UK CAA Fees Consultation
 

As the harsh reality of ending cross-subsidy continues, the CAA has published a consultation document about its new SRG fees. These will be put in place next April unless our industry wakes up and responds appropriately. That means everyone in UK aviation. These new fees affect personnel licensing, airfields, ATCOs, all of GA.

A Rule 5 Exemption goes from £100 to £380......some airfields face an 88% increase in their fees.....and AOC holders are hit hard.

Sticky this ? Circulate this. Take the time to read - there are some lengthy docs - but a lot of the content is repetitive.

See CAA Consultation here and sign-up with a response before Dec 14.

What a bunch of robbing :mad:. This will effect alot of friends in GA. Shame on the CAA:=

CAA fees consultation
 

Could I be forgiven for thinking this is just a last ditch attempt to improve the CAA pension/redundancy pot before EASA takes over.
Somebody please tell me I'm wrong! Over to you JimL.
With fraternal greetings,
ambi:ok:

:eek:

Cash And Angst... at it again. Robbing :mad:.

They really want to make sure only the big boys (BA, FR, etc) can afford to fly don't they - at least that is how it seems.

I am quite surprised they haven't found some tenuous environmental angle they can hang the new increases on, so we are made to feel guilty for questioning it!!

I agree the CAA are charging to much but I might be naive here could someone give me a suggestion on how me as a mere line-pilot can do anything to influence the CAA?

Letter to the MP?
Letter to the CAA?
Letter to ?

March on the CAA?

I think there a re a lot of people like me who need some guidance on this after all we do have a life outside of this.

Cheers

Then again I might just be a simpleton.

To answer Brilliant Stuff - a "mere" line pilot. Surely you think better of yourself than that ? You have the ability to communicate with your employer - isn't it worth drawing their attention to these proposals ?

In any case, you could sign-up to the CAA Consultation and deliver a response - this would take only a few minutes. That's why they've put it online.

The Government has announced a root and branch review of the CAA - it's happening now. Your employer, your airfield base, your ATCO or SATCO should be ensuring that the Government hears your concerns. Naturally, the Dept for Transport isn't going to hear individuals - but they will have to pay attention if whole bodies complain.

On the fees issue, BHAB have rolled-over and accepted it all. How do they justify that to their Members ?

Bhab Benefits
 

Can anybody explain what BHAB actually do now for their members, with EASA slowly taking over.

I have never encountered anybody who has ever said that BHAB have done anything for them.

However I now look forward to be well informed.

Thank you again Jim Ball for pointing me into the right direction.:ok:

I will pass on the word.

Well, as much as I think we should all get together and make ourselves heard, that fact is that the CAA do NOT want people to become pilots and they do NOT want GA in this country.

In 20 years time when all the small operators have closed, all the airfields have been sold off for property development and everyone (not just the majority) goes abroad to train/fly, we will look back and wonder how it ended up this way.

Certainly in the seven years I have been involved in the UK heli industry I have seen it increasingly become the preserve of the well heeled private owners/pilots, the well heeled self-funded IR pilots, or ex-mil pilots.

UK AOC fees - CAA Consultation
 

The CAA Consultation paper for the proposed astronomic hike of UK SRG fees is set to close on December 12th.

If we don't stand up and be counted now these fees will be pushed through and the whole industry will suffer.

Implementation of the proposed price structure will put operators out of business. The costs are not sustainable by operators, some are facing an increase of 400%, (£7500 to £30,000 per annum, check my maths please!?!)

It will encourage Illegal Charter and Debenture Operations.

If you are in any way involved with the UK Helicopter Industry, please post a comment using the online submissions system with the following link:
CAA Charges Consultation | Consultations | CAA

The document is the SRG Charges 2009 / 10 Consultation document, and we are particularly interested in Paragraph 4.1.2.

Please, Please, Please get involved whatever your link to the industry. Like the Age discrimination battle, this needs to be taken back to the CAA and we all need to stand up and be counted. Whilst you may rely on the BHA to represent the industry, and they DO DO A GREAT JOB, they only count as one vote, so please get involved.

Many Thanks,

QM

I've seen several emails about this in the last day or two.

I believe we all need to comment on the CAA web site as described above.

I've had an email from one of the operators with some very worrying numbers in it and I suspect it would put them out of business AOC wise.

I am putting together a spreadsheet based upon his figures and the AOC Charges documentation, I'll post it here tomorrow if anyone wants to try and calculate what the current suggested charges will cost them, but it doesn't look pretty.

We all need to act on this for what I believe is the good of the UK iindustry.

We only have until Dec 12 2008.

Top marks Qualityman for raising this in a public Forum.

GS

As someone who has had only peripheral contact with the CAA - I'd have to ask 'what value are they adding to safety?' and 'What value are these extra fees for?'

Every flying club should write to local MP & explaining the Sorrow:{ we feel for the poor pay and conditions the CAA :mad: have to endure, and the whole flying community will remember who to vote for next time.
Private flyers plank & rotary will be affected if MORE sites are closed & sold for development.
Consultation MY:=

and if we ALL didnt pay our fees for a year or so - how would the CAA fund prosecutions for us conducting illegal public transport etc for not having an AOC etc (because we didnt pay our charges for that piece of A4 paper) yet the operators continue to maintain high standards, SMS, etc?

Section 3 of the Consultation document is headed "SRG Financial Position". Some interesting words in there.

The most appalling feature I can see - and one which has been commented on by others more well versed in these matters than I - is that a SAFETY function needs to return a profit. The Treasury requires a 6% return on investment. This is the most anomalous thing I see.

And well done in reducing costs by 10% in the last 3 years but they could have tried harder - how about closing the canteen and getting a sandwich van to come round every morning !

Now the Government wants to help everyone stay afloat the CAA should do the same instead of the opposite. How are they going to make 6% if more AOCs go bust. Flawed business plan me thinks.

I spoke to Glenn from Elite this morning and he is happy for me to post his two letters which he has circulated around the industry on here. I've converted them from Word to Pdf but other than that they are unchanged.

It seems that industry organisations like the BHAB may only count as one voice (or so Glenn thinks) and he is encouraging everyone to go the CAA site and make comments as detailed above.

The first one from October is here.

The second one from yesterday is here here.

The intention is not to have a dig at the FOIs who as several have said on here before are a generally very decent bunch of chaps, but try and get the CAA to realise that if they strangle the industry financially they won't have anything left to regulate soon apart from some emergency services operators and a few super AOCs.

I doubt very much everyone will give up, but it hardly encourages the operators to play fair, how many will end up with foreign AOCs ?

How many will end up entering into lease operations, which will probably be legal but could (not will, but could) employ any unregulated idiot with a licence to do the flying, in perhaps non EASA machines which in turn will be cheaper to operate and maintain.

Its important and as Glenn alludes to if we do nothing we can hardly complain about it can we ?

Cheers Gary. just what I needed.

This is a very laid back industry . I get the impression people dont really care what is happening !! I have said many times that the industry needs to act to bring the caa to heel before they kill the goose ...but nothing happens :ugh: Why should i care , i dont have an aoc and never will have thankyou . You have all jumped when they have said jump . You have all filled in bollocks forms in triplicate . You have all accepted that it makes sense that i can fly att night and into Battersea in a single but you cannot ...why ?? The charter industry is close to dead and it is due to the operators around now being spineless and not standing up . There has just been a fuel hike by 50p a litre .....i know its not the caa but it has hardly got a mention on here yet a lot of you will lose your jobs because of it i promise you. That is an extra £100 per hour in a turbine give or take for anybody going on a private trip .
Wake up and see whats going on and DO something !!!! All aoc,s get together and STOP all payments to the caa until this is sorted . Just do lease flying for now with your main customers ....will they notice any difference ????

Nigelh, again you propose that everyone does things your way. Just do lease flying?? You mean ILLEGAL CHARTER??? You never cease to amaze me with some of your foolish comments.

I agree the CAA should not be self-regulated. This should be changed but I would only imagine government can do this? Correct me if i'm wrong.

Nigel

I believe that the Private Pleasure flying use of AVTUR by AOC operators is exempt from the recent fuel tax hike by virtue of

And a whole host of others circumstance which I don't need to quote which come in a defintion document form HMRC, and yes I know I need to get out more.

Helimut ...you always cheer me up being so predictable :ok: You are wrong ..lease flying is not illegal if done correctly and i have confirmation from the caa . You really need to be more proactive or you may lose your job/company as well . Where is that spirit that beat the germans ?? The CAA is just a bunch of suits trying to stop aviation ..they shouldnt be too hard to beat !!
I flew into Battersea the other night and had to fill a form in saying private or commercial for the fueling . What determines what it is ? How does the pilot , who signs , know what the flight is for sure ? What do you do when you fill the aircraft to do a charter or commercial flight and this is cancelled but the next flight is private ? Is ANYBODY paying this duty ??

Well chaps thanks to Glenn and Gary, leading me by the hand, I have managed to fill in the CAA online form. I got a reference number back which is in the 80s which would mean not a lot of people have done the online form.

The BHAB should be fighting this with a bigger stick and what could GAPAN do?

Since we are not all members of one club/union etc. it is difficult to galvanise everyone.

I'm not saying lease flying is illegal, but doing commercial work under the guise of lease flying, is.
My understanding is that if a pilot is about to fly an aircraft, fully expecting it to be a commercial flight, then that's what he signs for, fuelling wise. Private, the same. What happens if that changes is there should be a notification of change. We all know that that would be like one of us speeding and telling the police about it afterwards. Not really going to happen. Not if you were in the car with me the other night you wouldn't tell anyway.:eek:(thats another story)

If lease flying accomplishes the same job as commercial flying, why have an aoc in the first place then?
the CAA will increase the charges anyway, no matter what you do. They are self regulating. Thats what people should be fighting against.

Helimut you sound like you have already lost the will to fight . So , if the caa are self governing ...lets change it ...lets all refuse to pay them until they become accountable and take due care of the people whose lives they preside over . If they are not paid they will be out of a job . If you pay them you will be out of a job . Make a choice . I will make a bet that over half of all aoc,s will be broke by end of next year and will close . ( apart from those owned by enthusiastic rich pilots who will bail them out)
The bull**** of paperwork and stupid laws that say that x landing area is unsuitable due to a fence 50 yrds away has to go . People have got to get a grip and take responsibility for their industry and take it out of the hands of these clowns . Lease work is commercial ...what do you mean that it would be illegal ? Someone leases a helicopter and uses it for their business ,that is commercial . All they cannot do is recharge the passengers which would make it technically public transport . If you know your business customers well that should not be a problem . Stop paying the caa and just look after your main clients and leave the dross of weddings etc which make no money anyway to someone else .
ps dont tell me you are one of those irresponsible people i see speeding below me on the motorway are you ?? shame on you.

I don't speed, normally. and it was dark, and the road was very quiet! Can't say more than that. :hmm:
Anyway, as it's the company I work for who pay the CAA fees to allow them to operate, oh, and my medical fees, and my licence rating/issue fees etc, I think the companies should be making more noise. They're the ones being screwed over.

We should be starting a group to have them regulated by external means. Nigelh, I agree with you totally about the stupidity of the regulations that some have to endure. It's definitely as if they want to phase out flying completely and yes, killing golden geese is definitely apt.

To try and illustrate the point I've spent most of tofay working on an Excel spreadsheet to calculate AOC costs.

It can be found here.

I have tested it as well as can be expected in about 10 hours and it does bear out the figures sent to me by some AOC holders.

The future predictions after next year are made on an assumption that nothing changes and the current proposed scheme of charges is implemented.

The important bits are to enter your current charges and your current fleet size of multi and single engine aircraft.

The current charges matter as I read the implication in the document that you may be charged according to what you were charged last year and two seemingly equal AOCs may end up paying different charges.

If anyone finds anything wrong with it let me know ASAP and I'l fix it.

Ignore the income and expenditure bits to do with operating aircraft, just the AOC bit has been tested.

You have the cost per hr coming in @£60 per hr on aoc charges alone by 2011 ? And that is on R44 ? What are the other costs imposed on you ? I know of some co,s whose fees are going up to £40k AND they have to pay to have extra staff do all the paperwork that is imposed ..thereby coming to probably £60k plus !!!! I guess you then have to add on all the extra courses that are so necessary ...dangerous goods , dunker, survival, first aid etc etc Dont get me wrong some of it is good and sensible but some is not . Where is the logic in a flight being deemed safe and acceptable for you and your wife and kids ...but not for the next door neighbour who chucks you £100 ?? You can all go into Battersea without floats ...but not him ..you can fly at night but he has to get a twin !!!! Daft:{ Most non self fly flying in the UK in singles is either lease or dodgy charter i would guess . The dodgy charters are just breaking the law and probably skimp on maintenance and are flown by a ppl or faa cpl but the lease flights are probably identical to the aoc ones ...ie same aircraft and same pilot . Where i am going is , why not get all these operators back into the fold with an aoc " lite" ...make them more accountable but without crippling them with costs and unwanted paper filling . I would be very happy to have an aoc on those terms and could then go out and market my services to the public and increase the hours flown . Bringing down the cost per aircraft but doubling the number paying would make total sense ...which is of course why it will never happen .:ugh: Sadly ( no offence ) a lot of you commercial pilots are not actually very commercial at all . You sit there and wait for a job . Go flying and come back and file papers and drink tea . ( especially if you are on a salary....) By the time you get off your arses to fight for your jobs they will be long gone and ,a bit like crop spraying ,...it will never be the same again .

To continue the theme....
In my previous life I got very used to people saying.."I pay your wages!!" usually as we were rolling around on the floor of the local ale house trying to avoid vomit and glass, but that's another story...:} The point is that we DO pay the wages of the CAA, perhaps its time to act in a way that will make them listen? As nigelh says if we don't give them our money how can the regulate and impose these industry destroying ideas on us?
IH

I think i can honestly put my hands up and admit there are a LOT of rules i dont understand !! Why there is no such thing as night vfr is one . If you understand then tell me ...if a lease flight is for a business purpose it is then a commercial flight ( with regard to fuel levy ) but is a private flight with regard to regs ?
I accept that a lot of what you say is correct in legal terms ...but do you think that all the paperwork pushed onto aoc,s helps safety ? As i said before it will very often be the same machine and same pilot doing private work . What you do appear to be advocating is the whole industry getting together with one voice ...but is thhat possible in such a fragmented industry as this ?? Or do we just bury our heads in the sand as we have always done in the past .

:(
1,115 views on this thread, and my ref number was in the very low 90's. Shame on you!!

Leftskidlow

Valid point, mine was 73 on Friday. Lets hope everyone else who this affects does something next week.

The thread Qualityman started on Friday was merged into an older one so that may skew the viewing figures somewhat.

GS

Add one more, 92 now.

Feeling of .............
 

I feel powerless.
Not because of apathy - I'm no. 093 on the CAA online gambit.
but because the CAA document contradicts itself at every turn.
If they must achieve a 6% ROCE then surely they should remind their Master that they too should receive a 'capital injection' or atleast a suspension during these difficult times.
We have loads of money to throw about - or did have when Gordon suddenly decided so cannot see the problem or why there is such a delay for such action?

There is a finite pool from where money can be milked from Aviation-related companies. At what point will the culling of these companies and CAA's 6%ROCE strategy conflict?

I feel powerless because it would appear that all the knowledgeable heads within higher echelons of our once industry-leading CAA are powerless.

RIP AOC and GA operations

Been through the consultation:uhoh: before in another industry, the questions were so skewed as to be a joke and to produce their required result, so they went ahead with the original plan, :{.
Filled out the form not much hope though (eighty something) not a lot for a whole industry.
What do you expect from a government that rates your tree house

Number 99!

Had rant at most of the things that affect me but I got lost in most of the forms towards the end!

Maybe they could SAVE 6% by getting rid of that subsidised canteen they have at CAA towers?
Maybe they could cut down on the amount or tea breaks they seem to always be taking when-ever I phone up for a question.


I am hoping that when EASA comes in we will have a means of complaing about our CAA and something will be done. They are a law to them selves at the moment and competion free.

HB999

For those who are interested I've stuck a page on the Griffin Site in which I've tried to be clinical about the issues and put some illustrations based upon data sent to me by a couple of AOC holders over the weekend.

It can be seen here

I thought it best to seperate it from this thread to keep the issues away from the opinions.

The AOC Charges tool does seem to work and has got all the ones correct we've tested it on up to now. I have however modified it this morning having been fed the scale of target charge percentage increases in the next few years ,this morning.

GS

Up to 106 now.
Kevin.

VeeAny.
Your post is aimed at AOC ,training schools, (commercial users), BUT this will affect all aviation, do not put off the private\business flyer from increasing the count.
Less airfields, less training schools, less chances to fly, BUT certainly a much higher cost to both commercial & private flying \ training .
The other way to look at things if you are strapped for cash you look for ways to stay in business, by cutting costs, people, buildings, put off new acquisitions, (a real help to stimulate the economy), or Maintenance, (I am not saying people will stop maintaining, but the pressure will be to do it faster so less AOG time, will it go till the next check rather than replace in know)
The CAA\ government does not seem to understand that industry has to find money from some where, the ever increasing overheads cannot be absorbed for ever.
We have exported whole industries due to cost, the world is changing we were told the city was our biggest earner!! this now appears to be somewhat off base, we need small to medium sized Company's to flourish not be pushed into the hands of the receivers
Rant over.:suspect: