Dragon helicopters...make up your own mind (Merged)
 

a word for word email, i'm sorry it's come to this, but maybe it'll help others from making the mistake I did.

Dear ...........

This is email is written to ask you to complete the final payment left outstanding from my tuition fees from 2 months ago. The outstanding amount is 800 pounds plus my account fee of 25 which I incured having gone overdrawn after a promise was made to pay me prior to going on holiday. If this final payment has not been settled within 10 days you leave me no choice but to persue the payment through the small claims court at Biscester and I will be obliged to inform the CAA. I hope, in all sincereity that it doesn't come to that.

Steve Francis



Hi Steve,

we have already paid you an extra £50 as this was the amount you previously informed me your bank had charged you for going overdrawn when you went on holiday. I presume, therefore, that I can deduct £25 from the outstanding amount and we therefore owe you £775.

As stated before, we will pay you as soon as we have the money, and this is still the case. We have no intention of not settling the bill in full. You have to accept that companies are not always able to pay within 30 days due to circumstances beyond their control: this is certainly the case when I am working freelance and there have been occasions when I have waited more than 120 days to be paid.

If you want to take us to court that¹s up to you but you won¹t get your money any faster; we can¹t pay what we don¹t have

Kind regards,

Not quite sure who is whom in this (and perhaps that's a good thing before this thread gets pulled) BUT

it is illegal to use the excuse "pay when paid". The supplier has a statutory right to charge interest now. If a company does not have the cash to pay it's debts then it is trading illegally and can be wound up.

A Winding-Up petition (under Insolvency Act 1986 - can't remember the section number after a couple of glasses of merlot) can be made to the Courts where a debt (or total of debts) is greater than £800. This means, that unless the Limited Company can demonstrate that it can pay it's debts and has another dispute with the supplier, then the court can deem the company to be trading illegally and issue a Compulsory Winding-Up Order. Basically, the company will be liquidated.

Whoever wrote the latter part of the e-mail is treading on very dodgy ground. It is not the supplier's problem that there is no cash. The debtor should seek further overdraft funds from the bank or the directors/shareholders should put more capital into the company to raise funds (issue of shares/debentures/long term loans) or seek to find further investors.

Of course, this would require a sound business plan and if overdrafts have already been increased, then a bank might be reluctant to extend.

If the second correspondent has any issue with what I've written, please feel free to PM me.

Cheers

Whirls (ACA!)

Actually, that rather reminds me of the time a friend of mine issued a winding up order on BT for non payment of debts (but that's another story).

As a supplier to Dragon, I would have to say they have been consistently the BEST payer of all commercial and flying schools I've ever traded with.

h-r :)

If only I was as lucky as you helicopter redeye, it's 90 <edit> days now.

The secret is in the contract and persistent pestering for payment of invoices from the date of issue (usually within 3 minutes of the service being delivered).

Smiling at the phone when asking for the money is quite helpful as well. Sets the tone as friendly but firm.

Luck? Nein! Pluck? Ja!

h-r:)

pugzi
is this a letter to dragon or from dragon to a student
steve

I was an instructor for them, the first letter is me writing to them, the second is their reply to me.
I certainly did all that helicopter redeye, alas being nice this time hasn't helped, so I have no choice but to let the courts help me. It was actually very easy to do online. Time for bed now.

pugzi,
At least you got an honest answer, if not a fair deal. Many won't even bother to explain their situation, at least in the States. Going to court is surely justified, of course. Good luck.

Pugzi: dont forget to charge them everything when it goes to small claims court:

In addition to your fone/paper/postage costs etc:
1. daily interest accruing on full amount.
And the best:
2. your charges for taking the day off to go to court. That normally wakes them up when they see what they will have to pay in the end.
Thank goodness for small claims courts eh?


Good luck and lets hope word gets out about Dragon before Heliport pulls the accused names from the thread!

Thank you all for your advice, it's comforting to know I'm doing the right thing even though it makes me feel terrible to take someone to court.
Kind regards

pugzi,

Don't feel terrible. It's only business. You deserve to get paid for the services you provided. You are completely entitled and expected to take all reasonable actions to protect your own interests.

You could be viewed as a wimp if you did not persue your debtors with with every means available to you.

Don't make this personal. Hopefully, with a satisfactory resolution to this situation, the persons responsible will not view you in any other light than that of being a level headed businessman and pilot.

Hell hath no fury like a flight instructor scorned!




I think Kissmysquirrel said it best with:

"Just remember, most small schools will shaft you at the first opportunity.
Unless you can find work with a respectable, reputable company, my advice now is don't bother unless you want to be treated like sh*t!!
Don't work for one man band outfits out of portacabins, too many used car salesmen type people think they can run heli businesses when they couldn't run sh*t."

Unfortunately there are no costs awarded for claims under £5000.00.

You will get £50.00 maximum towards your costs

But the costs under Small Claims Court are fixed as is the formula for calculating interest (or they certainly were the last time I did one!). Those fixed costs are added to the claim. Since a small claim involves very little work and it can all be done by the claimant, these costs will contra.

Cheers

Whirls

If you add the costs you incur to a final figure and make that figure the claim figure and win - you'll get all of that back. Did it with...***.. and they had to pay for a days release from work!

Thanks Thomas I did just that and finished the claim online this evening, heres hoping it gets sorted. Your all stars for the advise. Ta

I'm surprised this thread has lasted so long to be honest! I don't think there is much to be gained by naming and shaming hence my offer to this company to give them some advice on how to manage their cash flow and what their legal position is.

It could have sufficed to ask what are the best steps in getting a debtor to pay in which case many of the answers would have been the same.

Cheers

Whirls

Your right Whirlgig, i didn't have to name and shame, but I was upset and didn't want others, especially students to suffer what I have. But mainly I think I did it because I was upset and I wanted to upset them too I suppose. Revenge is never a good thing I know, but alas it's done. I have calmed down now. Would I have still done it, maybe, I'm not sure.
And kissmysquirrel, thanks for the support, you can be my lawyer anytime

Naming and shaming is not necessarily a bad thing. Hopefully those responsible (and anybody else in the industry) will think twice before doing the same (or similar) again.

Self regulation - makes the whole industry more professional.

To be honest, I'm not sure it does come across as professional. This is a very small world and pugzi has identified his real name. Some operators may respect him for what he's done but others may not. I'm not talking about the act of taking a school to the Small Claims Court (which, without knowing the full facts, without prejudice etc, was the right thing to do) but publicly announcing it on this forum. I know of a couple of Chief Pilots who read but don't post so you never know who's looking.

Just to play Devil's Advocaat here, we only have pugzi's word that that was the verbatim e-mails sent and received. We haven't heard Dragon's side and there may be a dispute so we none of us should be quick to judge.

I do think the course of action is correct and Pugzi, when you get a cheque from them, take a photocopy so that if they do it again, you can ask the courts for a Garnishee Order (great fun they are!) whereby the courts can take the money out of the acocunt - if they have it.

This operator is a new outfit so appropriate checks such as Companies House filing of Statutory Accounts will not yield much. But, for future, it is worth checking out Companies House for any new customer. You will need the full name and/or number which should be on the bottom of their letterhead (if they are a Limited Company). If it isn't, that's breaking Companies Act 85. Online this only costs about a fiver compared with Dun & Bradstreet or Experian reports which are upwards of £30 a pop. If you are serious about dealing with a particular organisation, then I would recommend D&B.

Cheers

Whirls

I agree Whirls - a silent tounge is a wise tounge....you just can't say what you like in this game and you NEVER know who's watching ! :suspect:

KMS - there are TWO RBs and yes, both read Pprune and yes, both have worked out who I am!! Both are also in a position to recruit if not pay wages.

Cheers

Whirls

The quick, no fuss way to get money owed to you in England & Wales is to use the moneyclaim.gov.uk website run by the Courts Service. You can process the whole thing online for very little cost and the Courts system then takes over.
Have used it twice this year on bad debts and got money + costs within 3 weeks.

I totally agree Pugzi is right to stand up for himself, but to go public.....not so sure......I would press the big D button mate ! :(

Why do you all assume Pugzi is a flight instructor, Dragon do CPL groundschool as well.

I can't see anywhere where that assumption (whether made or otherwise) makes any difference to the responses given - this is down to debt and non-payment thereof!

Cheers

Whirls

Who needs the facts - this still is a 'rumour' network, right?

Trouble with UK helicopter community and the popularity of this forum is that some people regard 'all' postings as gospel.

There's probably an 'Old Chinese Proverb' out there that can sum it up better than I can but:

Thank you pugzi for using this forum to highlight a 'possible' rogue operator BUT thank you Whirlygig, and others, for reminding 'prune-dependants' that there are always many sides to a story.................

Like the idea of that 'online' claim scheme...................

For what its worth I think it is quite wrong to post any dispute with your contractor on this site. As has been said here already we only have the complainant's word for this and no notion of the complete picture.

I will say, and back it up to anyone who chooses to ask me privately, that Dragon Helicopters have just paid me a cheque for an amount negotiated for a cancelled free lance pilot's job a little while ago. It would have been easy for them to argue that nothing was due!

I hope this brings some balance to a "debate" that seems to delight in demonising those in this industry who have the gumption to try to make small enterprises work in this exceptionally difficult environment and thus provide the whingeing workers with something else to whinge about along with their remuneration.

The thread is important if for no other reason than spreading the knowledge of moneyclaim.gov.uk.

The same for a thread running on the instructors forum regarding formally employed instructors and non payment for required hours on site.

When the ins and outs of each 'spat' are long forgotten the greater good is served by the site providing better knowledge for those in the UK industry.

Regards
rob

Perhaps we should therefore open up this forum to owners and operators to publicly name names of pilots who's mistakes and/or [ profanity deleted ] have cost them money due to repair of machines after incidents.

After all, do they not have a right to know what reputation the people they are hiring have?

I am a Management Accountant for my sins and have worked in very few organisations who have paid suppliers on time. Whether it is because of a lack of funds or simply to manage the cashflow, it happens in all industries.

Minty,

I think you'll find though that the tide is turning. I have worked for comanies now that very much have a "pay on time" philosophy as they have realised that the goodwill generated by paying suppliers on time outweighs the cash flow.

Trading without the ability to pay debts is illegal trading.

As for your first point, given that the helicopter fraternity is so small, I have a feeling that word gets round anyway!

Cheers

Whirls

Minty,

It's possible for an employer to insure their interests against genuine mistakes made by pilots - it's part of the risk of the aviation business.

It's NOT possible for a pilot to insure against an employer screwing him by not paying him for employment services given. What about the pilot's cash-flow problem? No doubt Management Accountants still get paid, come what may! :hmm:

A colleague of mine is still owed a considerable amount of salary by a company who decided not to pay him before the owner declared bankruptcy. Almost immediately after the company assets were liquidated, the owner of the company (a well known name in the car racing fraternity) immediately set himself up under a different name and carried on trading. His secretary recently phoned my colleague when they needed some important information referring to his employment but as they weren't inclined to pay for the information they didn't get it. Parasites. This sort of thing is one reason why pilots get bitter and twisted.

Loyalty? Unfortunately all too often companies receive it from their employees but when the chips are down it becomes a one way street.....

Minty

Whirlygig is right, your living in the dark ages.
I built up successful computer distribution company over a 9 year period. In that time I never once bounced a cheque or failed to pay any of my suppliers on time. In fact I used to pay over 50% of my suppliers on delivery, this gave us a great reputation within the industry and meant we got better prices than most of our competitors and were always offered the premium deals first. This policy was one of the keys to our success.

Any company who fails to pay for a service or goods is basically stealing. If you went to Tesco for your weekly shopping and told the girl/guy on the checkout “I’ll pay you when I can” before driving off would they not call the police?

My company used to get lot’s of bad debts from companies who ordered our goods sold them at cost or even at a loss to pay other creditors/staff. These people usually start a business with no sound business plan or financial backing. It used to make me so mad.

Use moneyclaim.gov.uk to nail them. Once you get a reputation of not rolling over and waiting for ever to get paid your customers start to pay on-time.

Rant over..

Minty Fresh Just out of curiosity ..... was your salary paid on time or were you content to be paid as and when it best suited your employer's cashflow?

Re making people wait for money they are owed ..... do you draw any distinction between large-scale suppliers and sole traders?

Insurance comes with an excess - it still costs the owners and sometimes those excesses are large.

Dark Ages? No - Small Manufacturing Business? Could be.

The only way a lot of small businesses survive is to pay late - as the people they supplied are doing exactly the same - I know I had to try and get the money out of them!!!

Ok, its not trading legally but people aren’t going to role over, give in and let their company fold. They will do anything to keep it going through rough times.

The two aren’t too dissimilar- British Manufacturing is on its arse and there is very little margin in grass routes aviation.

I'm sure eventually they'll be the idyllic world where everyone pays ontime - in the mean time remember that there's probably people owing Dragon too!

"Insurance comes with an excess - it still costs the owners and sometimes those excesses are large."

Yes, aviation business can be risky due to accidents, always so, but how can you compare that to a company arbitrarily deciding not to pay earned salary / wages to an individual because they would prefer to spend the money elsewhere?

A more valid comparison would be an individual not turning up for work because he prefers to work for someone else, but subsequently expecting to be paid for the time he wasn't there!

And would YOU accept it if it happened to yourself? I doubt it very much, no-one would.

Aviation CANNOT happen without pilots, however much management (and accountants) would wish otherwise.

I fully appreciate that we have not heard Dragon's side of the story but the UK helicopter aviation industry is a small world and Dragon would be very wise to sort this out asap.

Don't necessarily name the assailants! (legally dodgy anyway) BUT definitely discuss the scenario so the industry can be warned. An interested party can always dig deeper to find the names, I'm sure.

Can't believe there are people like Minty who still think it's moral (and essential) to delay payments to suppliers....Who do you think you are?
If you (as a small manufacturer) can't pay when due - pack up and move over for a more resiliant company who deserves your niche in the marketplace.
Refuse to pay me for my services - and I'll send the boys round.

Minty won't be the smell eminating from your office thereafter! :mad:

Sorry to repeat but I highly recomend the online Small Claim Court at:

https://www.moneyclaim.gov.uk/csmco2/index.jsp

Very easy to use and you can have the balifs round in a couple of months from starting the procedure (I have done it).
That will focus the mind of the debtor I can assure you.

Stand up for what is yours.
This guy is not a friend of yours any more so send in the heavies.
Act before he goes bust and then you wished you had acted sooner.

Good luck

Thomas Coupling - I'll PM home address for the boys or you. Smell it – you’ll be sitting in it - Now lets continue this debate without snide remarks.

I think you need to distinguish the two types of people who don't pay.

There are those who are tw@ts - bankrupt themselves not paying anyone and retire to nice home in spanking new cars. The other type are people whom have/are struggling to run a fledgling company. I'm sure if every businessman had a quitter mentality then the World would be short of a few very successful business people now who struggled in there early career.

So let me get this right, you're of the second kind are you?

You find yourself struggling so to make life a little less of a problem for yourself you delay paying your suppliers for as long as possible.
That way there's a chance you might make it thru the next month...oh bye the way, to hell with the other fledgling company waiting for their money eh?

Lovely mantra minty....what a delightful person you must be.

Don't tell me...even if you did go bust and still owed everybody...you're also the struggling little manufacturer who'll pop up next week trading under a different name:E

Mmmmmm - hope you sleep well at night.