Oz Blackhawk Reported Crashed Into Sea Near Fiji
 

Local news in Brisbane is carrying reports of a Australian Blackhawk having ditched into the sea off Fiji. No other detail was given. Except a "stay tuned" for more news. I hope crew and pax are OK.

SS

News Update
 

AN Australian Army Black Hawk helicopter has been lost at sea near Fiji, The Australian Defence Force (ADF) said tonight.

Defence offered few details, saying only that the helicopter had been operating from aboard the landing ship HMAS Kanimbla.

Kanimbla and two other Australian warships were despatched earlier this month to stand by off Fiji to rescue Australian nationals in event of a coup by the Fijian military.

Defence Air Chief Marshal Angus Houston will hold a media conference later this evening.

http://www.news.com.au/story/0,23599...5-1702,00.html

Australian soldier killed in Black Hawk crash
By 7News An Australian Black Hawk Helicopter has crashed off the coast of Fiji, killing at least one soldier on board and leaving others missing.

The aircraft was operating from the HMAS Kanimbla which is off Fiji to rescue Australian nationals in the event of a military coup in the country.

The Australian Defence Department confirmed a Black Hawk has been lost at sea off the coast of Fiji.

Australian Defence Chief Angus Houston will address the media in Canberra later tonight.

The Black Hawk is the main transport helicopter for the Australian Army.

http://au.news.yahoo.com/061129/23/11lza.html


Our thoughts are with them!!:sad:

From: http://www.abc.net.au/news/newsitems...1/s1800631.htm
It seems that it was a SAS operation - from what was said on the 7.30 Report tonight.
This is very sad. Condolences to the family of the member who died. It must also be terrible for the family of the missing member.

As per usual, the media are making out that the Black Hawk has a "dark history" of crashes. What crap. Do any of them do any research into these things, the hours they have flown, not just here, but the entire world wide fleet, the type of work they do, why they do what they do? NO........
They will get some "expert" who lurks around a dark place to come out and slag off the aircraft, the military, the manufacturer, the engineers who work on them, the people who bought them, anything to drum up a dramatic story, anything but the whole unbiased truth.
And for the record I'm not ex military, (was in the RAN for a few years a long time ago, back when a "stoker", the back-bone of the fleet, thought a "birdie" (and that term for me includes Pilots) was the lowest form of human life), and I am not a huge fan of mil pilots even though I think they are very, very good at what they do (catch me/kill me type of stuff).
I just think they don't get any credit for what they do for us and when things like this happen everybody jumps on the slagging band wagon.
IMHO the family of anyone killed in the military should be looked after for life in the same manner as the blood sucking pollies get after doing nothing more dangerous than a few years of polishing furniture with their bums.
Rant over.

Good news from a sad event
 

Today, as past President of the HAA and an ex-grunt pilot (a long time ago), I have been one of many asked to go on TV and radio to give their point of view.

The sad news is that the ADF has once again lost young people who are out there doing their job in a high risk activity, preparing to save others from the bad guys that are rampaging around the globe.

The good news is that many of those who provided comments have stated that the Blackhawk is widely used, does a good job and in the past decade or so has not had any maintenance problems.

I was able to state (and it was accepted) that on hours flown in many dangerous parts of the world, the safety record is very good in the ADF.

Many people miss this important point, in fact the Australian Army's accident rate per 100,000 hours (and they fly a lot) is probably around just under 2/100,000 hours flown, bettered only by the US Army.

Thankfully all the media frenzy has turned to the escape of the soldiers and the value of HUET. The usual accusations and blame seeking faded away (now subject to investigation) and the media looked at the excellent training the crews had to achieve such a low loss rate.

Hopefully this positive theme will continue, Dave Carlton, 2UE Sydney after being convinced by me that the Blackhawk was OK, turner his attention to the importance of HUET.

A lesson for us all.

Our thoughts are with the families who have lost.

Maybe every dark cloud does have a sliver lining?

Robsrich, perhaps you could answer a question in my mind.
Do army crews get recurrent training in At sea ship board manouvers?

It woulld seem to be outside their scope though I suppose the navy has no suitable passenger type.

There's often a requirement for Army helicopter crews to transfer people and equipment to/from Navy vessels, so yes, day and night initial and recurrent training are part of that, or were when I was involved - still would be now, I'm sure.

Yes still is required

Name of killed Black Hawk pilot released
By 7News
The pilot killed in the Black Hawk helicopter crash off Fiji yesterday afternoon was 35-year-old Captain Mark Bingley.
Captain Bingley was killed when the helicopter he was in crashed into the HMAS Kanimbla while performing a training exercise.

One of the crew is still missing at sea
Captain Bingley was posted to Townsville to the 171 Aviation Squadron as a Qualified Flying Instructor on Black Hawk helicopters.

Defence Minister, Brendan Nelson, said Captain Bingley served the Australian Army with distinction.

"All Australians should feel very proud of his courage and commitment," he said.

"Our sympathies go to all of Captain Bingley's family, in particular his wife and son."

Defence force chief, Air Marshal Angus Houston, also extended his condolences to the family and friends of Captain Bingley.

"He was an extremely competent and highly regarded member of the Army's aviation community," he said.

"Captain Bingley will be remembered as a dedicated pilot who had infectious energy and a great sense of humour."

Captain Bingley was born in Tasmania and enlisted in the Australian Army in 1990.

On completion of recruit training, he served for several years as a rifleman in The First Battalion, The Royal Australian Regiment and was promoted to the rank of corporal in 1997.

He was subsequently accepted for training as a helicopter pilot.

On completion of his training, he was commissioned as a Second Lieutenant in the Army Aviation Corps in 1998.

During his service he flew helicopters for the 5 Aviation Regiment in Australia and overseas and undertook training in the US.

He was awarded the United Nations Medal for service in Cambodia and East Timor, the International Forces East Timor Medal, the Australian Active Service Medal, the Defence Long Service Medal and the Australian Defence Medal.

He is survived by his wife and son.

Condolences to the family and friends
LowNr

HUET and CRM?
 

I think this is very sad news indeed. However it may possibly highlight the relative lack of continuation training given to these guys these days, despite the now common call to deploy these Ozzie crews on operations, a thing quite rare 10 to 20 years ago. The nine news story points to the last major Blackhawk tragedy which in my memory had as a contributing factor a similar lack of training and recency. There certainly is nothing wrong with the aircraft.
Landing on boats, rigs etc is a common task for offshore pilots. The job is done on a daily basis by day and night. There are mishaps but relatively few, and when there are, most people successfully evacuate, eg the G-JSAR incident last week.
Sadly many of the lessons of the civil industry are not passed on to those in the military, such as HUET. (Although this training was available for military crews in the eighties.) Many ex military pilots with this experience also tend not to be involved with the now common 'civil military ab initio' and advanced training. Perhaps this should be encouraged. Maybe someone could enlighten this author whether CRM training and recurrency is a part of ab initio and Squadron training these days.
HUET possibly should be passed on to troops operating to ships as well. All passengers travelling offshore are required to undergo this training.
Too much speculation I think.... Hopefully more will come to light through the video of what went wrong. Did an engine fail prior to commital point. Was there a commital point? etc.
My sincere sympathy to the family and friends.

Your're way off the mark!
 

B412,

Your concerns regarding lack of currency are well off the mark. All aircrew operating within a maritime environment are required to be HUET compliant. But it is not just the crew, those pers from the RDF (or any pers) that may be required to travel by helo over water are also required to be current. Those in the SASR are certainly up to date regarding HUET.

So let's not speculate about the recency of training etc. As those that have undergone HUET know, it is very different to any other sort of training or water based activity.

S64

so long bingas
 

I've been waiting for the names, I had a bad feeling ever since I saw the news

(tas) 'weejin, grunter, pioneer, sniper, pilot, pisshead

not necessarily in that order
an absolute gem of a bloke who had the midas touch
he was a jet - & could turn his hand to anything

he knew his stuff backwards & his **** was always in one sock
a true gent & an incredible loss

I'll miss ya mate

"hit 'em with some khmer sambou"

Aus military planners need to be strung up!!!
 

Very sad indeed!
....but where were the emergency pop out floats that Sikorsky equip the maritime version of the S70 with????
F@#king nowwhere to be seen......
More lives lost due to Military planning incompetence..... Apparently we've run short on the appropriate variant for maritime operations...
Sure send the Blackhawks via ship to mobilise to Fiji..... But dont routinely operate them without appropriate maritime equipment from a ship.... Morons...
Does the term "Seahawk" ring a bell..... Certainly seems to with most other navy's throughout the world!!!!
F@#k we're an embarasment!
Nowhere else do you see this **** accepted....
These guys families have got a pretty good liable case if you ask me......
Rant over!!!
SD

You're kidding?
 

Sundance. Please don't be so quick to assume everyone is an 'embarrassment' when you refer to 'we'. It's obvious you're functioning on something out of Jane's so just keep it to yourself.
We'll miss ya Bingers!

HUET

Decode please.

The best I can do is H Underwater Escape Training.
What is the H? Maybe Helicopter.

So long Bingas
 

B412,

Judging by several of your comments that I have quoted above, you clearly have not ever served in an Australian military aviation unit. This leads me to think that perhaps you are not nearly qualified or enlightened enough to be drawing some of the conclusions that you have. To set the record straight:

HUET

All army aircrew have to be qualified and requalified in HUET every two years. To put it simply, if your HUET currency lapses, you're grounded until you requalify. As Super64 mentioned, all "frequent flyer" troops (i.e. all SO and most 3 Bde units) do the same training every two years as the aircrew.

CRM

Once again, if you don't do your CRM refresher every two years, no flying!

Switching my focus now to Sundance76:

Honestly mate, the whole idea of flying in a UTILITY helicopter squadron is that your tasking and role changes from one day to the next. Given that the Blackhawk is operated by the ADF primarily as a battlefield UTILITY transport helicopter, I suppose you can understand why they don't have floats.


Finally, to echo the sentiments of other pruners on this thread, Bingas was a first class aviator and top bloke. Rest in peace mate.

The Baffler

Correct me if I'm wrong guys but the aussie seahawks fitout for their normal role is a bit inflexible for say troop carrying or emergency evacuation.

No joke!
 

mickinst

Quote:

---

Sundance. Please don't be so quick to assume everyone is an 'embarrassment' when you refer to 'we'. It's obvious you're functioning on something out of Jane's so just keep it to yourself.

---

Not following you mate! 'Jane' what does this mean???????
My comments are slatted squarely at the F-wits who thought it was a good idea to assign a helicopter for ship based operations without the basic equipment that will buy our soldiers enough time to get out if it ditches....... "Emergency Pop Out Floats" When I refer to the royal "we", I’m referring to the reputation of Australian's in general..... No matter what the cause of the event, basic oversights such as not having floats for maritime operations make us all look stupid on the world stage...... Our ADF leaders can do better for the health and wellbeing of our soldiers during non wartime operations like this.... I don’t see why they can't!!!!

If floats aren’t required for the movement of ADF personnel to and from a ship over water, then why does the SeaHawk and every other civilian helicopter undertaking over water personnel transport need them???? It begs the question doesn’t it?

baffler15
You miss the point....
Not having a go at the Blackhawk's functionality.... or the fact that it is primarily used by the ADF as a battlefield UTILITY transport helicopter.....
But you've reinforced my point - it’s a battlefield UTILITY transport helicopter - not a MARITIME transport helicopter. If you're going to use them for this work, then equip them or use the Seahawk.
You se, I'm having a go at the twits who thought it was a good idea to utilise them for ship based "predominately over water" operations when they're not equipped with the basic safety gear that buys our soldiers time to exit the airframe before it sinks to depths beyond reach..... I don’t know the weight of these things, but I think it’s safe to guess they sink extraordinarily fast....
Our military boys and girls deserve better!

I've seen the brand new Tiger HUET trainer in operation in Darwin. The rig is a full tandem sized cockpit mockup, without instruments or actual seats, everything is stainless steel and she's suspended above a crystal clear chlorinated pool at a lovely temperature. The pilots get in, the rig is lowered at a nice slow pace into the pool and lazily flops over on it's side, the guys unstrap and swim out of the cockpits.

That's the preparation for a stack in the water with blades exploding everywhere and turbulence and falling off the side of a boat fifty feet into the sea upside down.

Then again, a more realistic HUET trainer would be a rather hard thing to build if it was to replicate a ditching with some realism.

I guess it's better than nothing.

The "realistic" trainer that you suggest wouldn't be that hard to build at all - anyone can build something that crashes! I guess the problem lies in busting up highly trained (i.e. expensive) aircrew.....

By the way, if you haven't actually tried HUET then you probably can't comment on how benign or otherwise the dunk training seems to be. Let me assure you, clear water or not, it is BLOODY TERRIFYING!!

The Baffler

My thoughts and sympathy go out to Bingas' family, and the family of the trooper still missing. This is a tragic accident, and a reminder that we accept risk every time we fly.
I also want to acknowledge the excellence of the crews and maintainers in 171 Sqn and the rest of Army Aviation. The whole corps, and the Army will mourn this tragic loss.
Sundance 76, if the Blackhawk fleet spent even half of its time doing maritime ops, they might be fitted with floats. As it is, they spend about 5% of their time over water. Your aircraft would not have floats either if it wasn't employed solely offshore.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/newsitems...2/s1802426.htm

click on the pic when it comes up, then all say
'There but for the grace of god go I.'

amen

air recirculation????? easy enough to happen, very easy!
especially in these lousy weather paterns of late.
almost picked up a burst of it today, shooting the tube we call it.

Willy willy's everywhere,coming into land, into wind one minute, proper downwind the next

Regarding floats for offshore operations, the US Navy has NO floats on the H-60 family - zip, nada. The safety of the crew is assured by the escape hatches and personal protection, the aircraft is what it is - expendable. Find the floats:


http://fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ac/sh-60-406lg2.jpg

Seahawk - no floats?
 

Hey Nick,

When did the USN remove the floats? The RAN 70B2 still has them with the standoffs fitted to provide room between the forward excape hatches and the floats. I remember there was a problem initially with the floats inflating and covering the escape hatch because of the way the aircraft sat in the water (assuming it was a controlled ditching).

To other things....I too was getting pretty p*****d off with the media reporting and trying to focus on the Black Hawk. All the accidents in the ADF have had human factors contributing - not one has been an aircraft malfunction. Indeed, it is a true tribute to the aircraft and its designers that so many have survived these accidents and I wish the media would focus on that for once.

I've many hours in the Seahawk and it is the helicopter to measure all others by. Great control response, tons of power, lots of redundancy and built like the proverbial brick ****ehouse. I love it and I have felt so secure in it in the manu hours and crap conditions I have flown it in....as has many other naval aviatiors.

The Black Hawk is no different except the undercarraige has a very different design. Was this a factor? Well, that's why we have accident investigations and best left to the guys and gals to figure out what happened and how it happened. All I will say is that the environment is pretty unforgiving and often tests the ability of pilots. I trust the 'fly by wire' system of the NH90 will be able to keep up with the turbulence, ship motion and the variability of pilot inputs to keep up with it all....

HUET...it's a life saver and the ADF has invested huge amounts of money in training its people in HUET and continues to do so.

In the end, we put the serviceman in harms way to do a job...that's why we pay them and they accept the challenge. It can be very satisfying but every so often, something goes wrong after all, we are talking about machines and humans. Unlike a ship or a tank, when something goes wrong, we just can't stop...we want our defence forces to be risk aware NOT risk averse which is where the media and families would like to take it I'm sure. Sure, if there is blatant negligence, then action should be taken but everytime something happens in the ADF, the lawyers and the media swarm like vultures. If we're not careful, we are going to raise a bunch of 'leaders' who will be afraid to make brave decisions because of fear of persecution or litigation. There needs to be a balance.

So,in finishing my rant....I have no doubt in my mind that the guys and gals flying our defence helicopters whether at sea or over land are doing a sterling job usually in trying conditions and circumstances. Sometime things go wrong but machines break and to err is human. We just need to learn from each event to see if we can minimise the chances of it happening again. Families, your loved ones joined in the full knowledge that this is a risky business. Be happy in the knowledge that they are doing something gives thems satisfaction and that 'sense of adventure' so lacking in today's controlled life. We see many kids these days wanting no more than to be part of the Latte' set so those who are prepared to get out and be challenged should be praised.

Bingey's wife is sterling and has remembered her husband in the way I think he would want to be remembered. To all, condolences for the loss of loved ones but be comforted in the knowledge that they were serving their country and its citizens with honour (old fashion values ... hmmm, what a unique idea).

Again, sorry all, rant over!!!

Og,

Well said...

RR

Defence lobby rejects helicopter accident inquiry call
 

Recent media report:


A military analyst says an independent inquiry into Australian Defence Force (ADF) helicopter accidents would achieve very little.

North Queensland independent MP Bob Katter says 31 military personnel have died in non-combat accidents in the past decade, compared with five Australian deaths in combat.

Mr Katter has called on Prime Minister John Howard to set up an independent inquiry to investigate.

But Australia Defence Association (ADA) spokesman Neil James says the two are very different areas of operation and cannot be compared.

"The reason for the discrepancy between the number of people killed in accidents and the number of people killed in combat is quite simple," he said.

"We fly helicopters all the time yet we're only in combat occasionally over the last 30 years.

"So given that each accident was thoroughly investigated and there's no pattern between them, I can't see what an independent inquiry into all of them would actually achieve."

Meanwhile, the Defence Department says it has video footage of the fatal Black Hawk helicopter accident.

The helicopter plunged into the sea off Fiji on Wednesday afternoon while trying to land on HMAS Kanimbla.

A closed circuit television above the flight deck on the Navy ship captured images of the crash, as well as all arrivals and departures.

That video will be examined by the air accident investigation team, before the Defence Department considers releasing it to the public.

The body of the pilot, Captain Mark Bingley, has been returned to his home town of Townsville overnight, while the search is continuing for missing soldier, Trooper Joshua Porter.

End:

I support the view of the ADF, the overall accident rate of of the Army per 100,000 hours flown is as good as the best, and although we can try extra hard and the ADF investigation may recommned changes (if any), the effort in a politically driven high level enquiry at the top; and on top of the current investigation system would tie up ADF resources which could be better used at the coal face enhance operational supervision, or whatever is needed when the facts are known,

Wot I am saying is: pollies go home and stop scoring points!

Rob,

Well said, totally agree.

Sundance and V2,

Dear oh dear, what can I say? Perhaps you guys should ask some questions instead of making rather outlandish statements. Remember everything is a compromise, in terms of training, risk, cost and capability. Increasing training in one field invariably requires a reduction in another field. It appears this accident has validated the HUET training, not invalidated it – the training done is realistic enough, you don’t need to ‘crash’ the HUET.

Ogsplash,
I believe the H60 floats were never approved, and were therefore not ever installed on fleet aircraft. Even the vestigal mounts were removed, I think.

Regarding the unfortunate loss of good people while they practice for combat, I believe the public understands and agrees, but the press must sell the deoderant and cars that pay for the newsprint, so controversy must be stirred up. Just hold the line, it is a noble thing to serve in the military, and when someone dies in a mishap while doing exercises, it is still a sacrifice.

BTW, I had lunch once with the CO of Ft. Rucker, Don Parker, right after he had been interviewed by "60 Minutes". He was concerned that the TV show would not carry his quote that I remember to this day, "My soldiers are safer strapped in the back of a Black Hawk than they are in their cars on the weekend." They lost many times more young, aggressive, healthy people in off duty accidents than they did in night helicopter exercises, because young people are risk takers and the military takes extra effort to train that out of them.

The TV show did not carry that quote, naturally.

Bingas!

Not enough beers have been shared, especially at that chook drivers place. Just found out. Sorry dude for you and Mel and Bub.

Take it easy in the skies now.

B.C. and K.D.

Sundance back in yur box!

Katter, a pollie? i don't think so.

not confusing the very noble charasmatic father (from whom the current one inherited the fed seat of Kennedy) with the pretending useless son are you Rob? Is Townsville even in the seat of Kennedy?

His dad, bless him, was I think minister for the army at one time, helped the family of a close mate of mine considerably when certain person was in a 'spot' of bother in vietnam.

His dad's brother, Bertie was very funny, a laughing very likeable rouge who liked a drink, did a bit of copper gouging, SP bookie that sort of thing.

His greatest claim to fame was driving off from the Kajabbi races one year with his partner in crime - bookie mate Bob Backash - and to the amusement of the late night bar revellers drove for some considerable time until stopping at a signpost to look for directions. The sign? it said - 2 Furlongs!

young Bob , none of that!

Me thinks he has woken up that Barnaby Joyce may knock him off as OZ's most dim pollie and has hence engaged his mouth.

There have been no adverse comments from pollies of substance that I have seen, other than some mention of condolence and praise from PM

There's always one isn't there!
 

Griffin,

Take a breath mate. I simply described the HUET dunker I have seen for the tiger and suggested that it's is absolutely in no way anything like a real landing on water incident. Nothing critical about the ADF or army pilots or the procurement contractor who wrote the tender or the lady who licked the envelope to put it into the mail to the winning supplier so settle down.

If that is an "outlandish statement" in your world then I suggest that you get out of the house more and meet some new friends.

Nick, the SH-60s I flew at HSL40 in the late 80s had them. Then the standoffs came and something comes to mind about removing them in the end to put something 'useful' on like guns, missiles and the like.....The RAN S70B2s have definately retained them although in this day and age, some conformal units along the fuselage would be nice to eliminate the possible hinderance of the guys in the front. While I'm on a shopping spree, how about some externally mounted ejectable life rafts?

The floats were never intended to keep the aircraft afloat but were to give the crew more time to get out. HEEDS I think has saved many aircrew in the USN and the RAN guys train in the HUET with the HEEDS...amazing to see how people relax when they know they have a few sucks of air there if they need it. I don't know if the Army guys train with the HEEDS or carry them (mad if they didn't).

Unfortunately some army aircrew do carry HEEDS, but others don't because of military red tape.......... Thankfully, the guys in the Fiji crash did have it.

Baffler,

Did I read correct ? Some do and some don't carry HEEDS, Military Red tape etc.

You are joking aren't you. Is is either a requirement or not, surely.

If it is a requirement then all crew should carry it and be trained in it's use. If not, no carry. The reason is because the training in the use of HEEDS is vital, it can be far worse to attempt to use it if you haven't trained with it, (as silly as that seems).

Before anyone starts jumping up and down , I do have many years of experience with HUET, HEEDS, and all of the training , red tape, politics etc in Australia.

Sorry to get off topic, rant over,

Somebody said it before, there but for the grace of God.................

Never a more true statement. Sincere condolences to the family and his Squadron mates, I am sure he will be missed.

Og and Nick,

The USN Seahawks had plumbing and floats installed in B and F model seahawks until the mid 90's. From the time I started they were plumbed for helium but, because there were no facilities on ships to carry helium, they were serviced with Nitrogen. End result? Inflation times varied from 30-70 seconds making them, essentially, useless (by the time they inflated, aircraft on descent rapidly in the ocean). There was a move in the early 90's to replumb the float system for Nitrogen (actually happened in some squadrons) but ultimately the decomissioned the whole lot because they felt it was a heavy burden to keep the systems serviceable in light of the very few aircraft saved by the system.

Thats the way I remember it (first hand).

Not much consolation to our Army brethren, but my two cents worth.

All the best gentlemen.

HP

Og...gidday!

Sorry mate, but I don't joke about such things. We've got the gear sitting in boxes in ALSE, but are lacking the paperwork to introduce them. Strange, but true. Or not so strange, if you know how the military sometimes works.........:ugh:

funeral arrangements
 

any info available on when the service will be held
(need to arrange flights from vic)

cheers

"any info available on when the service will be held
(need to arrange flights from vic)"



http://www.abc.net.au/news/australia...2/s1805214.htm


friday townsville, as per above news clip.

I really think some of you people should go and have a look at the military aircrew forum, in particular the Nimrod crash forum, to see how this sort of event should be handled.

Bingas farewell, so sad

Buck you get well soon!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!