"The MD900 is a much better aircraft than the EC135 in all respects. Sadly customers are being discouraged by the spares situation."

Yawn, what have the romans ever done for us?? (watch Life of Brian for full explanation) All respects means ALL respects, so the spares situation is pretty important to a unit like ours with only one helicopter. 135 operators think that their heli is better than the MD900 series, so what you mean is: 'In my opinion' the 900 is better........

This argument has been done over and over, again and again. I like Eurocopter products with over 4000hrs on Gazelle/Puma/350/355/135. I have sampled the american products available and find them just as capable, but not as simple in design and operation. We generally get spares quite quickly, with the odd glitch. We got a MRGB in 2 days, and it wasn't cracked.........

'FINALLY!! Someone else agrees with me.'

Believe me Notar fan you never were alone...


But deciding that one lone journo was consistently saying nasty, unpalatable, things [that he thinks were regularly close to the truth] did not alter the situation did it?

Perhaps you should change tack and now claim that the whole situation was actually created by my news reports! I stopped parts deliveries, I emptied the bank I told the KLPD to cancel .... I made Eurocopter what they are ...... I can destroy aircraft companies .....

Now that degree of power would be SENSATIONAL!

If it were true.

Meanwhile I will report what I see. It is for you to accept or reject...

You do not believe everything you read in your daily paper do you? Surely helicopters are not bought on the strength of a Flight International test report or a free offer on a breakfast cereal packet .... are they?

Well may be they are.

PANews, I read PA News regularly and I do not recall seeing anything good about the MD900. Please put me right. I also recall seeing many adverts for McAlpine Helicopters which I believe to be 49% owned by Eurocopter. Please put me right on this as well.

Journo rule #1 "Never let the truth get in the way of a good story". I do not dispute any of the facts of this story but as soon as some journo or politician starts spewing out statistics, I know (as a former student of statistics) that they are only used to support an agenda.

As a journo, does it hurt when you use the words "facts" and "accuracy" in the same paragraph?

BTW, helicopters are often purchased by people who believe what they read / see/ hear in papers / tv / pprune / cereal packets.

Nothing personal my friend, but I don't like journos.

I don't like jounos either, but they are a fact of life, but unlike many diseases there are no known cures so we have to live with this curse.

Back to the thread:- I also find the MD900 concept very good and a superb logical approach to helicopter flight operations in all respects except that the range is pretty poor.
I just hope that MD can get the funding to put it's self back up where it belongs amongst the top boys.

Having translated the article announcing the cancellation of the Dutch police order for Explorerers, I remember that while the delay in certification allowed the Dutch authorities to cancel without having to pay a cancellation fee, and indeed to demand a non-performance fine off MD Helicopters, the main reason stated as to why they didn't want to wait any longer was that on a visit to the MD factory, they'd observed work had all but halted, casting severe doubts on MD's ability to deliver the balance of the order (the other 7 ships) and most certainly on future support of the fleet. The impression I got from the article was that they would have waited a little longer for the certification if the future of MD had not appeared so insecure.

Buitenzorg > yes, and particularly as MD is owned by a Dutch company. But MD _did_ sign a contract committing themselves to a greater MTOW than turned out to be feasible, even with a boom extension. If they ran out of money, then why would the bank (or funding source) forsake them if they had an order for 8 in the bag which could see them back on the road to recovery? It points to the MTOW being impossible to achieve

Where now for MD? Obvious severe financial pressure, and the only likely buyers of the company will be interested in the 500E/530F line for the Little Bird contract. Note the NOTARs though, sales oif which have not exactly been spectacular, with none of the 520N, 600N or Explorer lines yet delivering 100 airframes to customers. Put that alongside their competitors sales figures and you have a company in serious decline.

So, it's no surprise that there are stories like
- Sussex Police (UK) down for 5 weeks (14 months back - 2nd Dec 03 to 6th Jan 04) awaiting spares (not the Tactical Radio thing)
- Suffolk County PD (New York State, US) - grounded both aircraft late 2004 due to spares difficulties, and County have approved money to buy something different.
- a US EMS program have paid $1M+ deposit and aircraft stuck on the line - they fear they will never see their money or aircraft. Same program has another Explorer leased from Japan in mothballs due to lack of spares
- In Nov-04. Kaman announced a $21M write-off of investments in contracts with MD
- the MD Sales/Marketing Director (one time Air Hanson ops department) now on "garden leave"

The everyday situation now is spares availability. This seems to have been caused by financial difficulties, which in turn must have had something to do with lack of sales. For products of roughly similar cost (comparing the EC135 which I believe is slightly cheaper, and the 109E at slightly more), the implication has got to be that the product is less sale-able than its competitors.

Note, I am not saying it is less ABLE, just less SALE-ABLE. Is it possible for the NOTAR products of MD to exit this spiral?

MD600 Driver, what's your take on this?

NOTAR Fan, have you changed your defiinition of "fan" from supporter (like soccer) to air-pump yet, or were you always the latter?

What Limits:

Let's see, so far we have comments like:

Poor logistics.
Cancelling customers.
MD of MD on gardening leave?
Poor endurance.
No future proof weight increases.
Cracked MGB's
Poor heading hold out of wind.
Poor crew ergonomics.
Can only fly 1 x patient.

All the above taken from previous posts every time someone talks about MD900's.

I suspect your casual comment: better in ALL respects...just flew out of the window:yuk:

Ask yourself this question:

If you knew then, what you know now, would you go out and buy another 902?
{Cambridge beign the exception:eek: :eek: :eek: ]
QED

I guess I am tiring of this already...

OK What Limits...

Thanks for reading PA News regularly you are not alone. And I guess your failure to see anything good within its pages about the MD900 is not because it does not exist, more that it is pretty well overwhelmed. Perhaps you can recall when there was good news about MD and the Explorer? I cannot say I can since the KLPD and Cambridge orders. Its sad but lets not let the truth get in the way of a good barney!

And I guess this is what its all about. Colin Whicher [where is he these days?] once said to me that no one else [in the journo industry] is interested in what I wrote and in particular what I wrote about the Explorer.

So five years on.... whats changed? Now everyone is writing about it... perhaps the real journos have been asleep .... along with a few others I guess. If what I wrote was crap why are we here now talking about the danger of the demise of MD and excusing the problem by blaming it on a passing journo?

Bit late waking up now!

You may recall seeing many adverts for McAlpine Helicopters but do you remember the ones for MD? PAS? PWC? FSI? BMS? An advert is an advert and provides NO special favours. I guess that is why you will not find an MD, PWC or Bell advert now!

And I think you are VERY WRONG in your memory again about your percentages on having Macs owned 49% by Eurocopter. It is a much lower figure. Which makes the earlier assertion that 'Eurocopter' advertise with PAN absolute rubbish. Macs used to advertise in PAN. FSI used to advertise in PAN. Things move on.

Journo rule #1 "Never let the truth get in the way of a good story".

In which case its down to you to point out the errors. I was brought up as a cop over 30 years so equally 'hated' journos, now I changed hats through choice the old habit of 'telling the truth, the whole truth....' is pretty difficult to duck. But there are precious few facts flowing from you. Insinuation is not truth.

I can recall the absolute furore from the 'Explorer camp' when I reported the fact that some EC135 units had released figures that they were experiencing availability of 98%. Not my numbers. They were provided by the units concerned. That was a time when rumour suggested that some Explorer units were returning 74%. Around the time when Sussex were twiddling their thumbs for a month. But although I asked no-one replied to a direct question what the figure was.

Again around the same time there was a round robin E-mail making all sorts of accusations about my reporting of the unpalatable - that only died away when I suggested I had perhaps better report the public domain story about Dorset going cap-in-hand to ask the Police Authority for another £120,000 to tide them over after a shortfall in the unexpected spares fund....

At times it seems that there have been just too many bad stories to use. So [aside from on the Dorset Police web site] that stayed off the public agenda.

MD returned a 1% market share last year, so what you are saying is that they are far more important than Eurocopter - the choice of a significant WORLD majority - and that I should report only the bad bits about Eurocopter and the good bits about MD? Oh and maybe a bit about fixed wing to keep me busy?

EC has broad shoulders. There have been digs about their products, but not a murmur.

So PAN should shrink from 28 pages to just 5?

You should be a journo! Have you no shame!

'BTW, helicopters are often purchased by people who believe what they read / see/ hear in papers / tv / pprune / cereal packets.'

More fool them then. Perhaps they should spend more time in their own product research and believe less in the saleman. You know what they say about Estate Agents, car salesmen and the like.... We have choices, and if we make an errors we ought to have broad enough shoulders to carry them.


Only an opinion of course!

Phew!

PS. While I was writing this I had a very supportive phone call .... it seems not everyone in Explorer land has their head in the sand..... whats out is out ......... and about time too?

PPS. The South Yorkshire Explorer was not flying last night. That makes a month. Is that good for public safety? Enough is enough.

PANews: well said, that man.
The proof of the pudding's in the reading.

The 902 is a very capable aircraft - of that there is no doubt.

The problem is that there are MORE capable aircraft out there with the additional back-up to support their product.

Which is more than anyone can say about the MD902.

Watch what happens when current police a/c are due for replacement, ask ANY police operator what products they are looking at to replace their existing one?

It must be very difficult fighting a constant rear guard action with your bosses when you know you've bought a bentley but can't drive it because there are no spare parts?????

Wake up and smell the coffee what limits.

What Limits and Head Turner:

Just because you dont like journos would appreciate you not putting us all in the same catergory.

For your info I have spent the last six years publishing my civil helo trade mag and have ALWAYS given a fair and accurate report in each of the stories we have published. Classic example we did a feature on the piss poor customer service that Turbomeca had, AND they were an advertiser in the magazine.

I have, and always will, promote the positive sides of this industry as it needs all the positive PR it can get, BUT being classed in the same catergory as your local Daily Mirror journo is something I do take offence to.

Just my two cents worth.

Ned

Further to my last post, we are suffering servicability problems at the moment with our 2600hr EC135. This includes a MRGB and an engine, plus various autopilot and camera problems in the last 2 months. This happens in the real world and I am sure MD products are just as reliable as ours. The difference is that we got a gearbox in 2 days, an engine the same day, actuator in one day. We are grumbling because a cockpit display is taking a whole 3 days due to a software fill being required!! Spares and maintainance back-up cannot be brushed over by stating your product is better. Imagine a car manufacturer doing that, Clarkson would screen a one hour special!! The coffee smells lovely here.......

'Never let the truth get in the way of a good story' as quoted above and before.
Therefore the fact that one journo is different to another should be discarded to fuel the flames of discussion.
So what's the truth in the rumour that the Brazillian airplane maker is looking at MD.

MD902 logistics
 

Little seen on this subject is entirely objective but even the most enthusiastic MD902 operators in the UK have to admit that there have been major issues on the supply of key spares including main rotor gearboxes.

The current MDHI company is nothing to do with Boeing or MD and has little to fall-back on when commercial and technical issues arise. I suspect that had MD (the real MD) or latterly Boeing retained control of the programme, things might have been different and the logistic and developmental issues of the MD902 may have been squared away...but this is not what has happened. One wonders why Boeing sold the company if the risk perception of the product was anything other than as a low reward/high cost civil helicopter programme.

The Dutch Police contract is difficult for both the Dutch Police and for MDHI. The police made a call and as it turns out made the wrong one (we all do that from time to time)...on the basis that the MD902 has not been able to deliver what was promised. MDHI made valiant technical and commercial efforts to deliver but ultimately the MD902 could not deliver. I might take a view that nothing was going to deliver what was demanded of the MD902 with the Dutch role equipment in the sub 3000 kg category. Gravity does not change and the laws of aerodynamics have been soundly tested.

So I would say, my opinion of course, Bravo for trying MDHI, bad-luck Dutch Police - do not always believe what salesman promise even if that is what you want to hear, and good news for UK based MD902 operators who may see some improvement in support now attention at MDHI is on other things.

Incidently, if you think objectivity is short in this, I also take the view that threatening to sue, or indeed sueing your potential customers when you loose a competition is not the wisest thing to do. If the customer eventually needs you, in these circumstances it is difficult for them to say 'hi' a year or two later on. Mnaufacturers need to learn that customers are also in the market for the long-haul and have memories of how they are treated.

Just some thoughts.

Valid point, but did not most of the lack of back up start with boeing who did no development of what is basically not a bad product. The machine has improved dramatically over the last few years. The Dutch Police contract has probably caused more problems than it has solved with the diversion of resources that could have been used else where, just my opinion of course, but as said earlier, the amount of equipement they expected to hang off the machine was incredable. The ideal aircraft was something in the 365B3/76C+ class if not a 332

MD Explorers - Is there a downtime problem?
 

The MD902 competes well in the ALE/EMS market and for good reason. But uncertainty over the future of MDHI must surely be the biggest cause of poor sales over the last few years and the cancellation of eight 902’s by KLPD earlier this month can only add to their cash flow problems.

Money alone may not save them and in the absence of any success in the ARH/LUH competitions, the acquisition of MDHI by a well respected and well funded helicopter manufacturer may be the only viable future.

Just a thought…..

Potentially the biggest worry faced by MDHI is the uncertainty of the Boeing money.

Although lauded as the answer to most of their problems the little I have noted on the military programme [Little Bird] suggests at least the danger of Boeing ceasing payment/support as soon as the result of the competition being announced if that result finds against the Little Bird. I know that these programme decisions keep slipping but the last decision date I am aware of was June 2005, just around the corner. Two months.

In all cases I suspect that wherever the final financial solution comes from [Little Bird/China/Brazil etc] it will be a year before any end user relief is visible [in terms of spares freely available]. And then of course there is the little matter of catching up with all that difficult to fund product development.

We are three months on from each of the rescue plans that failed to appear on cue ... the Sikorsky, Bell, China options .... and time is pressing. Kaman needs to be sweetened and parts production [again a year] restarted to get Explorer back on line.

Even the 'acquisition of MDHI by a well respected and well funded helicopter manufacturer' is likely to face a year in the relative doldrums. In a way it is potentially fortunate that delivery lead times in the industry are of a similar order [12 months+].

In the meanwhile operators are having to make decisions that may lead to a section of the current fleet [under 100] being parted out to support the rest. Recent accidents may be having a small positive effect on supply and demand on the type. Such pressures will inevitable lead to some operators failing to even consider operating the Explorer in future if only on the grounds that an existing fleet may not be able to grow using a common type.

It wont matter if a company sinks a trillon dollars into MD, as long as the same management is there it wont make any difference.

I heard throught the grapevine that one of the major reasons the Sikorsky deal fell over was because the owner in Holland wanted Schaken there no matter what and that was part of the deal. Right or wrong thats the rumour.

PR

IF the company goes to the wall, and there are no takers..what happens to the existing users?
Say another year for the company to fold, a year after that for operators to grind to a halt without spares.
Where will the Home Office find the money to bail them out. Could a worthy competitor cope with demand for trickle feeding 11 operators (in the Uk alone) with replacement aircraft :eek:

Very brave decision by Cambridge, to buy a new 902 NOW:confused:

Maybe Cambs know something that the rest of us don't - if not then it was a 'brave' decision

The spares situation on the whole is improving, AOG spares have been arriving, granted not in a 24/48 hour period but they have been arriving none the less, with regard to MRGBs, the boxes are being upgraded by Kawazaki, not minor mods, quite major ones, and the boxes are doing a lot better with life limits going up towards what they should be.

South yorks may not have flown for the last month but you may find that is due to it having been on annual and periodic inspections, checks that will keep it down for at least 3 weeks. They are being provided with spares as soon as reasonably possible by both MDHI and PAS.

The uncertain future is not good but constant comment by people who have their own adgenda doesn't help those of us who rely on the 902 to pay the bills.

3 weeks for an annual?? Good God Why???? As a 135 pilot, I have no desire to put 902s out of business and affect liveleyhoods. We are not rivals, we are in the same job against the same criminals. However, if something isn't working properly, you cannot just ignore it because it might upset people. You are paying a LOT of good TAXPAYERS money for these aircraft. I don't want you all to have a 135, I want the 902s to work properly with the backup we all deserve. PLEASE don't take the comments personally, as fellow pilots we want you to be happy as well.....

concur jayteeto.

When the police buy their aircraft, I often wonder how many of them seek 'independent' advice on which a/c to put on the short list. Ideally that would be the CP's remit if he was directly employed.
I suspect, many forces went into this business being driven by bean counters who havent got the faintest idea what they are up against.
I can think of atleast 3 forces who have purchased helicopters because the UEO thinks he knows best or has a personal prejudice against either a company or a helo, without an iota of evidence to back his views up.
They're paying dearly for it now with downtime alone, never mind what the future holds....

Some people never learn from others do they..

I suppose in the perfect world, the decision would be made for them with the HO and PITO preparing a well researched short list to choose from...sorry...that's too logical, I know.:ooh:

My thoughts exactly re 3 weeks for annual!!! 135 users are now experiencing 5 days for 400, 7-9 for 800. With the prospect of 50 and 100 hr inspections to be removed, the 135 remains available more and more.

Questions are and should be asked as to why the 902 spends more time off-line due to lack of parts, when your using TAXPAYERS money. The CC, more importantly the bobby on the ground in any Police force expects their aircraft available to provide air support. When they see theirs is not, lots of times, for long periods, questions start to get asked as to why. AND - can't we have one of those types our neighbours are using, they are operaional most of the time. That is begining to happen.

I know of one force that wants to get rid of their 902, not because its not a capable aircraft - because it is, but because its just not available for the force to use. And thats not due to role equipment faults, as we all have those, but due to the aicraft spares situation.

'I suppose in the perfect world, the decision would be made for them with the HO and PITO preparing a well researched short list to choose from..'

The HO and PITO did try that logical step with a document that listed all the salient numbers ... it was not the first of its kind, such a deal started in the 1980s, but there were complaints over the new document that covered all the new generation helicopters [fixed wing were dealt with in a separate document]. It was not Conkin & Dekker but it went a way towards meeting a need.

Unfortunately, although given numerous extensions, one company was unable to submit the flight test numbers in time and complained... as a result the HO walked away from the idea ... although an initial version appeared it showed big gaps for that one type [presumably for filling in later when the numbers were available!] and they quickly dropped the document so as not to offend! They never tried again.

So, with the lack of information, who is offended now?

Gearboxes
I am unsure of the exact situation currently but I believe that because of the spares supply situation gearboxes were being overhauled in Mesa rather that being sent to Kawasaki or offered as a straight swop. Part of the reason for that is/was the credit situation between MD and Kawasaki. The result is that a major gearbox fault can lead to the operator waiting for the gearbox to travel to Mesa, be rebuilt and returned. It all takes time. Maybe someone can update that information.

There are Explorer's out there with original and long time in service gearboxes but I am aware that at least one operator likens the situation to a cat on a hot tin roof....

Will it or won't it ....

This is just the same old crap we used to put up with when I had the misfortune to operate MD 500D's. I suspect that for the majority of you operating the 900/902 it is your first experience with this manufacturer.

The current problems seem to be even worse, but the basic problems have existed throughout the history of the company whether it was MDHS, Boeing or MD Helicopters. Terrible product support and parts availability. Problems that go on for decades and through a vast number of modifications, redesigns and poorly thought out fixes. A massive collections of AD's. And yes, annuals that take longer than any other helicopter that has ever been built!

I wouldn't operate any of their products if you gave it to me for free. The happiest day in my career was the day the last of the little POS flew away to become someone elses nightmare.

PANews, I suggest that if you are "unsure of the exact situation" that you keep your mouth shut!! Once again you post bogus, misleading information. Main Rotor Gearboxes were never overhauled in Mesa, and, were always offered as an exchange item. All gearboxes are overhauled at Kawasaki.

With the highest density of 900s in your area, there is absolutely no reason for you to be posting vindictive, incorrect rubbish. Go talk to the operators, before you post such c**p.

JTT & others - how right that the taxpayers & ground troops should be questioning the availability of their local machine. As a 135 jockey, I 'm also keen to see the 902 cut it with the rest in the same role - in terms of capability, my 902 investigations came out fairly even (good view, clever IIDS, noise sig etc) but I'm pleased we're now a lot more "S" than we might have been!

More importantly, TC hits the nail on the head (not for the first time) re "independant advice" when procuring Police aircraft. The "system" means that individual forces & UEOs often have neither the knowledge, ability, humility or remit to accept advice, or collaborate with each other, when buying aircraft. The framework allows companies to sell what they want to sell, not what the customer wants. Get it all under one (HO & PITO) roof & I reckon you'd get a better product at the end of the day. . . I know how I'd like to improve my 135 payload by 100+ kgs, tomorrow!

P.S. Again TC, concur with your "personal prejudice" comment. It'll be interesting to see what happens to a recent decision (as yet un-delivered & already delayed) now that a "person" has moved on!;)

Thank you for your precise [insider] clarification of the situation relating to the long gestation period surrounding gearbox changes on MD Explorer's Notar Fan.

I think you answered the question quite clearly with your post.

As to whether asking a question [I never stated at any point that I knew the whole answer] is attempting to mislead is debatable.

I have pointed out before that asking a question [yes, even here] is never the same as going into print with misleading information in the wider world.

As the world of MD [the old guard and the new] continues to be like some secret society at times it is often difficult to get any answer never mind the correct one. Unfortunately in the main the high density of MD Explorer operators in these parts tend to hold similar views and run a tight ship that ensures that only rumours leak out.

The Yorkshire Post article will, I suspect get everyone involved in aircraft selection checking their spec notes, 'hunkering down' and looking over theirs shoulders........ for a while anyway.

Going back a few steps it seems that it OK for anyone but a journo to pose an apparent scenario and ask a question on Pprune.... But I should not be surprised, that is the reaction I have received to most questions posed towards Mesa in the last 8 years. For the record, my statement was based on information circulating [but never published at the time] at the time Sussex were stuck on the ground for a month 'awaiting a gearbox' ...... Perhaps it was erronous, if so better out than in perhaps?

Perhaps in the world inhabited by some the lengthy Sussex grounding was also a figment of someones imagination.

Still, thats another one clarified! I think.

Guess What - West Mids 902 is off line - Again. MRG required I believe.

Down time - some facts
 

I have been following this thread with a great deal of interest as it's rather close to home...... I have resisted posting anything so far but I think the record should be set straight about a few misunderstandings:

1. FACT - The South Yorkshire a/c has been on the deck due to component failure and the subsequent problem in obtaining a replacement part.

2. FACT - It has nothing to do with an annual or other scheduled engineering.

I personally do not have 'prejudices' against any type as the main objective is to provide a service to the public. If a balloon did the job as well then I would operate a balloon.

As for the Yorkshire Post article.. a reporter just doing his job and nothing to do with a smear campaign or whisperings in his ear.

I guess each operator has their own experience when it comes to parts availability. Mine has been.......frustrating.

I remain an optimist and do see some positives although I am realistic enough to realise there will be further bumps in the road ahead but such is life.

But for now....availability is but a few spanner turns away so must dash.

MD 902 support
 

Once a helicopter ( or car - think about it) becomes stigmatised for whatever reasons, the value of pre-owned examples will suffer. The UK reader only has to think of the one remaining UK owned (at the moment) car manufacturer. However you polish the car - sorry - helicopter - the stigma will stick. The car - sorry helicopter - might be the greatest thing since toast and have bags of potential but its manufacturer's suppliers are simply no longer interested...they have moved on.

So you own an MD902 and would rather not. What is the best exit strategy? Well...I guess you extoll the virtues of the bird, tell the customer the wonderful job it does for you but also add that your role has changed....you need a bigger aircraft to embrace 'homeland' security or somesuch and just hope that your politicians will agree.

If it all goes the way it loos as though it will go, you will see a small specialised group of companies or even one company doing what Erikson did to the Skycrane...and what a job that was!

Its really difficult to sell something where everyone knows there is an issue but cannot admit it as doing so will dig an even bigger hole to the one they are already standing in. I've seen it in the corporate market where individuals stand to loose their own money if they pass ships on too quickly. So if you operate an MD902 with the police, take comfort that a least you personally do not bear the ownership costs - unless you are a community charge payer.

Another point you might dwell on. The MD902 was developed by a risk-sharing group of 20 or so in the Blue-Team. So what do they think (those who are left)? Kaman's position is fairly easy to read from PLC-type reports but what about Kawasaki who make the gearbox....and all the other suppliers.

So....get writing your new business case for that bigger helicopter with new capability and get those celebrated brokers out there to earn their not inconsiderable commission and sell the beastie before you get caught in the rush.:ok:

PS...Someone earlier said "smell the coffee...." That light at the end of the tunnel...its a train.....

It should be no surprise to anyone in the industry that MD lacks the liquidity to support its products. It is common knowledge that the subcontractors which make the parts to support MD products are not being paid on a timely basis. Further, the basis for this statement is not only supported by the marketplace, but have been supported by public filings with the United States Securities and Exchange Commission by Kaman. These are public documents.

With respect to 500's, there are a few parts which are difficult to attain (heads, verticals, sheet metal) but the balance of parts can be found in the marketplace as there are over 3,000 still flying and over 5,000 manufactured and a volume of aircraft necessary to support PMA. With respect to 520's, 600's and 900's, it is clearly much worse as there is not the volume of aircraft to pick parts from, nor is there necessary volume to justify PMA. Although some people, like Cyclic Hotline, beleive 500's are junk, I personally like them.

New parts in sustainable volumes will not be available from MD to the civilian market until MD is recapitalized which will in my opinion take a bankruptcy. Absent unsecured creditors forcing an involuntary bankruptcy (costs about $1,000), it is unlikely MD will file on its own.

All operators of MD products should accept the situation and plan accordingly.

How about the pilot's eye view then? I fly both 902 and 135 regularly and therefore feel capable of an objective view.

1) There is no doubt in my mind that the 135 cockpit was designed by a designer when the pilot was off sick - just look at the number of knobs and switches, and more importantly, their locations (eg the altimeter setting knob).

2) In controlled training conditions, I have yet to see anyone lose less than 10% Nr when counted down into a practice double engine failure. I would suggest that the situation would be impossible to recover from were it to happen for real. By the way, the landing light goes out as well, and where's the switch to get it back (the shed bus switch)? You guessed it - right at the back of the overhead switch panel.

3) Management of the EFIS and autopilot is done exclusively from the centre console and not from within the pilot's natural field of view - not very sensible for a single pilot IFR aircraft.

4) The 902 cabin is bigger, but overall length is less.

5) You can't argue about the 902's high tail and lack of rotating components at the back - a huge plus for HEMS ops.

You will be gathering that I'm not a huge fan of the 135, and you'd be right, though it has to be said that, when set up to best effect, the toys are more advanced than the 902. However, from a pilot's point of view the 902 is so much more intuitive and simpler to manage - 19 "silver switches" compared to 33 in the 135 (trust me - I've just counted them), and all AP and EFIS controls on the instrument panel.

Having said all that, there are weaknesses. The 135 is much happier hovering out of wind, and if it all went pear shaped down the back end, I think I'd probably find it easier to get a 135 back on the ground in one piece. Also, the T2 "Training mode" is sensational. Finally, and significantly for a man of my advanced years, when the 902 design team were doing "getting in and out of the front", the pilot was on a day off, and the result is catatrophic.

At the end of the day the industry needs competition, and if MD could find a way to put its troubles behind it, ECD would have that in spades.

Its good to see some positive press for the 902, I would love the AP switches to be in a better position on the 135. I think the crux of the argument is still: Better to have 33 switches I can use, than 19 in the hangar. What about a merger between EC and MD to get the best of both worlds?????;)

jayteeto

That would just confine the 902 to the dustbin as they would kill it off rather than see it compete with one of their product lines. Let's just hope that Colin and his team can still keep selling them whilst somebody stumps up the dosh to keep it solvent.

There was a thread running a month or more ago in which Nick Lappos (I believe) very capably explained the whys & wherefores of designing twin engined helicopter rotor systems that are maximised for "powered" operations, rather than single engined machines that tend to make more compromises towards power-off flight. I would not chose a twin engined helicopter based on its double engine failure characteristics, nor do I fly with thought of such infrequent failures on a daily basis - yes, of course the mind becomes more focussed in the event of any emergency or system failure.

I would concur, however, with the switch comments - how, especially, it was decided to put the Cat A switch so far from single pilot reach, I cannot fathom. (For those unaware, this requires hand off collective at 55kts / 100' or so, on take off or approach, unlock seat harness, reach forward, make switch, re-sit & continue). Why one of the unused buttons, on either collective or cyclic, can't be used is anyone's guess!

There may be plenty of things to improve on the 135, but as JTT says, better be able to use working bits, in a fiddly fashion, than just fiddle with a few bust bits in a hangar queen!

MD.....hmmmmm
 

I've tried to be very balanced about my comments on MD and I could not agree more with those who say we need the competition out there. The MD 902 forced ECto get the EC135T2 to where it is now in the UK, and I think the Uk users should be pleased about that.

MD sold off their Civil helicopter programme and then joined Boeing. Why? There is not much money in developing and selling new helicopters in today's litigous and highly certified and controlled World. Ask Eurocopter for a special MOD these days and see what reply you get there.

The money is not in making civil helicopters and it remains a mystery (I won't even start to guess where the money comes from) why individuals choose to buy helicopter companies. Frankly they must be mad or keen to make a tax-loss. How does it go? Want a small fortune! Start with a big one and buy a helicopter (company)!

Yup we need competition and it would be really nice if some rich gent dipped into his pocket to pay MD to be some pace-setting hare! Well, maybe someone will want to buy MD....look where the money comes from in Football these days.

'33 switches in the air versus 19 in the hangar' - good phrase and just about sums it up!

hmmmmm

Have to agree with previous comments on the Cat A switch. I find it difficult to believe that it could not have been made as an 'arming' switch, allowing the Cat A mode to be activated by IAS data.

Other than that (and the shed bus switch) though, it's the dogs danglies!

TeeS

EjectEject - any update on that replacement Gearbox issue message ???

... any other updates on spares issues, Company issues ???
:rolleyes:

Rumour has it that when undertaking major work on one of the Explorers [possibly the West Midlands airframe] at PAS in Staverton trouble was found with one of the new design securing pins. It 'just fell apart' .... [ouch!].

These are the redesigned 'fit and forget' pins not those that resulted in a short term general grounding last year.

That was a week ago and so far nothing has leaked out of the 'tight ship' to confirm the story.......

.... or otherwise.

Unless you know better?