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Austrian cable car accident - Update
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I do not want to sound like an ass but who flies accross active ski lifts with an underslung load ... safety ... airmanship ... eischhhh :mad:
A helicopter carrying material to a mountain-top construction site shed its load over the ski-lift, knocking one car off its wires and causing others to swing violently and throw out their passengers, police said. |
My thoughts exactly Guns.....I would not even fly across a powerline with a slingload for fear of having an electrical bill I would never pay off.:uhoh:
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Howzit mate ... man I hate discussing another man's mistakes but surely he should have thought what he was doing ... I mean or am I just being : " Easy to say in hind -sight" ... ?
I was not the most cosher pilot in my days but at least when I had an underslung I have never passed over even an animal... just logic I mean .. or what biys and gal's ? |
That's really scary . . . just two weeks ago I was in Austria and - you've guessed it - taking a ride in a cable car.
Not exactly the same spot, but still a bit freaky and definitely too close for comfort ! |
Accurate...
I have done lots of underslung work, including precision vertical reference live power line maintenance. And even in controlled conditions, it was hard sometimes just placing the blokes onto the lines from 60 feet up.
Dropping a load from 1000 feet up and it accidentally hitting a cable car or cable must have been extremely well timed. Granted, airmanship and bloody unlucky, for both the people that died and the pilot...:ugh: Condolences to the families. |
cable car incident
Well, everyone seems to point towards poor airmanship which ordinarily casts a shadow on the pilot. I think, and don't get me wrong, company management has everything to do with it. And perhaps a good hearted customer stood watch with a stop watch in his hand to mount the extra pressure on the crew - sheer speculation.
Regardless of these rumours that keep ushering in I say the company is marked like a shark in a swimming pool. Terrible thing to happen. And for the families who lost loved ones one cannot even imagine. Another tragic day...Scary:sad: |
bad management?
It's a very competitive market and the direct way is still the cheapest. The company had several mishaps in the last years.
The timing for hitting the car is unbelievabe.... |
Aw come on, after 30+ years of external load work I have only had one inadvertant release of a load. I do not think it's poor airmanship to fly across powerlines or even a tram line with an external load. With out a look at the sling site it may not be practicle to get the load from the pick up point to the intended drop off site with out flying over the tram line.
JHR |
I heard it was one of the "Knaus Helicopter GmbH".
But don't know the type of machine. |
Conflicting reports AGAIN, News24.com states the following:
Tourists dead in Alps accident Vienna - At least nine people died and several others were injured on Monday when a helicopter accidentally dropped a massive concrete block on a cable-car in the Austrian Alps, police said. The victims were believed to be tourists, some of whom were knocked out of the cable-car when it was struck by the 750kg the APA news agency reported, citing the company that operates the cable-car. The company said the block fell from a height of 300m onto the cable-car. The block was being transported to be used in the construction of a telecommunications line. A large-scale rescue operation was under way at the scene near the vilage of Soelden, which lies near the city of Innsbruck, local rescue officials said. |
Well , someone has to sit at home in the quiet time and consider that decision no matter why it was made. I am glad I don't have to be him.
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A few more details....
Nine dead as concrete falls on cable car AT LEAST nine people, six of them children, died yesterday when a helicopter accidentally dropped a massive concrete block on to a cable car in the Austrian Alps. One gondola hurtled to the ground and passengers were thrown from nearby cable cars after the load struck. All of the dead appeared to be members of a German tour group, according to Edelbert Kohler, the head of police in Innsbruck. The accident occurred in the ski-resort town of Soelden, 25 miles south-west of Innsbruck and some 300 miles west of Vienna. The helicopter was hauling goods to the top of the cable-car lift for construction work when a huge chunk of concrete came loose and fell, Mr Kohler said. "It was just terrible," one female eyewitness told Austrian radio. "There were bodies broken like rag dolls and this awful moaning from people whose limbs were broken and twisted from the fall. "It was a terrible keening echoing through the mountain tops. It seemed there were some very young children lying there." Four people were injured in the accident, while three others in the cable cars escaped injury, said Jakob Falkner, an executive of the cable car company. But Red Cross officials claimed seven people were injured - five of them seriously. Local media reports said the concrete weighed about 1,500 pounds. Mr Kohler initially said it appeared that the chunk hit the cable, causing the gondolas to swing out of control, throwing the victims out. But Mr Falkner told Austrian state television that the concrete directly hit one of the cable cars - a version later confirmed by Mr Kohler. A dozen rescue helicopters hovered over the scene of the accident, while dozens of emergency workers rushed to the site on foot. The glacier skiing area around Soelden - some of it almost 10,000 feet high - is popular with summer tourists, who flock to its perennially snow-covered peaks. The accident happened shortly after 1pm local time, near the 11,000ft Schwarze Schneid mountain station - the goal for the helicopter's load. Police said the helicopter had permission to transport the massive concrete blocks, which were to be used as the foundations for a new mobile phone and radar tower, but that a criminal investigation is now under way to discover what went wrong. The cable car was taking the skiers between the Rettenbach and Tiefenbach glaciers when the concrete block fell from 900 feet above. "It must have come down with the force of a high- explosive bomb," said a police spokesman. Juergen Huffel, a tourist at the scene, said: "Yellow rescue helicopters swarmed in. There were loads of medical personnel on the ground within minutes. "They realised very quickly just what a disaster it had been. One of the cable cars that had crashed into another one fell from the cable to the ground shortly afterwards, but all the people who had been underneath were no longer in the way." Gottlieb Huetter, a police spokesman, said: "The people and cars fell about 15 metres. The injuries of some survivors were quite bad. People were flung out of the cars when they collided due to the vibration on the cables." The cars can hold up to eight passengers at a time and are glassed in. Mr Huetter added: "The passengers would not know what had hit them. It was like being bombed." Roy Knaus, the head of the Heli Alpin Knaus helicopter company, said he believed the pilot had had no idea that he had lost part of his load. Carl Ferrari-Brunnenfeld, a spokesman for the Austrian transport ministry, described the incident as a "tragic accident" and said it showed "how important it is that all safety procedures are strictly adhered to". He added that cargo helicopters do not need special permission to take to the air and that the company is responsible for securing the materials they are transporting. Very sorry for the victims/families and the pilot. |
Remember the incident several years ago where the Navy/Marine Corps A-6 cut a set of tram wires and killed some people in Italy?
Much to do about that one...I do not care to think how this one might work out. |
Well said JHR. Its easy to be the arm chair quarterback when we dont know the whole story.
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JHR & Auscan I agree.
A tragedy for all concerned. My condolences to the families of the deceased, and the injured and their families; my heartfelt sympathies to the pilot and his/her family. Skiing is regarded, at least by insurers, as a dangerous sport, but what odds of being on a cable car when the line gets hit with a block of concrete released from a thousand feet; as Recuperator intimated it is hardly believable. Even with the ballistic coefficient of a block of concrete the aircraft would not have even reached the line when the release occurred. |
Unbelievable! What a accident. Deep condolences to the families of the deceased. My assistance and feelings to the pilot.
Well said JHR, I do not think it's poor airmanship to fly across powerlines or even a tram line with an external load. The accident happened in 2800m in snow and ice, only helicopters are able to bring loads in this area. It's a wide wide area and the cable is nearly the sole obstacle. I had personally 2 unexpected load releases in the past and the world of slingloaders is full of this kind of incident. There are many ways to loss a load. The German Border Guard encountered 2 unexpected load releases with human external load (short haul) two weeks ago and the mechanism of opening the hook in this incidents is also nearly unbelievable. Only the redundancy saved the lives of the rescuers. At the moment it's unclear why the concrete kettle in Austria came off. But to hit a round about 2,5 inches steel cable and a 2,5m wide gondola from 800-1000ft is a feasibility only mathematicians or chair seater could calculate. It's absolutely common in Europe since 30 years to operate with sling loads above the heads (construction work) or in obstacle areas (towns, railway stations,...), there are thousends of cellular radio stations settled by helicopters in such areas as example, but may be this accident could change the minds of authorities, we have to evacuate the whole area before any chopper taking off and the helicopterbusiness will lost one of it's strongest parts. Anyway blame the company, blame the mechanics or blame the pilot if the release reason is clear. But it stays a nearly unbelievable and very sad accident. |
this bloody accident
Yes it is poor management because that freakin cable car should not have been in operation. And apart from that two pilots where in the cockpit - one high timer and one low timer - those are the facts. So in my opinion, the high timer is responsible for what the low timer did or not.
