship,
The problem appears to be there are numerous places selling High power lasers, to Drongos.
A link to laser site explaining classifications.
HowStuffWorks "How Lasers Work"

Lased in Flight? Don't Panic, no permanent harm
 

The panic over lasers is probably grounds for another myth, lasers are harmless except for the bother and distraction that they cause.

The unwarranted fear of permanent eye damage that pilots might harbor if lased might be more distracting than the light.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/34229.stm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laser_safety

Nick,
I agree with you that laser pens are quite harmless even at quite close range, however the lasers that are being used to target aircraft are the more powerful 'green lasers', the ones used in astronomy to point out celestial bodies. I don't know if these are any more dangerous, perhaps some one could enlighten me.
The other issue causing concern to the security forces (in my area, can't speak for others) is that Lasers can be used as rangefinders. In all probability it's kids being stupid but the possibility of terrorism cannot be discounted.
Hope this makes sense, as am in a rush to get to work.
Brom

From the Wikipedia article:

That's made my eyes ache just thinking about it. :eek:

A work colleague suffered significant discomfort and loss of vision for three days after a "pen laser" reflected off a shiny surface and struck his eye.

No myth there Mr Lappos - I witnessed the event and the injury at first hand.

PPNG

well a quick look on ebay shows 50mW green l@zers available for around £20 and 2-300mW l@zers for around £100 - £150.

The latter are classed IIIB, and according to wikipedia "l@zers in this class may cause damage if the beam enters the eye directly... l@zers in this category can cause permanent eye damage with exposures of 1/100th of a second or less depending on the strength of the l@zer. A diffuse reflection is generally not hazardous but specular reflections can be just as dangerous as direct exposures. Protective eyewear is recommended when direct beam viewing of Class IIIb l@zer may occur. l@zers at the high power end of this class may also present a fire hazard and can lightly burn skin."

Now if some little s**t shines one of those in my eyes when I'm flying I'm not gonna be happy!

Brom,
The Green Lasers are still <5MW, and are no higher in energy than the less visible red ones.

The panic that this thread embraces is simply awful.

"Loss of vision for 3 days" from a laser pointer hit in flight?? at what range - 200 meters, perhaps? Give me a break, ppng, I simply do not believe you, do you have something more than a war story to show it? Especially when the truly documented case, "Luttrulla & Hallisey (1999) describe a similar case, a 34 year old male who stared into the beam of a class IIIa red laser for 30 to 60 seconds, causing temporary central scotoma and visual field loss. His eyesight fully recovered within 2 days, at the time of his eye exam." ppng, tell the Doctor who certified your friend's event to write a paper on it and make a name for himself, since an airborne hit is worse than staring at a laser you hold in your hands!

I reiterate, the panic a pilot can feel if he believes that he has been permanently blinded, based on the myths this thread propagates might be worse than the actual flash of light, as bothersome and annoying as it is.

I edited this to add that if folks are using industrial lasers at hundreds of mw strength, the effects are far more serious, and all bets are off, but I would also bet that pointers at <5mw are the culprit in these cases we are discussing. BTW, the Comanche design addresses these issues, and much was learned back than about protecting crews from truly dangerous laser light - the laser that can actually blind you at hundreds of meters is no hand held device, believe me!

I've heard a commercial airliner reporting to ATC that he was under attack from a powerful green lazer and he was in the descent at around 7000ft at the time! Must have been a bloody big pen. I suppose the main gripe is that, when you are going about your lawful business trying to lock up baddies it is very distracting (with all of the inherent dangers that can bring) and definately annoying when some little oik starts playing laze the helicopter. I would imagine that a foot bobbie trying to carry out his duties would get a grip of, and have something to say to, anyone in his vicinity who was shining something as harmless as a torch in his mush as he went about his job!

As one of the pilots 'lazed' the other week I'm reasonably well qualified to comment.

Green laser - seen from about 4 miles initially - very definitely directed at the aircraft.

In my case the light caused mild 'brown-out' as you can get after NVG use.

No idea of laser power but if you look here - www.gyroscope.com - you will see you can buy anything up to 100 MW without too much difficulty.

Police are actively following up as they are concerned in case it's pre-targeting. If you do experience this please ensure you report it to ATC who will then info the police.

This is a reply from the MOD experts after I was lased? about a month ago.


I have shown the clip to laser experts at DSTL and we feel that the device in question is a laser. The beam is very narrow and has no side lobes that would be expected if a powerful hand held lamp was used.

The pure green colour strongly suggests that it is doubled neodymium at a wavelength of around 530nm. Hand held lasers of this frequency (colour) are readily available.

These hand held lasers have a beam divergence of about 1mrad (milli-radian) and this is typical of lasers readily available over the internet. At a distance of 1.4 miles (say 2.5kms) these produce a laser ‘splash’ of about 2.5m diameter, enough to fill the cockpit of a medium size helicopter.

The laser is certainly more than a typical presentation pointer. A CCD camera at a range of 2.5kms would be dazzled by a 50 to100mW laser at night. As the helicopter was operating in an urban environment the effect of the urban lighting would reduce the camera aperture which would indicate that the laser was probably nearer to the 100mW. Our assessment is that this likely to be a 100mwish laser operating at 532nm. Such a laser would have an NOHD (Nominal Ocular Hazard Distance – the distance at which you could view the beam without risk of eye damage. It would be very uncomfortable. Any closer to the laser increases the risk of eye damage) 70m and would definitely cause eye damage at about 25m. This is all based on experience and It would be very difficult to prove any of this from the video evidence alone. We would need to know more about the ambient illumination, particular content of the atmosphere and the camera being used.


