Your scources have not given you the full truth or your putting two and two together and getting five:=

Your right Volrider, Looks like PANews is getting increasingly desperate to try and bully the Explorer fleet by pushing out inaccurate rumour and since when did this thread turn from a spares problem rumour to a 902 bashing thread.
As if PANews doesn't waste enough time on his monthly work of fiction that he has to spread his one sided views here. Still I can't blame him for clutching at straws. He knows as well as all the police units do that the end of the Dutch contract will free up masses of R+D for the Explorer which will blow the 135 and 145 out of the water.

Dr A

As I said it was a rumour, so .....

1. It does not get into print in the magazine unless substantiated.

2. It's open for correction.


If it is substantially wrong [and it was not ME that invented the rumour upon which I based the post] I guess there may be a need for someone out there to put out the correct version.

I like Dr Atkins prescription for putting everything right in MDs camp .... freeing up some research money thanks to the KLPD cancellation .... but MD have gone on public record saying that they are carrying on with certification of the KLPD standard.... so this may take some time.... 3 months Dale said ....

Exactly where the Dr will get '... masses of R+D for the Explorer... ' I would be interested to learn. MD are in a very poor financial state - have you not been listening?

'... which will blow the 135 and 145 out of the water...'

Good.... it would be great to see substantial competition but the 135 is JAR27 and the 145 is JAR29.... perhaps you want to add the EC155 ... 225... and the Tiger to the list....?

Seriously, in its current parlous financial state, even if it happens it will be a long time before MDHI and the Explorer are in a fit enough state to merely pull themselves together let alone blow anything out of the water. Wishful thinking will not magic the spares [the core of this thread] from out of the ether.

There are plenty of operators out there that are publicly ditching the airframe because they claim they have reached the end of their particular tether. Case in point is Suffolk County Police NY. This is not something I have created, I just report what appears to be going on based on their statements in the public domain.

Here? Well fishing for the truth on an incomplete storyline ... just like many others who hide their identity.

I know many have labelled me as a 100% Explorer hater but just reporting stories in the public domain does not mean the stories themselves are without substance.

Volrider.... Accuracy - if you know it as you claim .... can be entered in your next post..... Inaccurate rumours, like the one I picked up, will still wizz around damaging the Explorer unnecessarily unless they are comprehensively put down.

And it its not enough to just say WRONG... You are clearly saying there is something .... and not even that its unimportant.... That is probably worse. You may keep 'the truth' within the UK community but how might that help other operators out of the UK?

As for me being 'increasingly desperate' ...

No, the Explorer is just one [very interesting] aircraft in my domain. Even on a real heavy news day on the type it is just one page in 26, that's nothing.

You want to talk Cessna Caravan?

"Inaccurate rumour" - here - REALLY ?

PAN may have assumed it was the West Mids a/c with duff blade pins, as there hasn't been any info to say if their gearbox problem has been sorted, and you you would need to get the blades off before working on the gearbox - WHEN WAS THIS PAN ?

Surely PAS are working on other a/c that also need the blades off - so why else would he assume it was the West Mids one ?

Anyone confirm if that ship is back on line yet ???

PANews,

I think your sources need tweeking a bit.
WMID hasn't been to BJ for a while now, as I think you are aware!

Still, truth - good story and all that :ok:

SS

Arguments about single and individual problems won't help here. The thread will turn into a "lets slag off any problem the 902 has" and people will switch off. The questions on downtime and repeat snags are valid, the press have EVERY right to ask what taxpayers money is doing. The arguments should not get personal either. Remember 902 people, we actually want your product to be good. We are brothers in arms who do the same job. We are not in competition, if the 902 'blows the competition away', then brilliant!! Eurocopter will need to keep up with them and we will all get a better product as well. (T2 upgrade is great). However, you should not put up with crap customer support. Big companies will take you to the cleaners if you just roll over.

In view of the previous post I will keep this short....

My post of...

... Explorers [POSSIBLY the West Midlands airframe] at PAS....

assumed [as in POSSIBLY] that there might be only one airframe currently needing major transmission related work at PAS at this time. Obviously wrong.

I did not know, do not know [or care?] where WMID is on a day-to-day basis. Neither do I know where any of the 30 other UK police helicopters are day-to-day.... why on earth would I?

PANews,
How sad a world is yours when you have to resort to posting on a public forum to gather information worthy of you monthly rantings, and then just don't seem to get why MDHI nor PAS will give you the time of day. One of your problems is that when you can only get one side of the story, you fabricate the other.

On a more technical note, the "redesigned 'fit and forget'' pins were never ever that. The design has hundreds of thousands of hours on them with problems limited to one customer.....but your journalistic expertise in research probably would never show you that.

PANews,

With respect, you did say; I do, and thought you'd like to know.

Sorry for trying to help you get your facts right.

SS :ouch:

Notar Fan.

Welcome to the Professional Pilots Rumour Network.

Why are you here?

How do you know about my monthly rantings?

How do you know they are monthly?

Sad place to be every month I reckon.

Nuff said.



Silsoe.... yes, sorry you are right I did ask .... but that did not exactly provide an answer!

jayteeto - Quite right too - next thing you know "someone" will be trying to hijack this thread and go into sales mode for suitable 902 replacements !

So before he does - BE WARNED that you will hear "FACTS" quoted that, for example :rolleyes:

( April edition of PAN ) - the EC145 being the chosen new aircraft for UK Met. Police,

While the Met. Police themselves agree that :
and in case there was any doubt at all the Eurocopter Web Site says:
So even quoted facts from PAN aren't always what they seem , never mind the rumours ! :suspect:

In the words of the great someone or other;

The truth is too precious to tell every fool who asks!

Thats why we have sites like this, :ok:

Coconutty that quote ascribed to me was quite clearly a precis ascribed to the Metropolitan Police newspaper The Job. [As quoted, April edition page 7 right at the bottom. The last two words?

[The Job]

Many items in PAN are clearly labelled as to source and errors not necessarily edited out. Errors in the italics I may well plead to.


As far as claimed performance goes professionals know that every airframe has trade-offs.

You can probably go to every UK air support web page operating the Squirrel and read that the AS355F has a 'two hour' patrol time.... uh.... since when?

Shall we tell them off?

I guess that the 145 [which is considerably bigger overall than the 135 and the 900] could quite easily pop a squad of 10 plus the crew across Brixton prison wall but as we all know perfectly well it isn't going to do it non-stop from Glasgow....

The EC Tech Data sheet actually disagrees with The Job. It states '1 or 2 pilots + 7 or 6 passengers....' But I think its likely it means in proper crashworthy seats in that configuration....

Operators such as the French Gendarmerie POSSIBLY where that 12 comes from would not necessarily worry about proper seats for a tactical mission.... so might it be 14?


The truth is too precious to tell every fool who asks!

True!

Aww shucks - just when we were starting to believe PAN ( yeah right ) when he said ... he goes and spoils it by trying to blame it on someone else - so much for the "news" in his "news"paper :yuk:

Anyone else thiink he ought to butt out of this thread unless he's got something useful to say about the topic - SPARES AVAILABILITY ??

I have been told that West Mids having had their MRGB replaced recently, are off line again. I am told that this latest MRGB only lasted a few days. This time I believe they may be AOG for even longer. I feel really sorry for what they are having to put up with.

PANews has a new pen-name.
 

Its called EjectEject. .........unless they have the same sources, .....cos the sure talk the same :yuk: :yuk: :yuk: :yuk:


:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Having stood between a Bk117(basically the same cabin size as a 145) and a 902, I was surprised at how small the 117 interior is considering it's higher weight. Old technology I hear some of you say, but then is not the145 just a 117 with an undated nose and avionic pack( a little too simplistic I grant you but close enough for you to get the drift).

As for fitting 12 or 14 blokes in it, you're having a laugh! Not the size most coppers are.

