Training Bond
 

Anyone out there been bonded for the training they have received?

I am looking at going for a job where the company is stating that there is a 3 year bond for between £11000 and £14000 for the type conversion/line training etc:eek:
Also, no reduction over the period. They would still want the full amount after 2 years and 364 days:ouch:

Is this legal:confused:
Would I be expected to sign a separate agreement over and above the 'standard' contract?

All sounds a bit scary.

Anyone been stung on this or managed to avoid it if they have left a job early?

Its not ilegal but it doesn't sound fair.

What are they rating you on for £14,000?

A fair bonding would run over a period of years decreasing by a fractional amount every month (2 years decreasing by 1/24 each month or 3 years decreasing by 1/36 each month etc)

It's an EC135T2 in the police role.

Totally agree with you on the reduction over time. But, they are definately requesting the full amount if you leave at any point within 3 years.

And is it a fair price for the conversion, or are they ripping you off on that as well?

I'd be wary of that one - maybe get a bank loan with better terms?

Phil

In the outfit where I work we have to sign a 5 years bond for a 5 hr simulator currency. The simulator training is only valid for 1 year. You go again and sign another 5 years. The previous bonding is considered null and void . Most pilots who leave will eventually pay something back to the sim time (on a sliding scale)!:

Hi Snoogle

I think a few questions you need to ask your self are.

Will this further your career or do you already have a position where you can gain the type of experience you would in this role?

Is the money a lot better than your present position?

Is it close to where you live in comparision to your present job?

Are you going to stick it out for 3 years?

Still sounds unfair to me but if you did stay for 3 years it wouldn't realy matter.

Good luck.

I seem to remember Bristows bonding some new blokes for a type rating and they left early, Bristows tried to get there money back but it ended up in court. The short of it all, if my memory is correct (know doubt someone in pprune will correct me if I'm wrong) is that you cannot be bonded for a type conversion if the company need you to fly there a/c, they can only bond you if they have paid for your initial license. Worth looking into ITI. Any Bristow or ex Bristow blokes (or birds) care to comment.

Bonding is legal. What is a little doubtful is the legality of a non-reducing bond. There is another thread about this (I forget which one) but I'd take a legal opinion myself. On the other hand, if it's the job you want and you aren't planning on leaving for pastures greener.....?

I know of someone who was bonded by Bristows for 6 years and this was only for type conversion onto the Puma and IR.

In '99 Bond was bonding you for 3 years with a reducing bond.

snoogle I think I know which company you are talking about, I can only imagine they have been burned by people getting a conversion and then leaving .

I guess if one was paid a more handsome salary one would not contemplate of leaving or even think about joining.

Is it a horses for courses question?

From my basic knowledge of general employment law, it would suggest that a new employee signing a new contract will be legally enforceable whatever it says. However, an existing employee, made to sign a bond that isn't in their contract may well have grounds for not having it enforced.

Cheers

Whirls

There may well be those with more legal knowledge than me (quite likely really) but in discussions with others I have been lead to believe/hope that there are limits to what you can be bonded for and how much. New qualifications (ratings etc) are one thing but surely it cannot be right and hopefully not legal to bond someone for a currency check. If it only costs say £5K for a type rating surely it cannot be reasonable to bond you for more than the cost.

Why would the accounts department request you to declare hours of type training before the end of March? Surely training is not tax deductable!!!:eek:
Would such bonds not then be companies taking complete advantage of the competition for places. Those new cojo's, they'll sign anything we put in front of 'em!!!!!!!!!:E :E :E :E
Oooops, said the quiet part loud and the loud part quiet.......:uhoh:

You might want to compare some of the responses to an earlier thread:

Training Bonds

snoogle,

I believe these are called "Square bonds" and are becoming the norm in the FW world. A colleague of mine has recently been 'pooled' for 'flybe' with a very similar bonding system.

As to the legality - I know two folks who bailed out on bonds - one assures me he got away with it scot free - the other one was right royally stuffed.

I guess you signs your bond and takes your chance.

Given the figures you've quoted this must be for more than just an EC type rating - what's the rest of the story!

R1

It should really reduce by one over thirty six pro-rata to be fair. I would get a good brief to look at the contract, if he say's it's complete tosh then sign up...

If this is the company I am thinking of they are also bonding you for your line training. Most of the line training can be carried out during operational flying with a training captain so it costs the company nothing.

I know one person who has challenged it on leaving and not paid anything. The company wanted to sign his bond on leaving and pay then! Hence the introduction of this bond.

FNW

The company I work for gave me a medium twin type and an initial IR. The bond was for three years on a reducing scale. All very fair I think. I am still with them after 9 years so it was a bit academic really.
All the best

The ex-chief pilot for a Middle East helicopter company signed a training bond 6 months after he had been to the AB139 ground school course in Italy and was duly licensed on the aircraft. Rumour has it the bond (2 years non pro-rata) was presented to him with "either sign it or good-bye". Believe it or not this was after he had been with the company for more more than 22 years. Sort of sucks, but then again the company he USED to work for does too. Seek legal advice and take it from there. Good luck.
Munch Munch

just come on to this thread even though i am a fw jet jock. with regards to a reducing bond which i have which is over 5 years. i am with a uk operator but am looking to finish with aviation possibly for good before my time is up. what would my chances of coming to an amicable agreement over repayment terms. ie not pay anything. looking to leave aviation and pursue another career due stress related problems and would rather be poor and healthy than wealthy and dead. but with all things in life would not want to burn my bridges. any one know of ways to take a sabatical for 1-2 years, may even be the answer to my problems.

Hello everyone, and sorry for resurrecting an old thread!

I was wondering what sort of bonds people in the UK are currently serving, and/or what people think is acceptable?

I ask because I have now learned that my bond is somewhat more onerous than other employees in the same company, for the same training :(

I would like to know what people think is acceptable bonding for a type rating (not an IR), mainly with regard to duration?

Many thanks
:)

If its type rating only it should be 3 years and no more, thats the norm for the larger types. Not sure about small to medium like 76 or 155.

Merlin,

I guess it depends what size company your working for and how many employees they are worried about losing out to. However, a few years back I was working for a smallish on-shore operator and was bonded pro-rata for 2 years for types and an IR. Both parties were very happy with this.

I do get the impression that 3 seems nearer the norm on a pro rata basis, but trends can change quickly in this industry.

Rushes

In a previous job I was bonded for £30K for two years. I accepted it at the time, so as far as I was concerned it was legal and stood. I did the two years and forgot all about it.

A bond is only relevent and unreasonable if you want to leave before the bonding period is up and want to use the rating/training as a stepping stone.

Training Bonds
 

Just to put the cat amongst the pigeons.....:E

I understand that the EU court have ruled that training bonds are a 'restrictive practice' and therefore they are illegal.

Would like to hear from someone with a legal background to see if this is true!
Flying Lawyer????

bondu :ok:

Good Employers?
 

I know companies spend money on training and people leave. But if a company is putting a huge bond on you, ask yourself why. If it is because they have been stung in the past, why did those people leave? It strikes me a "good employer" should not suffer much churn, so training costs are not excessive, and huge bonds are not necessary. If on the other hand....well you know what I am saying.
Stuck with a poor employer for 5yrs with a huge financial commitment is not a good place to be, if it is a last resort then take it, but remember there is a shortage of helo pilots and there is a choice. The more we accept poor conditions the worse they will get. It can be difficult to start but it is getting better.

controller,


Piloting helicopters is the same as any other industry, whether it be vets, doctors or plumbers. From time to time they will all suffer a shortage of suitably qualified people just as is the case now with helo pilots. Whether you can see it or not there clearly is a shortage and demand is high for qualified people.

There is no 'worthwhile' industry in the world where demand is high for newbies. As with any of the above professions if some half baked fool thinks just because s/he's got a law degree or a corgi registration or a CPL(H) s/he's going to walk right into a top-line job that's their own dumb lookout. Any employer wants the person who fought hard to get their first rung on the ladder not the arrogant jerk who feels s/he's just going to walk right in.

If there are people out there who go and sign up for a CPL(H) purely on the strength that someone once said there is a shortage of pilots they deserve to be right royally taken for a ride. I would like to hope anyone smart enough to pass the CPL exams is smart enough to research what they're commiting to and how in the long run they plan to get there.

Your comments made me think of all those signs you see across the US advising people not to lick metal ski lifts in winter or put fingers in the toaster. Do we really need to protect people from themselves even here on a chat forum

R1tamer

What if the Employers change their mind???
 

Totally agree with the 'bonding prevents pilots leaving' comments, but what if the company agree to bond you for one thing, then change their minds and use the bond to force you into accepting a posting you never wanted?

Just a thought. The EU ruling does exist, and now has a 'precedent' status - will be ending up in a court sometime soon myself over this, will post the outcome to all!

Safe skies, happy homes!

Training Bond
 

Hi
I was wondering if anyone has ever paid for a training bond, just leaving the company before the expiry date.

speaking from personal, and recent, experience. training bonds are not worth the paper there're written on!!!

if a company wants to bond you they are admitting they are not providing the conditions and pay to make you stay of your own accord. so they force you to stay.

If a company says 'we need you to do a job on a particular aircraft' then the decision is on them to provide you with the appropriate training to conduct the job they require of you. the days of feeling guilty from receiving an aircraft rating are over.

if an accountant received training to operate a new computer system would there be a training bond... i think not.

i'm working for a company who is changing fleet type. it wasn't my decision to change, if they want to get a new type then they need to provide the training!!

some of you newbies need to know your worth!!!

nuff sed!

What about the case where you signed a bond and are happily doing your time on the type. The company then decides to re-fleet and re-bonds you from scratch?
Basically you don't have a choice do you? Well thats whats happening to us.
Would you sign? :confused:

In the current economic climate? YES

We bond for three years on a reducing scale for the first type we put you on. After that any extra types are because the company needs you on that type and we don't bond for them. We started bonding after being used as a free source of type ratings by a couple of unscrupulous pilots. I've never heard a pilot complain about the bonding system we use, then again I've never known one leave during the bond period.

I've heard the so called "square bond" is rearing it's ugly head again, and I doubt the legality of such bonds. I've spoken to an employment expert in the last few minutes about this subject and she tells me that it is very difficult to make any bond stand up in court and a "square bond" almost impossible.

Aviation is one of very few industries to use bonding, and from what I have seen the system is more used to b***er up the futures of people who just walk out. The phone call between chief pilots, "Yes he's a lovely chap, but he left and still owes his bond." will always leave a doubt over the head of anyone who just leaves.

As for the training cost on the 135, about £ 15 000 is pretty accurate, but should be factored at £ 417 per month over the three years. Still having to pay the full amount after 35 months strikes me as mighty unfair.

In my experience the bonding contract in worth nothing. I have had colleges leave and never pay anything back to the company. The company has not even chased them up for it...

Legal or not if you break a bond and bugger off you are a marked man and the industry, being fairly small, will know all about it.

It is people accepting a course of training and leaving before giving a fair return of service that have caused bonds to be introduced in the first place.

The next step after bonding is being asked to pay for your type rating and line training as a condition of employment, also a 'restrictive practice' I would have thought but it happens, so I wouldn't be banking too much on a claim of restrictive practice to get me out of repaying a bond that I had agreed to in the first place and signed a contract to that effect.

Better to go into the office and discuss it, make an offer, offer instalments etc. I worked for a company that aggressively pursued bond breakers but gave some very good terms to a couple of guys who made settlement offers. Another chap with strong compassionate grounds was allowed to walk away for free, owing nearly four years of bond.

Remember, if you break a bond not only are you screwing it up for everyone else but you will probably find it will come back to bite you later in your working life, a career, as such, may not be possible.

Look on the up side, you are also "guaranteed" 3 or 4 yrs work giving you time to build up your type experience.

Just a thought from another industry, but it's not just aviation that does this. I work in embedded systems / electronics, for a company involved in consumer electronics and silicon IP - if none of this makes sense, call it 'high tech' - where qualified people are not easy to find. The standard expectation is that people will be well educated before they get to us, although we do take on fresh-out-of-training folk and build them up, so not entirely like aviation. The company is a mid-size multi-national corporate.

If the company sends us on a course, which they pay for (generally something required for us to do our jobs), you enter into an agreement with the company to reimburse them if you leave within a certain period afterwards. The exact period varies depending on the cost, and reduces over time, and you agree that the company can recover the monies from your final paycheck. This is not unusual in this industry.

Of course, the average course doesn't run much more than a few £k, and the average monthly salary here is at least that, so there's actually some chance of the company being able to collect. It's probably a bit different when the amounts are up in the tens of thousands...

Anon
 

Snoogle, Northwest floater is correct, have same experience. Also will your career stand still over the Bond period? Will you have the opportunity for further courses, I/R, TRI/TRE etc. or will you be expected to remain at your current status and position without progression?

Try and avoid the Bonds and take a bank loan, keeps your modus-operandi entirely flexible....hope thats useful..

Settling early..
 

Have experience of this pm me...

Most labor laws state that training that make profit for a company is unbondable.

However training for personnal grow could be.

More over a company that I have worked for get around this they offered pilot's type training if they sign a personnal loan over a 2 year period which decreases monthly. That way if the pilot left before 2 years they got some money back if he stayed they got him for 2 years. It seems fair:hmm:

Training Contracts
 

Hello All,

Does anyone have any experience with training contracts for Part 135 helicopter operators in the US?

I have just started with a company who sort of "surprised" me with one which was not part of the initial offer. I am now trying to gather some information.

My plan is NOT to leave the company anytime soon, and certainly not within the year they are concerned about, but I would still like to know what I can about the legalities, or illegalities of such a thing.

Thanks for your posts. Fly safely.

Scott