R22 & R44 blade delamination
 

this photograph is the lower side of a new (300 hour) stainless r22 blade.
the cracks extend between the red lines.
most of the hours have been done at a flying school.
one of the four different incidents of blade delaminations was only detected when the blade was removed by a service centre.
there has been one instance from canada i am told. of the four instances in australia they have all been well under 1000 hours
go back to the old blade regime and do a thorough examination of the blade root laminates. even maybe the old tap test.
http://www.bluetonguehelicopters.com...e/robcrak1.jpg
a defect report has been lodged with casa but nothing yet.

Imabell

I can't see the cracks too well in the photo. Are they following the curve of the thicker "blade grip" (whatever it's called) Is there some sort of epoxy under the paint at the edge of the "grip" to smooth out the edge? Is the crack just in the epoxy (if it exists) or is the crack from truly lifted layer of metal?

wear & tear
 

undue fatigue possible from overspeed or other unusual high stressing of blade?
or is this an unusual early delamination from a relatively new & well taken care of bird, (no known incidents).

being from a flying school, potential for the unknown has increased; is the student likely to admit or even be aware of the error if they did something untowards (even if unintentionally).

the cracks are the marks that you can see. the doubler has come away from the blade itself.

gadget, i really don't think it is related to overstressing in any way but we are looking at all aspects.

Could it be as simple as high humidity, sea air and hot weather...?

if that was the case i would never get in one again

Jeez that NC is a rough bastard!!:}

Is this a crack or a doubler disbond?
A crack is not the same as a disbond.
I think maybe the correct word here is disbond.
The word delamination normally applies to composite plies separating.
Disbond is the word for metal parts that come unglued.

:eek: That's scary to see, but good training on what to look for in daily's.

You said that the delam was on the underside, due to coning is it never going to happen on the top?

Do you know the history of the machine? Do they overload the '22? Overpitch, etc?

Thank God it was found! Good work whoever saw it AND spoke up.

another r22 blade has been found in northern queensland with a delamination of the doubler today. apparently there have been three cases reported in the states as well.

robinson has told this owner to send the blade back and they will look at repairing it.

slowrotor, i think the term you are looking for is debonding but who cares what we call it, it is a bad situation we are talking about, lots of down time and lots of money.

there are a lot of people relying on their machines staying in the air for a very big season and to have what seems to be an emerging problem confronting them can be a bit worrying to say the least.

this is now the fifth machine this year with well under a thousand hours, (two at under 300), to suffer from this problem and there has been no words of assurance or otherwise emanating from the powers that be.

two defect notices have been lodged with australia's civil aviation safety authority now. so we sit and wait. the first defect notice was lodged over 6 weeks ago and no word yet, the second one was a couple of days ago. we operate three robbies at the moment and don't need them sitting on the ground.

don't mind me - I'll ask all the dumb questions
 

re: overpitching & coning

what are the tell-tale signs of excessive coning (never seen one or photos of one) are there visible wrinkles on the topside of the blade ?

if excessive coning was a culprit would the 'debond' be likely to occur on the underside prior to any other indications.

am interested in what other people have seen / experienced
so would appreciate anybody setting me straight.

not trying to point the finger just asking the obvious i suppose.
being robbies are currently all i have the opportunity to fly - it is a little disconcerting.

Aw, that's nothing...
 

So how do we get bell to re release the 47 :ok: or do we all have to fly 300s:yuk:

In another end of the world
 

We get "delamination" at the roots of the blades on our Blackhawks fairly frequently (right at the very inside of the blade, where the root meets the blade for the first time) -- the prop and rotor guys put a bit of pro-seal and spray-paint on it and call it fixed until it shows up again. It looks like a crack, but is only a split of the sealing compound (so they say).

Granted, the R22 blade may be vastly different in construction, or there may be some uneducated prop-and-rotor guys in the military, but had I seen a crack like that on an R22 I was pre-flighting, I wouldn't fly... not to say I wouldn't trust a qualified mechanic to say it was good to go.

Heres to safe flying
-Mike

There have been two case's in NZ of R22 Dash 4 blades delaminating . Both put down to high stress . I.e lifting to much

imabell,
The reason I was asking if the blade is cracked or disbonded is because it might be repairable as twinhueyman has suggested. It might be a crack in the paint, I cannot tell from the photo. I dont know what is acceptable in this case because I dont work on Robinson.
Not all surface imperfections are cause for alarm. Get the proper information.
I have seen props replaced by mechanics that did not have the proper maintenance manual that clearly listed acceptable surface cracks that occur in normal use. So who cares what you call it you ask. I would care if I owned this aircraft.
If the blade is not repairable, then of course I understand your frustration.

slowrotor
(retired mechanic/inspector)

slow rotor, the doubler has delaminated it is not a crack it is a delamination.

i have all the facts, i have all the proper information, this is not hearsay i have seen the blade.

bushbandit, i don't know how much load you guys put on blades and machines but i have seen film of some obviously heavy loads slingshotted of mountains and carried out by some mountain pilots in new zealand.

i would have to be reasonably sure that testing of the loads to breaking point of any helicopter rotor blade would be at least to double the weight of the machine. i am reasonably sure that any manufacturer would not manufacture blades that are rated to within a couple of kilos over max gross. the margin for safety has to be large or you would not have the confidence to fly. i am sure even in the new zealand alps your robbies cannot lift enough to break a blade. (i have flown there).

there are repair allowances for the doublers on 47's and jet rangers by cutting the doubler back beyond the debonded section and feathered back to the blade skin. this is what robinson is now looking at trying (experimenting).

twinhueyman, i'm with you, if the engineer says it's ok, just keep an eye on it i'll go flying. the problem here is nobody is saying anything and the engineers are grounding helicopters.

imabell
Anyone who has had anything to do with R22's in a working environment (which I'm sure you have) knows what disc loading they are capable of.
If there is some type of fault with the glue or the bonding process at manufacture a flying school would be the perfect place to test it out. Doing autos all the time the machine would be subject to the most demanding aspect in that area (High coning angle/low RRPM).
There is overspeed limits, MTOW limits but there is no coning angle limit at the bottom of an auto. I would guess that it is assumed that if you exceed the coning angle limit your attention would be more focused on the bent skids and wrinkled firewall.
As far as lifting too much goes I would tend to think that is a load of crap. An R22 won't get off the ground if its AUW is causing excessive coning. They would be subject to such things anyway in the form of G loading in certain manouvers.
Though other aircraft do debond/delaminate/come unstuck/unglue/f*%$#n break in that area they appear to have a bit more reliance when it comes to the integrity of the blade. ie B47.
I am sure that you would agree that the R22 is a sensational machine but these things do turn up on them from time to time and I would be more enclined to think that this is some type of manufacturing anomally. I hope for your sake Frank sees it that way.

yes bellfest to all of those things.

having a blade delaminate and talking about it is one thing but the repercussions involved with multiple occurrences is our major worry. we operate three robbies, one with a delamination, and three bells, but you have to imagine the plight of the single and multiple robbie operator whoe suffers this problem, the time frame to fix it, right at the begginning of the mustering season.

there are abot 200 machines used in mustering and every one of the owners has their collective fingers crossed that this does not escalate.

i have since learnt of another blade that has come unstuck in australia that makes six.

i also have heard a rumour that there have been instances at the factory before delivery but i cannot substantiate this.

R22 blades
 

407
That looks like only half the pic, what did the drag brace area look like?
Heard of an incident many moons ago from a company in east OZ. They had a fruit loop (aren’t we all?) driving a 12E in mustering mode. Hero hits a tree and did more damage than your pic and decided to hack saw the offending bent areas off, about nine inches or so. The story of course does not stop there, our hero turned engineer all of sudden and reckons that he needs to balance the system so cuts the same amount off of the other but so far unblemished blade and flies around for another fifty or so hours until the next 100. Rumour has it that our hero left his place of employ on foot, at a very fast clip, without even picking up his check when confronted by the boss.

Twin huey
I am with you too, if your gut feeling is nogo, then I don’t go, contracts don’t pay for expensive holes in the ground.

Acsj
You’re onto it, but the price of fuel gees every drop saved counts, or maybe you could suggest to Frank he could use a scaled model of one of those two mentioned types of blades on the R22. Hmmmm an 269 series blade onto the R22 series, given the history of why-for the R22, that would stir a real ruckus in Torrance HQ!!

Slowrotor
From the MM sect 9.130 h) 1. “Blades must be tap tested using a 1965 (or later US quarter in good condition.” (Really, yep a bloody 1965 quater! I read that a few times to make sure. Did HAA hang that one on him and did one qrtr each get sent with all of the exported models?)

Allowable; “no single void larger than .10 square inch.” I read that as 1 inch long a tenth of an inch deep. That is not much. I could easily stand to be corrected!
Section 9.130 is called up by section 2.410 Item 13. (Part of the 100 hourly)

Make sure that no-one does a tap test until referring to the diagrams or they are well briefed as to where the bonded areas are. If they tap outside a bonded area they’re liable to U.S. the blade. BE CAREFUL THEY ARE FRAGILE.

So far I am hearing that they are all early production blades but that is being checked.

No doubt Torrance HQ is working around the clock on this, after all the viability of 4,000 helicopters hangs on a viable operational outcome quite soon.

Not to mention that a multitude of operators in North Australia who have been delayed on their mustering season start because of so much cyclonic activity and the entire north Australian cattle industry who also depend on these helicopters.

If these defects have been known for a while one might have thought that there could/should be a daily inspection both visual and tap test required by now by Robinson and or CASA, FAA and NZ CAA. That is assuming all authorities received Defect reports!

There is of course already a requirement in the POH to visually check the blades for cracks; however a special purpose AD or SB would be a good idea at least to clarify –is it or isn’t it OK- do you know????

How many people really check for cracks when doing a daily, or even venture up toward the head? There are only three things in a daily that will kill you if you miss them no matter how big or small the aircraft.

They are the three C’s. 1. CRACK, 2. CHAFING, 3 CORROSION and the little S, for Security.

Re cost, the MM states also that; “Voids or debonds are NOT field repairable.”

This means return to factory, it should mean return to approved service centre for approved repair. The time and cost to ship blades across a continent and then the Pacific Ocean and back again all without being damaged would be monumental. If necessary it would be much better and cheaper to have a Robinson senior technician attend and supervise these repairs at some of the major service centres.

IMABELL paints a horrible financial picture if the blade security is not attended to quickly. Fair enough!

It does have the potential to disrupt a big industry particularly considering that all the Sidney Kidmans' are on their heals and ready to race after what has been a pleasant reprieve after the last 8 years or so. A wet season like this will be beneficial not only this year but for a few to come also.
Considering the repurcussions of a "grounding" I don't think that will happen. It would be more likely that a SB will be issued stating additional attention to the blade roots during daily inspections with diagrams and measurements etc. followed up by an AD from CASA somewhere in the second round!
It could turn to **** for a few that actually find a delam.
Robinson really need to sort their blade issues out.
You might have to ferry a few of those 47's north and get in amongst it old school if the worst were to happen.

topendtorque
If that 12E story is true than old mate is the stupidest and most precise man with a hacksaw I have ever heard of. Not to mention fit, with f$#@en good blades.

blades
 

Bellfest
he was one strange character, history doesn't say how many hack saw blades. I have had a go at 47 blades and gave up up in favor of an electric driven power hacksaw. where the gent is now I don't know, at other times he had a penchant for flying around the outback with a 44 gallon drum on one litter half full of rocks and geiger counters and on the other, one half full of fuel, the cabin had his gear, several drums of oil and him -- usually giggling!!
True story. A happy chappy. and people ask on these threads about mustering jobs!!!

Let's face it the 12E was built like the proverbial, i've only a few hours in them but you're right the paddles should have sailed off into the blue for sure. ask mr Imabell about him, i reckon he would have known him-- and his previous employers.

mr selfish
Yes you are spot on, we should not talk about one of their AD's on the same machine last episode should we. However insurance rules the roost and sooner rather than later those turkeys as well had better start playing the game.

Someone could become very wealthy if they designed an articulating rotor
head and composite blades to retrofit the R22. Lord knows Frank and his
clan cannot.

Thanks to imabell
 

I help run one of the Robbie safety courses in Oz and NZ. One thing I have noticed over the past 13 years (1,500 studnets) is that we are all reluctant to report defects.

Being out in the bush, or away from our friendly man with the spanners in the workshop. Maybe we don't know how to?

Sometimes a class will tell us all about a series of problems, unknown away from their hangar floor. If CASA, CAA NZ, ATSB, Robinson, etc are not told about bugs that appear from time to time, then we tend to find out in a fatal.

The saga of the R22 blade failures was known well in advance, it took some fatals to bring it into focus. No one talked to each other, and the vital clues slipped away as simply a "one off" fault.

Half the Oz fleet are Robinsons. Mustering drivers fly more hours than anyone else. Beef prices have never been better, according to some, so we cannot afford to have our fleet grounded just as the mustering seasons starts, being delayed by the four cyclones.

I congratule imabell for bringing this to our attention. If any one else is finding a recurring problem, just PM me and I will try and pass it onto to someone who may be able to help.

We must work together, there are too many jobs at risk - let alone lives. Apart from my these problems, the Robbies are very safe if flown to their limits - and no more!

Maybe whacking a 360 cubic inch (180HP) into the airframe to relace the 320 (160HP) rubber band without beefing up the airframe has caused these problems?

It is even more importnat than ever to not overload the hard working and reliable machine.

Thanks again to imabell.

The blades should be designed to take anything that aircraft weight can throw at them to be able to cope with aerodynamic loads.
Would it be fair to say that if an engine was to cause delamination due to too much torque it would be a very impressive machine performance wise? They are pretty good but not that good.
With the R22 teetering and flappimg head this would be reduced even more so.
You could suspect spindell damage as operational but not delam. It is a very sterile procedure and it wouldn't take a lot to have in inferior batch
Now, flapping in the breeze while shutdown could be a contributor. The stress in that particular area may be more so without any centrifugal force. Much more likely than overpitching I would think.

Mr Selfish
 

You are spot on.

Since the R22 HP model took the power to 160 HP from 150 HP the weight was kept at 1300 lbs. Aim was to get better high altitude performance, not to overboost or go out too heavy.

As there was a need to carry a bit more, the Alpha went to 1370 lbs. Limit was still 124 HP.

The limit since the Beta was introduced has always been 131 HP for takeoff - limit five minutes.

Then max cruise using 124 HP.

The bigger 180 HP engine was to provide even better high altitude performance. The power falls away as you climb up to a mountain top.

It is a derated engine by RPM and MAP. The placard says it all!

I was watching that now famous NZ video on the R22 and noted the powere settings recorded by the camera. Bit scary I thought.

All we have to do is keep within the limits.

The old farts who say "if it can hover" it is OK. Do they really understand that metal has memory?

One industry icon recently told me that he gets going by turning off the governor, overspeeding the rotor, overboosting MAP as it struggles through TL, then governor back on.

When asked how heavy he was - with two big guys, full fuel, a rifle, ammo, seats full, etc.

His answer said it all: "Dunno"

imabell
Could you keep me posted on the outcome of this? I would be very interested in what type of support you get from Robinson over this.
Cheers

have no fear, we are waiting for an answer from anyone and we will let you know.

dash2 or dash4?
 

imabell,

was the blade in the pic you posted a dash2 or dash4 blade?

cheers!

blades
 

Dash four!!

is weight an issue?
 

If a heavy aircraft puts undue stress on the blades, what happens when the pilot does a steep turn - 2g, or even more. I am yet to see a flight manual (that I can remember) having a positive g limit for helicopters. 50 kg overloaded is nothing compared to a 1450 kg jetranger pulling 2.5g - 3625 kg and more.

Can someone please point me in the right direction of the infamous video to which Robsrich is referring in his above post?

regards,
Mark

[QUOTE=TwinHueyMan]We get "delamination" at the roots of the blades on our Blackhawks fairly frequently (right at the very inside of the blade, where the root meets the blade for the first time) -- the prop and rotor guys put a bit of pro-seal and spray-paint on it and call it fixed until it shows up again.

Gee's I didn't know that Pro Seal could be used to fix rotor blades. Sort of like the hot glue gun fix an old employer use to do on his run out rotor blades. I myself would be real reluctant to fly any machine so repaired. Band aid fixes will kill you if you give ithem a chance to. What are the Tech rep's saying is the problem and the fix?

I don't have anytime in the R-22 to speak of, it seems to me that this has been an on going problem for the Robinson. Seems to me that its an very expensive helicotper for what you really get.

mark
 

you'll find the video here www.videosouth.com it is titled 'the robinson R22.'

I have no pecuniary interest in the outfit. you will find the vis is excellent.

The aurals are also 'very' interesting, like -'its got 180 horsepower!!'

George S
Yes there was a major problem with the original blades;
-1's- low inertia and a quality control prob which snuffed out a swedish guy that trained with me at Air-Log;

-2's had better inertia- well they did to any of us that had flown -1's where it was reef at the bottom and whoosh became whhhhoooooshhh in a about three revs. -2's also had a creeping corrosion prob interrelated with a structure prob but really most of the failures they had would not have happened if the players had stuck to the rules;

-3's never hit the stands;

-4's that we now have are showing a debonding at the outboard end of the doubler. as per imabell's original post

so far our info is that there are 4 in OZ, 2 in US (one from canada) and a suggestion of 2 from NZ. serial #s as far as we know in the 1000 to 1100 and age from 330 to 780hrs and yes, it may end up costing several arms and legs.

Goodbye R22's ?
 

As a former mustering pilot with a few hours in 22's I was quite sad to hear the "rumour" that Frank is not going to make the 22 any more. Apparently he is going to concentrate on the 44's and the elusive R66 (turbine). Has anyone else heard this? I know someone who is going to Torrance soon and says he will find out, i'll let you know what they say....

Yes I did a Robbie saftey course with Tim Tucker (R22 test pilot) and he said that the factory has an Airframe that they are testing but are not happy with the powerplant, So Frank has given Allison/Rolls Royce a lot of money to come up with a hybrid C20/C30 engine (C25?)to power the beasty, He is also in negotiations with Mercedes Benz about designing a diesel specifically for the R66 as an option.
By the way that saftey course was the best $600 i've spent on flying, But if you do it make sure it is taken by a factory test pilot like Tim - I learnt so much about the designs of other types as well :ok:

casa has looked at one of the blades now and tells us that not only has it delaminated on the bottom doubler but on the top as well even though we could not see it.

there has been only one defect report submitted to casa even though there are several instances of similar delamination. i have no idea why this is not reported by the relevant engineers even though the blades have been sent back to the factory for replacement.

casa is going to write to all operatotrs and explain the situation and get everyone to inspect their blades. we don't know if it will become an ad.

maybe it was one batch, maybe, just maybe. do they make batches?????

Report those defects!!!!!!
 

imabell is spot on here!

As per my post of 22 Apr - you must make sure the "system" is advised.

Then the regulators and the makers can see what is actually happening in the fleet.

Better paperwork now, than a funeral later!

Help the system to help you.

Who would buy an r66 when after twenty somthing years and 4000 r22's they still can't get the blades right.:eek:

Just thought I'd bring this topic up again, see if there is anything new on this important issue ... any more cases, has RHC or any national CAA made any statements ?