PAN, who's your source, he doesn't feed you accurate enough information, hope you're not paying them.

Notar Fan, EjectEject was back on thread with rumours about downtime. You say he is talking :yuk: so thank you for telling us that west mids is not actually u/s with another gearbox problem. Is that correct??

PAN said But you report these inaccurate rumours ie the comment about the passenger abilities of the 145, I know as well as most that you are a Eurocopter fan not sure if that is a"paid" occupation. However it seems you are not on many peoples Christmas card list on this forum:E

the MD902 is a fine helicopter in fact I would go as far to say its a better helicopter than the EC135 we all know its quieter and the rear cabin has more space, ergo friendly for the drivers.
Sadly this helicopter is heading in my eyes for a Rover/MG fate. Due to MDH and their problems I fear the Emergency services will lose the best equipment they could get for the money (oh the $ makes the 902 cheaper as well!)
I will rue the day if my fears come to fruition, it will be a sad day when Eurocopter have the field the ball and the goalposts all to themselves, don't kid yourself PAN that this will be good for everyone, less chioce means less competition end result the customer gets shafted:sad:

hmmmm how can i put this
 

i graduated from twin squirrel onto a 902. it looks the part, it sounds (quietly) like the part, a very capable airframe. sure it has had problems, but i challenge you to put your extensive (?) knowlege to name any aircraft type that has not.

sure you cant throw the 902 round like a squirrel and yes its like a large bus in a crosswind but it does exactly what we wanted it to do and more.

one of my colleagues prints out your propaganda every month and leaves it lying round the office. every month i resist picking it up but find myself having to read it to see what nonsense you are spouting this time.

i dont mean to be rude but personally i dont think your mag. is up to much, generally has the same bland content each month. i also chuckled quite heartily to see you dominating this thread trying to justify your existence.

i also understand why many units dont like speaking to you.


regards

TFC.

(ps) imagine if there was another magazine that wrote about the deficiencies of police aviation journalism. i think you would get pretty tired of him ringing you once a week and making up a load of nonsense !

these are my personal views not the view of my employer.

ZZZzzzzzzz
 

Sorry PAN - must have dozed off reading your last post, and sorry also for not knowing the abbreviated names of all the different Police publications you get your "quotes" from. You see not being a Met. Police Bobby I had no idea that "The Job" was their magazine - I thought it was something to do with "The Job" :8

I'll refrain from passing comment about EC135 Arris Pot or Skid Mounting Rubber reliability as this post is about 902 spares :\

quichemech,

the cabins are in fact different between BK117C2 (EC145), and BK117C1/B/A series machines. Cabin has been stretched quite a bit, enough for another row of seats, and is a bit wider too. A company I used to work for takes the maintenance step off of the BK and puts in an extra window for the pax in the very back row (8 pax) for tourist work.

noooby

noooby,

thanks for that, I stand corrected.

Not quite 12/14 yet, is it.:rolleyes: ;)

PAN, have you asked West Mids or PAS to comment?

Coconutty, read the thread again..... Downtime problem?? When the u/c rubbers or a vibro pot go u/s, they get fixed pretty quick. If 902 gearboxes or whatever go u/s it is a long wait. That is what a downtime problem is. Repeating myself again (and again), I know it is a brilliant machine, that has never been in question, but it is no good to anyone sat in a hangar.....
Flying Cop, why cant you throw it around like a squirrel?? and you want me to name an aircraft that hasn't had these problems???? eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeerrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr, can you name an aircraft that HAS had these problems you mean?

NOTAR FAN - I have no association with PAN who I thnk I can work out who he is. I have never spoken to the guy and have no desire to either, not even by using a mirrror when shaving in the morning. My last post is based on fact. I am interested in the unfortanate operators of a good aircraft for its role, when its flying. The thread is about 902 downtime. If PAN and others want to bash each other off the thread, then count me out.

So to clarify and to keep things on the thread - my post on the 29th March using a 902 user as an example about 902 downtime - re West Mids 902 MRGB having to be replaced was fact. It was off line for some time. My post yesterday 11th April - I was told it came back on line last weekend. I was told it lasted about 3-4 days before its started showing metal again. It was certainly yesterday back at PAS. The signs were not looking good again and they expect to off line for some time. Lets hope not.

NOTAR FAN - if you think I am talking whatever, get the phonebook out, ring PAS and find out. Its that easy. Even I can do it.

Ah, you carried on without me...

Well, on balance, it looks like there isn't a clear story relating to pin trouble.... certainly no SB's yet... and that surprisingly enough is all I dared to ask.... so I guess I can leave you to it for a few days and when you have pulled each other to pieces a little bit more .... I can decide whether I need to follow up with a call to PAS or West Mids. [i.e. whether I care]. Run of the mill Explorer downtime is no longer news to any of us I am sorry to say.

I would have thought that anything serious to do with pins would have surfaced by now, so we are just back to those 'usual' servicability problems.

Such is hardly news when Cessna have just flown a new bizjet... the AB139 has apparently been dropped from Deepwater ... and a bank has filed a lawsuit against Franklin County Sheriff.... meanwhile I have to balance two press releases sent in by two air ambulances in the UK [written by others of course] that claim they are the 'busiest in Britain' ... oh woe .... Now which one is telling the truth ... oh woe... I guess I may edit both claims out....

I suppose I could ask on Pprune....

Whaaat!

In truth this is all about nothing. PAN is, and always has been mainly about taking extracts of news from around the world [they call them press releases and news reports] and putting them together in one place. In some instances there is editing like when FLIR systems and Wescam both say their camera is the best in the World [that's the customers call] and some explanatory text .... interpreting media speak .... like adding information that The Met had not ordered their EC145s yet - contrary to what The Job article was suggesting ... [and I still believe they havn't]

So ... if you don't like the style don't read it ... but please don't expect me to bleed for you... those days were left behind on the streets of Kings Cross some 39 years ago......

Sincerest apologies EjectEject, the information in your last post was correct. It seems my source was a little behind the curve.

:O :O

Interesting situation, as its the only aircraft that has had the upgraded transmission removed for chips.

Once again, my apologies for my last post.

Here's a question ....
 

... getting back on track, what does everyone think might happen if all the rumours / scaremongering about MDHI came true and they actually went "bust" - which I sincerely hope they do not - ( it would be great to hear some reassurances from them ) but what might happen with the spares situation ?

As I see it the parts suppliers, e.g. Kawasaki and no doubt others, are probably already asking for payment for parts up front.

Surely these companies will want to continue to sell their parts and make a profit and there is obviously a market for them !

Could a situation develop where parts are supplied more directly, instead of via MDHI and then onto PAS ( or whoever is the local maintenance company ) before reaching the "end user" -
MDHI would be out of the loop and the parts supplied directly to the local maintenance guys ?

If this happened would the parts actually become cheaper ? - The more companies in the supply chain the more will be added to final price ?

Thinking of Kawasaki gearboxes - the topic of the moment, as has been rightly pointed out, the failure of one ( or more ) of these is not MDHI's fault, and Kawasaki will be providing replacements ( at their cost if under warranty, not at MDHI's cost ), and this probably applies to a lot of the other bits and bobs.

This of course does not mean that all 902 users have no need for MDHI to continue in business - they are obviously the experts in the design / modifications / development etc etc, I was just wondering with regards to spare parts supply - "What if......?" -

Over to you :hmm:

Dare I?

Ahhh what the heck.

Clearly I am not 'in' but from my sources it was my understanding that as the design authority all parts have to pass through MDHI ... however .... it was also my understanding that a significant number [perhaps all] of parts do [or can do] already travel direct to the customer in a real World scenario.

As far as future spares goes - if the worst should happen - I would not expect the situation to change apreciably. I have been unable to identify any specific items that are made by MDHI at Mesa [that does not mean there are none]. On the face of it the modern MD plant is a pure assembly plant [with a major spares holding of Kaman produced parts].

So if I am correct [wait for the howls!] it would seem that as long as the design authority paperwork can be finalised there is no obvious danger to current operators of 'running out of spares' - after an initial hiatus the system could actually be better for those operators not expecting to call upon Warranty parts.

It might actually be a straight commercial deal unhindered by any debt issues.

A fascinating thread, and some worthy contributions from all participants.....

And now some obvious honesty.

1.Its a fantastic aircraft when it is online.

2. Like any aircraft...its as much use as an ashtray on a motorbike when its broke.


3. MD helicopters are woefully inadequate in spares back-up.


Who, in their right mind would buy one from this useless american company? Let alone buy another?

I agree with Volrider. Its the Rover of the Helicopter world.

Let it R.I.P

:\

"Who, in their right mind would buy one from this useless american company? Let alone buy another?"

Cambridgeshire Police - Apparently

:\

Now who in their right mind, persuaded Cambs to buy a 902 in this climate???????

Unless of course, it was the bean counters again.


Some forces never, ever learn do they. They have a golden opportunity to watch everything going on around them, right down to their immediate neighbours (with different a/c) and they think to themselves:

"we know better"

Well you lot over there in the flatlands......hope you've got your reasons in writing ready for the C.C...you're going to need them:eek:

TC - I refer the Honorable Member to the comments made on 28th March - a result of your earlier opinions on why some forces make decisions that appear nonsensical to the community at large.

I wonder if the remaining bean-counters at Cambs are watching this thread??

PAnews:

Lets igonre MD specifically for a minute.

If a company's assets are far lower in value than the liabilities, nothing can improve significantly until that situation is rectified. In America, we have a bankruptcy code which in essence gives unsecured creditors very little power. So if you believe a company has assets that have value, by running the company through a bankruptcy, you can peel out those assets either through a reorganization or through a 363 sale. Once those assets are unencumbered by the previous liens, those assets can be utilized for the benefit of the new owner. Now remeber an asset includes not only physical assets but contracts and rights of which you can chose which ones to keep and which ones to disavow. Now the good news is that those assets which are valuable will be picked up, but the bad news may be that those which are deemed not that valuable would be left.

So, one could argue that the "worst" is the only way and the quickest way that a situation such as MD can be resolved.

Having had the pleasure of riding round in a 902 for the last 4 years I can say that has been enjoyable. Yes like all A/C it has needed spares but we have still clocked up nearly 4900 hours. Our engineers keep ontop of the machine and think ahead so we do not have too many periods of down time.
Having been flying for over 30 years spares for all makes of A/C have from time to time caused downtime. But I would never call the 902 a hanger queen. The 135 has had problem even recently with water in the blades so what the problem is sorted and we all keep on flying.

Whats the UK police 902 reliability record at, then?
The 902 User Gp should provide that.

For the record, the EC135 stats from 15 forces show:
worst: 89%
best:98%
This includes unscheduled downtime.

If the last hour is anything to go by, we have 100% :ok:

There is a recent police task where not one explorer in the North was on line and they had to bring in a 135 from the other side of the country.

South Yorks were off line waiting a part for nearly five weeks, no other reason.

Everyone gets defensive, but the reality is that the Explorer does not have the support, takes at least twice as long for servicing, is an operational risk - and is the worst possible operating environment for the rear police observer.

Other than that, it's fine.

Ahhh Statistics
 

We all know what they say about statistics ... here's another one :

( Depending on the day of the week and the Police force in question )
Approximately / rough average 25% of EVERY day, AT LEAST SEVEN Police forces in the Central UK region - who are all EC135 operators are UNAVAILABLE and rely on support from a 902 user that is MORE OFTEN THAN NOT available to assist :ok:

http://www.essex.police.uk/memorial/images/mann3.jpg
Chief Inspector Manning pictured (2nd from right)
while working with the pioneering police helicopter unit.

Apparently the lattice work used to really cut into your knees. :)