|
Civilian Helicopter down in Iraq
Blackwater Aviation appears to have lost an aircraft with five persons aboard. Intial reports are all five killed. No other details yet.
I assume it is a Bell 412 although they are opeating MD-500's there. |
That helo is as "civilian" as Dick Cody is.
|
I think what you meant to say was 'condolences to those that perished and regards to the familes involved', Nick.
I know thats what I would have said first. |
Five dead in Iraq chopper crash
From correspondents in Washington January 24, 2007 07:41am Article from: Agence France-Presse Font size: + - Send this article: Print Email A HELICOPTER owned by the US security firm Blackwater USA crashed in Baghdad today, killing five people, a US defence official said. "A quick reaction force and Blackwater employees went to the crash scene and found the remains of five people," said the official, who asked not to be identified. The identity or nationality of the five was not immediately known, nor was the cause of the crash. The MH-6 helicopter crashed about 7.30pm AEDT yesterday in Baghdad's Rusafa districts, the official said. It came after 13 US troops were killed in the crash of a UH-60 Black Hawk helicopter on Saturday, north-east of Baghdad, which officials believe may have been shot down with a shoulder-fired surface to air missile. |
WG13, forgive the black humor. No dirsrespect intended, just stating the facts.
Those fellows fly a tough mission, they get paid a bunch, and have their eyes wide open as they do. And they'd be the first to understand why "civilian" is the wrong word, as well as to understand the risks they take. Here is a pair of tapes blackwater pilots have made - note that they call themselves Commandos, and that the second tape is the helo dropping off Blackwater snipers on a roof top, where they engage enemy targets: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VF2NvPMSrTg http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RZDcT...elated&search= |
Nick
I appreciate the black humor, thanks Every time there is any sort of accident reported on PPrune the bandwidth is taken up with messages of condolence and RIP type posts, often from people completely unconnected with the event. I myself (cynical bast..d) find them a bit superfluous and almost a case of posting for the sake of it. There are some exceptions but it seems a bit over the top to me on many occasions. I am not saying that all accidents resulting in loss of life are not a tragedy but do we raelly have to post public condolences in many cases for people not directly or in some cases not remotely known to us? I think that the posting of such can be trite and in many cases is best left unsaid. |
Aye, what Hippolite said.
Dave Blevins
Originally Posted by Hippolite
(Post 3086029)
Nick
I appreciate the black humor, thanks Every time there is any sort of accident reported on PPrune the bandwidth is taken up with messages of condolence and RIP type posts, often from people completely unconnected with the event. I myself (cynical bast..d) find them a bit superfluous and almost a case of posting for the sake of it. There are some exceptions but it seems a bit over the top to me on many occasions. I am not saying that all accidents resulting in loss of life are not a tragedy but do we raelly have to post public condolences in many cases for people not directly or in some cases not remotely known to us? I think that the posting of such can be trite and in many cases is best left unsaid. |
Aye Lads....they knew the risks...they volunteered...and except for enough NVG time....I might have been one of them. That does not mean they will not be missed or they do not have loved ones that will mourn their passing.
They were doing their bit in this fight against terrorism we have going on....seems they were at the cutting edge of things. Those folks have earned a reputation of going to the assistance of friendly troops in need of help in the past. I know of one occasion where they flew into a very nasty place and dropped ammunition to folks that really, really needed it....and then hauled out some wounded. A bit of banter is fine but let's remember what it is all about. Blackwater has lost 20+ people in Iraq. This ain't an offshore contract someplace. |
Curious that In the second video in the first few seconds you see a 530 hovering in space on the edge of the building when there is lots of room to land bit more forward more out of sight....just wondering if any miltary guys out there could answer the reasoning behind it ??
cheers SL |
Dummy
You must really be a dummy #13
those guys were mercenaries , and while its sad they died, fake condolences are not called for ! All these feelings for people you had no idea even existed show a need in you . |
Beyond shedding tears, I could ask this question, "Exactly how legal is it for paid mercenaries to be flying armed helicopters or let off on rooftops to kill people? Where is the chain of command, and what is international law in that respect?"
I could ask the same questions of people who are paid to go to Italy, walk down the street and then put a sandbag over someone's head, and then kidnap them to Turkey for some fun and games in a secret prison. For our international ppruners, I am not the only American who asks these questions, and not the only one who votes on what I know in my heart to be the shocking answers. |
Hi All,
i'm just curious who's baby "Blackwater" is. I never heard something about them before the George W Bush era. And how legal is this operation. Or is just someone playing "King of the world" and makes his own rules. And if, all the best wishes for my US Friends for 2008 elections. Things can only become better. I know the saying with the glass house and throwing stones. Germany also had better times:}. Always happy landings spencer17 |
Originally Posted by spencer17
(Post 3086564)
Hi All,
i'm just curious who's baby "Blackwater" is. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blackwater_USA I'll let others speculate as to the actual backers and intentions of Blackwater ops... :E |
@Bravo73
Thank you for the link ! spencer17 |
Originally Posted by feelerup
(Post 3086332)
............
those guys were mercenaries , and while its sad they died, fake condolences are not called for ! All these feelings for people you had no idea even existed show a need in you . |
private military contractors
Just curious, and not sure this is the appropriate forum to ask this question on or not, but who would take out contracts for companies like Blackwater? Are they employed by the US government, or private US companies with interests in Iraq? If they are employed by private companies, how much co-operation with the military would be involved?
|
This American sleeps better at night (figuratively and literally) knowing that organizations like Blackwater exist and operate, and that my government has the backbone to employee them.
My condolences to those that perished and regards to the familes involved. |
If one does a bit Google searching....one can find out all sorts of things about Blackwater the company, contracts, training programs, and aviation assets. If one is really good....one can subscribe to their weekly news letter. For you English folks out there....it is free (google and the newsletter).
From Yahoo... 4 Americans in Iraq crash shot in head By QASSIM ABDUL-ZAHRA, Associated Press Writer 32 minutes ago Four of the five Americans killed when a U.S. security company's helicopter crashed in a dangerous Sunni neighborhood in central Baghdad were shot execution style in the back the head, Iraqi and U.S. officials said Wednesday. A senior Iraqi military official said a machine gunner downed the helicopter, but a U.S. military official in Washington said there were no indications that the aircraft, owned by Blackwater USA, had been shot out of the sky. Two Sunni insurgent groups, separately, claimed responsibility for the crash. In Washington, a U.S. defense official said four of the five killed were shot in the back of the head but did not know whether they were still alive when they were shot. The defense official spoke on condition of anonymity because he was not authorized to speak on the record. The helicopter was shot down after responding to assist a U.S. Embassy ground convoy that came under fire in a Sunni neighborhood in central Baghdad, said a U.S. diplomatic official in Washington. A second helicopter also was struck, but there were no casualties among its crew, said the diplomatic official, who spoke anonymously because he was not authorized to make statements. The doomed helicopter swooped into electrical wires before the crash. U.S. officials said it was not clear if gunfire brought the aircraft down or caused its pilot to veer into the wires during evasive manuevers. The Iraqi official, who also declined to be identified because details had not been made public, said the four were shot in the back of the head while they were on the ground. The crash occurred in an old neighborhood of narrow streets on the east bank of the Tigris River, north of the central city. In separate fighting Wednesday, U.S. and Iraqi troops battled gunmen firing heavy weapons from concrete high-rises in another Sunni insurgent stronghold, on the west bank of the Tigris north of the heavily fortified Green Zone. Iraq's defense minister said as many as 30 militants were killed and 27 captured. Apache attack helicopters buzzed past the tall buildings and radio towers along Haifa Street, while several Humvees drove on the tree-lined street below. Gunfire rang in the background as shells fell, according to AP Television News footage. The U.S. military said the targeted raids were intended to clear the area of militants, dubbing the operation dubbed Tomahawk Strike 11. The clashes were the second major fighting to break out in the area in less than a month. In the aftermath of Tuesday's Blackwater helicopter crash, U.S. forces were planning to blow up the wreckage to prevent people from scavenging equipment, the Iraqi official said. Blackwater USA confirmed that five Americans employed by the North Carolina-based company as security professionals were killed, but provided no identities or other details. On Wednesday, U.S. Ambassador Zalmay Khalilzad offered condolences for the five Americans killed. "We lost five fine men," Khalilzad told reporters during a round-table discussion at the embassy in the heavily fortified Green Zone in Baghdad. He said he had traveled with the men who were killed and had gone to the morgue to view the bodies, but offered no further details beyond saying that it was difficult to determine what happened because of "the fog of war." Another American official in Baghdad, who spoke on condition of anonymity, said three Blackwater helicopters were involved. One had landed for an unknown reason and one of the Blackwater employees was shot at that point, he said. That helicopter apparently was able to take off but a second one then crashed in the same area, he added without explaining the involvement of the third helicopter. The Qatar-based Al-Jazeera television said the 1920 Revolution Brigades insurgent group claimed responsibility for shooting down the helicopter and showed a video taken by a cell phone of a mass of still-smoldering twisted metal that it was said was the wreckage of the chopper. Another Sunni insurgent group, the Ansar al-Sunnah Army, also claimed responsibility and posted identity cards of men who were on the helicopter on a Web site, including at least two that bore the name of Arthur Laguna, who was later identified by his mother as among those killed. Laguna was a 52-year-old pilot for Blackwater who previously served in the Army and the California National Guard, his mother, Lydia Laguna, of Rio Linda, Calif., told the AP. She said she received a call from her other son, also a Blackwater pilot in Baghdad, notifying her of Arthur's death. Witnesses in the Fadhil neighborhood told the AP that they saw the helicopter go down after gunmen on the ground opened fire. Accounts varied, but all were consistent that at least one person operating the aircraft had been shot and badly hurt before the crash. Blackwater USA provides security for State Department officials in Iraq, trains military units from around the world, and works for corporate clients. "These untimely deaths are a reminder of the extraordinary circumstances under which our professionals voluntarily serve to bring freedom and democracy to the Iraqi people," the Blackwater statement said. Katy Helvenston, mother of Scott Helvenston, a Blackwater employee who died in March 2004 when a frenzied mob of insurgents ambushed a supply convoy they were escorting through Fallujah, said Tuesday's crash "just breaks my heart." "I'm so sick of these kids dying," she said. Before Tuesday's crash, at least 22 employees of Blackwater Security Consulting or Blackwater USA had died in Iraq as a result of war related violence, according to the Web site iCasualties.org, which tracks foreign troop fatalities in Iraq. The crash of the small surveillance helicopter, believed to be a version of the Hughes Defender that was developed during the Vietnam War, was the second associated with the U.S. war effort in Iraq in four days. A U.S. Army Black Hawk helicopter went down Saturday northeast of Baghdad, killing all 12 service members on board. The American military in Baghdad has refused to confirm a report by a Pentagon official that debris at the crash site indicated the helicopter was shot out of the air by a surface-to-air missile. |
SAS
Yes - but what the hell has this got to do with the war on terrorism. I seem to remember that a congressional committee found that there was no connection between Al Queda and Iraq. Whatever the situation now it certainly wasn't the situation at the start of this debacle. This is a poor quality president presiding over a poorly managed and ill conceived foreign policy disaster that has, for the time being at least, diminished the standing of my friends in the US in the eyes of the rest of the world and compromised the sense of sadness we feel when chopper guys buy the farm in the course of earning their daily bread.
JimEli For 'backbone' read $$$$$$$$ (it's easy when it's not your money, our lot do it every day) G :( |
Perhaps if one would read past the headlines you would see the report showed no direct connection between Saddam/Iraq and Al Qaeda/911. It did confirm contacts between Al Qaeda and Iraqi Intelligence officers. One might also recall Saddam provided financial assistance to family members of Palestinian suicide bombers after their loved one took a one way ride on the TNT Express.
Perhaps the difference between our two countries is we prefer not fighting wars on our own ground and try to fight them in someone else's ground. That is both good and bad if you consider that makes such things a much more distant and less threatening situation for Joe Six Pack here in the USA. I endorse the concept of reading about Suicide Bombers doing themselves in somewhere besides Main Street, US of A. Perhaps the Channel is not wide enough....as the UK seems to have had the bad luck to experience the effectiveness of the Suicide bomber and we on the far side of the Atlantic have escaped that thus far. Who knows how long that will be is the question. |
SAS
At risk of getting away from the thread let me say that I tremble every time I hear Americans talking about terrorist bombers. For 30 years we had to put up with the IRA bombers killing our innocents with bombs that were paid for with funds raised, quite openly, in America. Terrorism was something that happened somewhere else until 9/11 and then, and only then did we see those funds begin to wane and the IRA begin to talk turkey.
It was just 5 years ago that I got on my bicycle (literally) and cycled down to Portsmouth, got on a ferry to Le Havre and then cycled along the Normandy beaches. I went all the way to the Omaha Beach Cemetery to pay my personal homage to the young Americans who gave their lives so that I could have the freedom to berate some of their sons and grandsons for seeing the light on Terrorism a little late in the day. Churchill once said "you can always trust the Americans to do the right thing - eventually". Well, I'm waiting. G :hmm: |
I suppose visiting a grave yard is might be a way of claiming the high moral ground in a debate. Perhaps, it is the mass graves in Iraq that Saddam's regime filled with his victims that would be the more appropriate venue to use for such a basis to an argument.
I do love the IRA funding argument, and it does have some validity, however to think the IRA got a support from the vast majority of the American population is a real stretch. I will bet you 999 of a 1000 Americans do not even know the difference between Ireland and Northern Ireland much less why the fuss that went on. I will also bet those same folks could not find the place on any map of the world. Remember, we are the folks who do not have passports or speak anything but American English. |
Oh dear!
We're going to get our wrists slapped if we carry on like this SAS but I'm the right side of a hot toddy (going down with the flu) and the debate is more stimulating than swotting for my tech exam (Friday).
1. I do not tar the great American population with the same brush as you say but the folk on the hill would not listen to our pleas for help until 9/12. 2. Saddam Hussein was not a terrorist. He was a brutal dictator and we hate what he stood for and what he did. Only history will judge whether his removal was worth the lives and mayhem a poorly run war has caused. Building a case for war on lies and half truths is not, however, a very good start. I respect your position SAS, maybe we should move on before we get our arses kicked for playing out our feelings in what is meant to be a serious forum. Geoffers :ok: |
SAS
If you're right about the average American's knowledge of affairs in the rest of the world, it would explain why it was so easy for President Bush and his Administration to con so many people into transferring their understandable anger following 9/11 from Osama bin Laden/Al Qaeda to Saddam Hussein. ;) 'Get Bin Laden' was cleverly (credit due) turned into 'Get Saddam Hussein' remarkable quickly. Although to be entirely fair, from what I read and hear direct, a substantial proportion of them now realise they were conned and aren't too happy about it. |
Any correlation between the Iraqi invasion and the war on terrorism is fictional, and existed only in the minds of several top US officials who now admit they were wrong. Even Chaney said that he "never said there was a link between Iraq and Al Queda." The back-peddling by the administration is eye-watering.
Only those who cannot think still believe that the war on Iraq has been good for the war on terrorism. Even the CIA has publiclly said otherwise. And every time I read some right winged warmonger tell me he can sleep better because we killed 100,000 Iraqis, I know we need another election, fast. |
Sasless...:ok:
|
Since the beginning of the year 2007 contractors are subject to the UCMJ (Uniform Code of Military Justice). Before that they were immune to the iraqi law. I wonder if we will see that they find other legal loopholes.
http://usmilitary.about.com/od/justi.../a/civucmj.htm |
RJ....
Perhaps a check on the time line between votes in Congress authorizing the war and the time when things started going south, would show an amazing correlation between those now screaming foul and that point in the time line. You reckon some of the current naysayers contemplated a short sweet deal like Gulf One and now that anything but that has developed....they are now embarrassed they did not challenge the decision they supported at the time of their vote. I would suggest they see the war as a tar baby and are trying their best to blame anyone but themselves for not standing on principle. If they were so opposed to war, this war, or any war....why did they not take that principled stand and vote against it before they voted for it. Just the opposite of John Kerry who voted for it before he voted against it. |
Couple of problems with your point of view, kimo sabe:
1) Those who voted for the war simply agreed with Bush, who flim-flammed the US into believing things which were since proved wrong. Don't blame those of us who were tricked, blame the trickster. Unless you think Bush needed those votes, in which case, why did he say the other day he didn't care what Congress said, he was building up troop levels (against the advice of everyone in sight.) 2) If you think everybody is against the war because it is going badly, you are right. You LIKE how Bush has run it? Why is a badly run war something to hold onto? 3) Regardless of what you thought then, if you still think it was a good idea to attack Iraq, you ought to get out more and find out what has been found out since. No WMD, No link to Al Queda, No yellowcake, No aluminum tubes, No mobile biological trucks. Just lies. OK let me say helicopter. There I said it. |
SAS, GIC, RJ:
I believe that this topic could be better debated at the Steak&Ale. If they have enough alcohol, we could get into religion. Can anyone check out the occupancy rate of the drunk tank? Just planning ahead. Chas A |
Sir,
It does not take Alcohol to incur a bout of religion....flying with the G-Man will do it for you as well! Our dear friend and colleague Nick Lappos is a dedicated Tee Totaller.....to the extent he will hide and swear his airline flight broke down rather than make an appearance at a bar (or else is merely afraid to drive in the dark).;) To think I had a bottle of Middleton's and a back up bottle of Cardhu for him to enjoy....had to pour it down the drain instead.:ugh: |
"Perhaps the difference between our two countries is we prefer not fighting wars on our own ground and try to fight them in someone else's ground. That is both good and bad if you consider that makes such things a much more distant and less threatening situation for Joe Six Pack here in the USA"
I've heard that argument a couple of times before as justification for invading Iraq and every time I hear it, it strikes me as supremely cynical. I bet you wouldn't think that was such a great concept if you were an Iraqi civilian. |
"Foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of simple mindedness"
Put another way, one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter. All countries throughout the history of man have funded the introduction of certain leaders only later to fund their downfall. The US helped put Saddam in power and funded him greatly when he was waring with Iran. The US funded the Taliban and its predecessors when they were waring with Russia where both sides undertook tactics very similar to "terorists" today. The US funded "freedom fighters" in Central America during the 80's who undertook tactics very similar to "terrorists" today. As a President of the US once said, "He may be an SOB, but he is our SOB." The fact is that all countries, clans, religous groups and other organized bodies since the beginning of time have funded these types of activities and will do so as long as it serves their current strategic, tactical or political position at the time. All of us will simply be labled a terrorist if you are on "their" side and a freedom fighter if you are on "our" side. As a final observation, I am quite sure that the British could make an argument that the Continental Militias were in essence terrorists and undertook terrorist activities because many units did not think standing in a field facing british artillery and firepower was such a great tactic. Naturally, the founding fathers would argue otherwise.......I think it is pretty difficult for any objective person not to accept these are simply the facts of human behaivor. I suspect it simply depends upon which shoe you are standing in.......in either event, war is usually profitable for someone. |
Hey! Who done it? Fess up. How come two posts , each with a picture, were censored? I didn't say anything political, religious, or sexual. A picture maybe worth a 1000 words but the second picture was only of a pussycat playing with a shoelace. |
I did.
No, you didn't say anything political but, as you say, a picture is worth a 1000 words. We're pushing our luck having a political discussion of any sort in this forum. If it's pushed too far: either those who support PPRuNe's 'no politics in the aviation forums' rule will object or an Admin will move the thread to Jetblast (even if the Mods here don't) or both. |
Heliport,
I think that it is very unfair of you to resort to logic, reasoning and compassion. However, you da boss. :ok: Dave |
SAS,
" had to pour it down the drain instead." I am assuming you re-cycled it before pouring it down the porcelin drain. In the spirit of Globalism, perhaps the US can offer employment to out of work VC and bored American pilots. Think: Cobra's covering the guys in black pajamas sweeping through Fallujah. NVA Aerial Observers in the Loaches. Then, on to Afghanistan, to meet with the people who destroyed the Bhuddist Statues. Stopper back in the Laphroig. Must work tomorrow. Heliport: Hope you realize this is fantasy, not politics. The definitions blur. Chas A |
SirV.....of course I believe in living "Green"....no way would I casually poison the ground water with Alcohol. I certainly did filter the polluting substances from the Whisky as all environmentally aware persons would do.
|
"Exactly how legal is it for paid mercenaries to be flying armed helicopters or let off on rooftops to kill people? Where is the chain of command, and what is international law in that respect?"
My Nick, how times flys. Back in the days while you were in OD aircraft and some of your friends were in the White/Blue Hueys? Remember them ,and did you ask them? Anyway not many of us have not been touched by Iraq and its mess. The pilot and friend of mine who was killed also had a brother flying a ship in the same sortie, Hes alive you can ask him. My Opinion on the "Mercenary" title is that the American Military is so handcuffed by the politicians that they need someone who can get in and do certain things outside their rules. I am certainly not envious of the military folks over there who have to daily get their ass kicked and cannot kick back. My rules say that if I receive one round from a House or Hotel, Mosque, the whole XXXXing block disappears. I guess thats why im not in charge. CW4 Art Laguna was his name, and Im not gonna forget him..... |
BSousa, I think you blame the wrong folks. Shakespeare said it best:
"But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and arms and heads, chopped off in battle, shall join together at the latter day and cry all 'We died at such a place;' some swearing, some crying for a surgeon, some upon their wives left poor behind them, some upon the debts they owe, some upon their children rawly left. I am afeard there are few die well that die in a battle; for how can they charitably dispose of any thing, when blood is their argument? Now, if these men do not die well, it will be a black matter for the king that led them to it;" Henry V, Act IV The King has a heavy reckoning, Bert. He took us there, and he blew it. |
| All times are GMT. The time now is 06:18. |
Copyright © 2024 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.