Shaun

Well, let's look at the math. 100mw over a circle 2.5m in diameter gives a power of 2 microwatts per square mm. The iris of the eye can open to 7mm at night, which is 38 square mm. The total power to the eye is then 77 microwatts, or 0.077 mw. Not enough to cause permanant damage, I think.
(Don't do math before lunch. Previous version of this post was in error)

Green l@zer safety glasses for 532nm.
 

I have no idea whether these effect normal vision, but the lens appears transparent from the page:
l@zer Safety Goggles (532nm) - From Gyroscope.com -

They might be useful for persistant problems.

Industrial welding CO2 and YAG l@zers (definately not hand held) would quite happily cut a car or helicopter in half if beam focused accurately enough for long enough. However the beam operates well into the infra-red, and you actually can't see it directly! You would likely never know what caused the damage.

I did not think there would be so much interest.
Only posted due to personal lamping, not laser & it was nice to hear some get caught.
Nice to know that the smaller units will not blind us just degrade our night vision for a while, great if you are flying in urban environment, with other traffic around you (news ships & police) leaves me with a real relaxed feeling, Nick I am interested to read your links, but if night vision can be degraded by lasers of 5Mw a 2\300Mw is going to have a significantly greater effect.
www.saao.ac.za/~wpk/laser/index.html
and another 2\300Mw and pulsed www.wickedlasers.com/lasers/Spyder_II_GX-26-0.html
This is without spending time at it
I think Nick is saying that as with all beams distance \ air quality will reduce their effective power. At a distance determined by the laser power the effect will vary, it is at low level and high work load + darkness that the effect will be worst, the jobs that spring to mind are Police,low over built up arias SAR again low with high work load and any helios\aircraft landing

We know lasers can be harmful to the eye and one problem is some if not many of the handheld lasers coming out of ... well, one big country often do not comply with standards. They present stronger beams than what they are certified for and some easily exceed the limits of Class 1.
Red lasers are the considered the least harmful but then you get into the green lasers. More powerful.. use more power and can cause more damage.
Before you just write off a laser as some kid with a handheld and not worth your worry, visit this website.
http://www.laserinstitute.org/public...r_safety_info/
A second site
http://www.microscopyu.com/articles/...sersafety.html

More
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laser_pointer

And take every beam serious. You never know.

Nick, you are assuming the lasers are within the limits of class 1 and tests have shown many Chinese lasers exceed those limits by a considerable margin.

But hey... if you want to, go ahead and stare.. doing a little risk management, let's see..

It is a myth so there is no risk but the upside is nothing..

It is assumed to be a legal green laser, it is not and the downside is possible loss of vision.

Myth or not, I will avert my eyes. No hysteria.. just a little risk management.

Green one...
 

My son just came home from a week with his mother in Thailand. In his luggage is a green laser, purchased in Pataya (or whatever the place is called) labelled "30mW, 532nm". It is powered by two AAA size batteries, and let me tell you, the thing shines!

We pointed it at our church across the bay, a distance of slightly less than a kilometer, and see a spot no more than an inch or two in diameter! How's that for collimation and coherence? I have never seen a LED-based laser with such properties.

So, rest assured. You can get these thingies with really high power really cheap - he paid £22 for it!

Needless to say, he has been given a lecture about where to point it and where to not point it...

/perf

Couple faces prison time for l@zer use
 

Bakersfield Eyewitness News:

www.eyeoutforyou.com/home/12580151.html
US take it seriously

FBI charge couple for lasing helicopter
 

http://sacramento.fbi.gov/dojpressre...7/sc121707.pdf
According to the federal criminal complaint filed on December 13, on November 8, 2007, at about
10:55 p.m., a green laser beam illuminated the cockpit of a Kern County Sheriff’s Department helicopter,
which was flying at 500 feet above ground level during routine patrol in Bakersfield, California. When the
light hit the cockpit, it disoriented the Kern County Sheriff’s pilot, causing pain and discomfort in his eyes
for a couple of hours. Lasers, an acronym for Light Amplification by Stimulated Emission of Radiation,
pose a safety hazard to flight operations. The focused beams of a laser light remain powerful at extended
viewing distances and can expose pilots to radiation levels above those considered to be flight safe. Brief
exposure to even a relatively low-powered laser beam can cause discomfort and temporary visual
impairments, such as glare, flash blind, and afterimages.
The pilot and a tactical observer were able to pinpoint the origin of the laser beam at DOOLEY’s
Bakersfield residence, where SNOW occasionally stayed. On November 27, task force members
executed a federal search warrant, locating a hand-held green laser device in DOOLEY’s pickup truck and
a red laser device in his home. Both DOOLEY and SNOW later admitted they had used the green laser
device on the night of the incident. SNOW told investigating agents that she and DOOLEY were standing
in the driveway on November 8 and “taking turns shining the laser around watching the tracers in the
sky.”

ABC TV Perth:

http://www.abc.net.au/reslib/200803/r233611_936550.jpg


:D :ok:

l@zer & searchlight attacks on pilots: merged threads
 

Banker jailed for dazzling helicopter pilot - Times Online

What a 'merchant banker'... :mad:



PS But nice to see that the reporting is as accurate as ever... "Snaresbrook Crown Court was told that the helicopter was about to land on top of the Vanguard building in October 2006. The helipad often accommodates City figures who want quick access to Canary Wharf." :ugh:

Nice to see the courts handing out suitable sentence for a change.

Some of the "Your Comments" are laughable too :rolleyes:

Still better than the couple of inches this story got in The Sun today, who used a file photo of an R44 :hmm: