Pilot Exiting While Rotors Turning
 

During a recent trip to a small Caribbean island near Venezuala I watched the local pleasure flight pilot exit an R44 with the rotors still turning at what seemed to me to be quite a high speed. They continued for several minutes in very breezy conditions. This seemed reckless to me given the heli was surrounded by water also. Does anyone know of any incidents when this sloppy approach has caused problems? I guess it wasn't his heli?
Incidently, on his next flight he didn't do a walkaround or sprag clutch check before lifting. Decided not to fly with him.

Rotors Running
 

gOlfer

You don't say in your thread if the engine had been shut down. If the aircraft is fitted with a rotor brake you should always shut down and bring the rotors to a stop before leaving the controls. I know of at least 2 instances when this wasn't done. The first involved the partial scalping of a passenger who was being guided out of the disc area by a pilot who had not shutdown his aircraft. The autopilot had not been disengaged and had unknown to the pilot motored the disc forwards.:ouch:

The second occasion occurred at Battersea Heliport when a "celebrity" pilot left the controls with engine running to assist with passenger unloading. Needless to say he received the mother of all rollickings from ATC. :=

Both incidents were caused by a desire to save time. It ain't worth it.

RS

Yes the engine was shut down but the blade sail was quite significant in the breeze. Being an R44 it was relying on the frictions to hold the controls in place, presumably a strong gust could move the stick, tilt the disc and good bye tail?

Hope it didn't stress your holiday.

I have heard of two occasions of the pilot leaving the cockpit with rotors turning with frictions tightened. A Jet Ranger pilot had to unload the baggage bay after landing on a rig, he opened the baggage bay door, removed the contents and when closing the door pushed too hard and the a/c started to yaw and eventually went over the side of the rig into the sea, I don't know how he got home. The second case was during a Bell 212 ferry to Nigeria, the battery temperature warning system indicated an overheat, they landed near a lake and with rotors running etc., the pilot and engineer removed the battery and placed it in the lake and then carried on with the ferry, arranging for a battery to be shipped out to them.

Easy to fix that.....dont fly Bell products then :E

Was it Aruba by any chance??

pilot exiting whilst rotors turning
 

Well I never,but "HEY you never, can be two carrfull though, Keep safe thats what I say.

I saw several instances of 'blades turning and no pilot', while in New Zealand. I actually watched one pilot wash down his Jet ranger, eat his lunch prior to climbing back into his still running a/c. I presume very secure and positive locks are fitted and perhaps the regs are not the same as the UK.
Clearly the concept seems to work for them!

When I was doing ag work it was the norm - sometimes you'd be working by yourself, filling your own tanks among other things.

Never at flight rpm, and always with a positive collective lock (not just collective friction) in addition to cyclic friction. Never had any trouble, nor did anyone else I worked with.

There weren't any non-crew people around to walk into a blade, so it was an acceptable risk in this situation.

The ANO says:

'An operator must ensure that a helicopter rotor is not turned under
power without a qualified pilot at the controls.'

It would therefore be legally acceptable in the UK whether wise or not.

BHenderson

Sorry for nitpicking but the ANO actually says There is a common misconception that it says what you posted. Whilst it is similar, its not quite the same. If the purpose is not to go flying then seems it is still acceptable for students to start helicopters. Also allows non-pilot engineers to carry out ground runs.

I am sure that in this thread the intention would be to then go flying, so the ANO def would still apply. Knowing where to find some of the minutae can be handy sometimes.

I am not trying to be an arse, just point something out.

I can't express an opinion as to whether its sensible to leave a helicopter rotors running, as I am UK based and we don't tend to do it. But the rest of the world seems to manage quite happily without an inordinate number of accidents.

What other countries than Australia and Canada, and I think the USA is it a normal practice ?

Gary

Okay okay, if it really bothers you that much what somebody else does then go and hibernate. I drove my car on the motorway at 80mph and it is killing me knowing that on a drivers spotters website I am being condenmed as a lunatic but hey, life goes on.

Getting out the cab with rotors running is not something I have done or will do but people do do it and on their head be it (or maybe off with their head).

Is this topic that serious that we must start a campaign against anyone who has a left a chopper with the blades turning.

Calm down and get a life.

An experienced Bell 47 AG operator I know says he always jumps out after engine start to check for oil, hydraulic or fuel leaks during the warm up. Seems like a reasonable thing to me when operating with hard worked machines. Better than discovering a problem while airborne surely.

I fly tourist's during the of NZ summer season, and we land at 7000amsl on the top of the glaciers t let the tourists get out and have a walk on the snow. Now we leave the machines running the whole time, for a few good reasons.
1: Up there the weather can change really fast, it always amazes me just how fast. You can go from a picture perfect day to having cloud rolling in a matter of minutes and then the whole valley is gone...but then it can clear just as fast. So I dont really want to get stuck up there with the pax, so if it turns, we can bundle them in and get going again.
2: On a good day, we can do over 20 flights up there, so shutting down every 20-40 mins seems pointless, plus costly. Also if you cant restart.....see above. PLus refueling, seeing we only carry upto 56%, and dont ever go below 20%, it takes hardly anytime to refuel so again its easier to leave it running.

Now before anyone jumps up and down saying it only takes 30 sec to shutdown....we operate Super D's and D2's....which have a 2 min cool down time. I have refueled in that time.

It is not without its risks, but careful pax managment and proper safety briefings then the risk is reduced vastly.

cheers all

Hughesy

Back in 1968, the US Army taught students to friction the controls at idle and get out to do a solo area recon for confined area practice! The bet was this was better than having us shutdown and then fail to restart, with the ensuing goat-rope to recover all the stranded helos!

Nov 9 incident NJ
 

Wind gust



MORRISTOWN - A helicopter pilot died this afternoon in an apparent freak accident, authorities said.

The pilot had stopped to refuel his chartered helicopter at Morristown Air Service on Old Highway 11E around 3:30 p.m. when the top rotor blade struck him and cut off the top of his head, Morristown Police Department Lt. Michelle Jones said. He died at the scene.

The man's name, age and destination weren't immediately available.

The helicopter carried two passengers from West Virginia, police spokeswoman Bonnie Langdon said. They had gone inside the airport, and the pilot had paid for the fuel and was climbing back into the helicopter when the blade hit him, police said.

The Federal Aviation Administration has been called in to investigate the death.

Gary I think we have crossed wires. Golfer in his original post stated that the engine had been shut down. Now in the UK according to the ANO, it is acceptable to get out in this instance. If the engine was running however the ANO does not allow this. Simple.

So how do you suppose student fly solo?? :ugh:

212man

Thats the bit that causes arguments in flying schools around the country.

How does a solo student start up on his own ? Last instructor seminar I was at, this caused a it of debate, and the FIEs opinion was that until someone has completed their first solo, they can't start the helicopter on their own, after that they are suitably qualified.

I think it is left open to interpretation which does none of us any favours.
Edited to Add, Article 26 looks clearer than the last time I read and seems to have been reworded and now reads like it allows solo students to do what was causing all the confusion when they first reworded article 50.

I've edited this again to stop the entire thread going off on a tangent. I find no evidence of changes to article 26, like I originally thought had happened , and on reading it again today it seems pretty clear in its intentions.

Here is a link to the thread were the confusion over this was discussed earlier this year http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthr...r+rotor&page=2

GS

In days gone by it was accepted normal practice at a local school to leave fuel injected aircraft running, with the clutch disengaged for quite long periods between flights, blades going round but not under direct power. This was because they are not easy to restart when hot. Engine running refueling was also normal practice.
It was not unusual to see a couple of unattended, running aircraft. The type in question did not rely on friction to hold the cyclic central.

The practice has now stopped I believe at the request of the airport operator. They must have done a risk assesment and didnt like it. As far as I know it never caused any problems. It just made one careful on the apron.:ooh:

I'm sure many other PPRuNers will have seen this too.

Gaseous - are you talking about rotors running refuels on piston-engined training aircraft? If so, I presume that's Robbies, Enstroms, H200 or Bell47. Don't they all have their tanks "up top"?

The danger there if you have a fuel spill and fuel ends up over the engine / exhaust. I could understand taking that risk out in the boonies with the chance of the engine not starting and you getting eaten by dingoes, but for training - and on your home field?

JimBall

No it didn't stress my holiday, just meant I had to stay in the bar and not go flying! Had a great holiday in any event.

BVGS
You got it.

Rotors turning
 

At one time we actually had an option on the S76A so you could do this! Small flip out fork from under the instrument panel that you velcro'd the cyclic into... This was prompted by a VIP aircraft that came into the Service Center one fine day....when he exited the aircraft with rotors turning at 100% there wasn't a ground crew man in sight to greet him!!:=

Pofman
 

If subject to JAR-OPS 3, then Subpart D JAR-OPS 3.210(d) applies.

An operator shall not permit a helicopter rotor to be turned under power without a qualified pilot at the controls.

Flaxton. Correct on all counts. Presumably, the commercial pressure to keep aircraft flying determined the policy. I'm guessing as I was a student. Some pistons really can be impossible to restart when hot.

I didnt lose any sleep over it.

I am quite happy to do an engine running refuel on my Enstrom. I Just make sure I dont spill any.

I stopped in to see if I could get a job flying tours in Tennessee. They
had a 206 sitting on the pad idling unattended for at least 45 minutes.
They thought engine cycles cost more than fuel. It was still running
when I left. Didn't have any Robinson time, so no job.

I've flown with these guys in aruba and I have seen them leave the heli while the rotors were still turning but they had almost stopped. The one thing that did make me feel uneasy was that the pilot had the carb heat locked down, ie no carb heat at any point during the flight or landing. really didn't like that. was there 4 weeks ago and decided not to go up again, partly because I'd done it a few times already and partly 'cause I didn't enjoy the last flight as my eye was on the carb heat guage. When quized he said that it wasn't really applicable due to their climate, the flight was uneventful and we landed wuth no carb heat and all was well....apart from my heart! My advice and advice I was given while training, if in doubt the answers NO!

Glad you enjoyed Aruba.....great place!

i'm surprised at the difference in outlook between the uk and canada...here it is common practice (though avoided if possible) and even approved in our company operations manual. i feel it is safe to do so with the frictions on at idle, obviously within reasonable wind limits a decent landing site. i suppose a large part of the reason for it being so common over here is the inaccessability of the landing sites we use.

Somepitch,
Well said:D:D:D
The 'British Outlook' pervades all aspects of British society - especially the workplace. As a nation we are so risk averse, paranoid, willing to be ruled, threatened, regulated, overtaxed and generally ordered obout that we are conditioned to condemn and generally flap about over any practice that mildy offends us. So many times I come across the attitude that "there ought to be a law against it - and if there isnt we'll make one up anyway". It rears its ugly head on PPRuNE regularly.
Rant over.
Phil, Anarchist.

BVGS
Aruba is great and I will return (3rd time) but won't be flying with Aruba Helicopters after what I witnessed and you confirmed. Not just the rotors turning bit but no pre flights checks either. An accident waiting to happen?

Gaseous
So do you abandon your own Enstrom once you've swithched the engine off with rotors still whizzing?

Somepitch
I don't understand the link you make between inaccessible landing sites and abandonong ship with rotors turning. Can you explain?

Occasionally in private when there is no risk to anyone but me. There is minimal, if any, risk to the aircraft which I am comfortable with. Sitting in it doesnt reduce that risk.

I wouldnt do it in a Robbie as it relies on the frictions holding to prevent damage plus the brake makes the process quick enough. There is no brake on the Enstrom,the blades are heavy and it takes a long time to stop.

Never when pax or onlookers present or at a public site, although I would get out if errant trespassers or animals put themselves at risk. Im sure shooing them off is safer than waving from the cockpit while steadfastly holding the cyclic in the middle. Its nice to know the aircraft wont self destruct if this were ever required.

As I said, it used to be standard practice at a local school until comparatively recently. Done it plenty of times at that particular airport but not anymore.

************************************************** ******************************
** Report created 11/16/2007 Record 1 **
************************************************** ******************************

IDENTIFICATION
Regis#: 555BH Make/Model: B407 Description: Bell 407
Date: 11/09/2007 Time: 2110

Event Type: Accident Highest Injury: Fatal Mid Air: N Missing: N
Damage: Unknown

LOCATION
City: MORRISTOWN State: TN Country: US

DESCRIPTION
N555BH, A BELL 407 ROTORCRAFT, WHILE STANDING WITH ROTOR STILL RUNNING, THE
PILOT WALKED INTO THE TURNING MAIN ROTOR AND WAS FATALLY INJURED,
MORRISTOWN, TN

INJURY DATA Total Fatal: 1
# Crew: 1 Fat: 1 Ser: 0 Min: 0 Unk:
# Pass: 0 Fat: 0 Ser: 0 Min: 0 Unk:
# Grnd: Fat: 0 Ser: 0 Min: 0 Unk:

WEATHER: NOT REPORTED

OTHER DATA
Activity: Unknown Phase: Standing Operation: OTHER


FAA FSDO: NASHVILLE, TN (SO03) Entry date: 11/13/2007

There are plenty more like that one too. Perhaps the most graphic and relevant to the title of this thread:

Whether you do or don't is up to ones own risk tolerance but its clear that moving under the disk in motion is not without peril. Its a bit like crossing the road. With care it can be accomplished reliably and safely but get it wrong and you can end up very dead.

I wonder how one is to unload the passengers?
Do I have to shut down and wait for the blades to stop with every load?
If I am sitting in the heli while the blades stop turning is that going to stop the blade sail? (with no rotor brake)
Not sure how I would go about shutting down when doing a hover exit/entry?

Go fly planes, they like all the rules!

This is what I was taught.
Preferably with everything stopped. This is the only way my wife will do it.
If it must be rotors running, do it with RRPM at flying speed, pax approaches in line of sight of pilot - not on a slope, and at a pre arranged signal from pilot. Pax keeps head down, pilot keeps tip plane up. Keep eye contact. Pax gets in. Do not allow boarding at idle as the tip plane will be much lower and the pilot cannot control it. Getting them out is pretty much the reverse. It may be different for other types.
Blade sail? With an Enstrom once the grips are on the droop stops the pilot has no control over the rotor. You can do what you like with the cyclic it makes little difference. It takes a big gust to upset an Enstrom rotor.
With a teetering head one does ones best with the cyclic and its in the lap of the gods.

Not a rotorhead but this thread reminded me of a story I heard many moons ago.

A Heliski pilot in the Alps had dropped of his pax but his base could not raise him on the radio. Another chopper was sent up to look for him and they found the pilots body by the tail rotor, which he seemed to have walked through. There was some speculation that he may have got out for a slash.

Possibly just one of those "stories" that go around?

Err, what?

Not in the helicopter I currently fly...nor any of the ones I've ever flown.

Sounds like he got one.

FH1100, just to clarify,

Tip plane path = a flat disc traced in the air by the spinning rotor blade tips.
I'm sure you know that.

It is nearer the ground at idle RPM because the blades droop. It is therefore more likely to lop your nut off. Also cyclic control is not effective as the blades are not flying.
unless there is no gravity in Pensacola;)

edit: It occured to me that if you fly a jet powered thingy (FH1100 perhaps)the idle speed may be significantly higher than a piston Enstrom. I dont know about jets and I did qualify it by saying it may be different for other types.

An Enstrom at idle with the clutch disengaged will be doing about 40-60 RRPM depending on how it is set up. Not enough to lift the blades off the stops but enough to give you a fair headache.

Ground resonance...
 

I recall discussions of said practice (leaving the machine with rotors turning under power) during basic flight training. The general idea was to NOT leave a machine subject to gound resonance with rotors turning under power. Machines not subject to ground resonance was considered OK to leave. I guess it makes sense, and in my humble opinion it is worse to leave it with rotors spinning down with engine shut down because of the risk of blade drooping and sailing.

If my memory serves me correctly, machines with semi-rigid or rigid rotor heads can not get into a state of ground resonance, while fully articulated can (hence the oleo dampers on the 500, 300, enstroms and what have you, and the abscence of dampers on the Bo105 and the 206).

Point me in the general direction if I'm in over my head in this...

/p