How much guts and imagination does it take for a freakin cable car company to suspend operations for at least the duration of flight operations? It is a safety matter. Apply the 5M model if you ever heard of this. It is always greed that prevails instead logical reasoning because the cable car company might loose a few hours on revenue...bollocks Loads come off hooks its a given and one is lucky if it does not hit anybody. It would have only hit a stupid metal cage if it weren't for the passengers in there...that's the tragedy and arrogance that comes with it. If the pilot(s) will be guilty then I say the cable car company is guilty as well. If this statement is too harsh then I apologize...but this had to be said.:mad: |
alouette,
my dear, let's us cool down, we are shocked by this tragedy. It's impssible to shut down all ground work in an helicopter flying area. What will you do in case of construction works? Is the feasibility of hitting the cable (seems to be clear that the kettle hit at first the cable, never heard of such a sad bullseye) greater than to chrash with the whole ship in a house or a car or... or.. on the ground in case of a technical malfunction? If we think so we have to evacuate the complete route + safety area of any helicopter or aircraft. It's often impossible not to overfly humans with slingloads. If we stop this operations because of this reasons we have to stop all street traffic, because we all know accidents with cars suddenly hitting houses or humans. Evacuate a complete safety strip around all streets! May be mechanics or the pilots have failed, there are humans. May be the cargo hook failed. Only metal! How many car drivers failing evering day? How many people have to die therefore every day? I know this area very good, i would never say it's difficult or risky on a alldays operation, hauling concrete, to operate here. If the kettle missed the cable 5m nobody would talk about. God, i wished the dammned kettle have gone a few seconds before and is resting now for the the next 1000 years in the glacier. And not to forget, salute to my austrian rescue friends, within 45 minutes 14 helicopters were on scene, supplied 8 heavy injured survivors and evacuated more than 100 persons sitting in the blocked cable gondolas by HEC within a short time. And evacuating a gondola isn't a game! |
I have been reading this thread and thought I would make a comment, as some of the responses are constructive and others are plan crap.
Earlier this evening Roy Knaus, the owner of the company, and I had been exchanging text messages. He is a friend and as you can appreciate is trying to consol a very distressed pilot, who for members info here, visits from time to time, so go a little easy, you never know who reads these forums. At this stage they still have no idea what happened and rather than jumping to conclusions Roy is leaving it in the hands of the investigators to work out exactly how and why this happened. Just my two cents worth. Ned |
Did the concrete block fall directly on top of the cable car or did it roll down the side of the mountain before hitting it?
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Hi All,
I had time to rethink what I said and will remain with my statement. I feel very sad for the pilot - maybe even the company. Yes it was a one in a million chance but if he did not fly over the cables for whatever reason the one - in a - million chance immediately dissapears (sorry I come from a safety background in aviation and can be a pain in the ar$e on the subject) :E Re loadswings in congested areas (not that this was). A very dear friend was killed a few years ago in Cape Town CBD when he offloaded a aircon unit on a office block. It was roughly 0500 AM on a Sunday morning - streets was cleared. The Mi-8 crashed on top of the building and burnt out there - imagine it rolled off and Cape Town traffic was below ... WHen I was last in SA (and in ops) slinging in a busy CBD would never be allowed. I did radio masts many moons ago in a Puma SA 330 and Alo III ... maybe about 100 hrs total so no tmuch experience but never had a accidental drop - thanks God for that but what was never even a question ... never ever over known populated areas. It was SOP's - so you just do not do it. Sincere condolences to the families. To the Pilot : Strength mate. |
Gunship old mate,
i'm not a special mathematician but i would bet the feasibility of hitting the 2,5 inches cable with a 750kg cup of concrete falling from 1000ft on flight speed, yes it was a direct hit, is lower than the feasibility of an engine failure or other technical problem. If we want to avoid such "one - in a - million chances" we have to stay in bed. Compare it with the AS 350 news chopper accident in the US. Pure luck that on that accident no other people were hurt or killed. Have the news operators now to evacuate the whole city before acting over it? I come from a safety background in aviation and can be a pain in the ar$e on the subject) Got a call from Austria, the hook seems to be mechanically in good condition, investigators looking now to an electical failure or as normally to the pilot. The load was lost from the hook, after the flight the hook was found opened.The pilot is 35 years old and with 850 flighthours and only 150h external loads not so much experienced. But that means nothing at the moment! Hauling concrete is a beginner job in the Alps. Because normally is concrete silent. The pilot was before the accident 4h on duty and before beginning single pilot operations 4 weeks ago normally checked out on external loads by an 11.000h pilot. The SA315B was flying round about 50kt. On a first statement the authority stated that Knaus have all necessary approvements and there is no indication at the moment of a management problem. |
I agree with Guns - it's just plain stupid to fly a sling-load over an area where people may be below. Some argue that one shouldn't get out of bed then (basing this on the fact that a helicopter itself should never fly over an area with people below in case of engine failure).
They argue this because the odds of what happened in Austria are so slim. Except they miss one point I feel. If a chopper's engine fails there is STILL a very good chance of a decent landing through auto-rotation (and a fairly reasonable opportunity to put it down AWAY from people or at least in an open space, circumstances allowing it - the odds are far better than a lost sling load "out of control" and falling straight down). Had that chopper had an engine failure over that cable and it's gondolas, I will put money on the fact that the pilots would have auto-rotated onto something ELSE (like the snow, mountain, rocks, whatever) and would have avoided that cable and gondolas like the plague... Get the difference? To sum up, Guns is correct I feel, with just a small amount of basic discipline and foresight (closing the cableway first etc), this tragedy would never have occurred. That commander should be hauled over the coals (sorry mate) - there are far too many "gung-ho" "chance takers" out there... |
:p:p:p
how is the Mi-24 going on? Oh and the Alo III 319 and the President's Sea King Commando ... just where they where parked ... Africa dear Africa .. :E |
From the BBC website at 16:50 BST:
The head of the Soelden cable cars, Jakob Falkner, said the helicopter flight above a moving cable car had been authorised. |
If he authorised it .. why not just authorise it 10 -50 m to the left / right of the cable car / line ?
Why over it ? :confused: :confused: :confused: |
>>why not just authorise it 10 -50 m to the left / right of the cable car / line ?
>>Why over it ? Presumably the route had to CROSS the cable at some stage. |
Meaning no disrespect to any of the above correspondents. If as has been suggested that there may have been no alternative to flying over the cable car lines. It is shear folly to fly over a "live" line with an under-slung load. The same with roads, railways, buildings, anything whereby a bystander may be injured irregardless of the unlikelyhood of an inadvertant release or failure.
My symathies to the berieved and the pilot(s) involved |
I empathise with the pilot - with such low hours, he probably was just doing as he had been told. Had no involvement in the planning, I suspect.
The route should be devised to bypass the cable car path and if this was impossible - close the lift for +- 15 mins of the task. Management (helo company and cable car company) have to take this hit:sad: |
Just out of curiousity, since when is a cable car considered to be "populated area"???
From what I have seen on TV there are rocks, rocks and nothing but rocks down that valley and just one little tiny cable. Why do we always have to look for the guilty one? Can't we just call it a tragic incident? |
Surely not...
Anyone, while doing external load work, using a cable car route as a line feature, up the mountain and fly over it, along it, while it is in operation, must be stupid and very inexperience.
I am sure this wasn't the case here? And if he had a dual check as stated by a senior more experienced pilot, I am sure the obstacle would have been mentioned and discussed and crossed safely and not followed up the mountain. But we do not have any information with regards to his routing. Furthermore it seems like all aspects of the operation was approved and covered. Crossing the line feature or the cable car route at an angle at a 1000 feet above the cable cars seems safe and considerate to me. If it was me crossing the cable at 90 degrees, I would have seen it as an acceptable risk, even more so flying over at 1000 feet up. South Africa is strict with it's regulations about external load operations in CBD's, but even after the accident, companies still did it, but first you had to demonstrate to SACAA the operation could be done safely, including safe contingencies were in place and entry and exit routes would be adhered to. Recent ops in Sandton, Pretoria University and at Johannesburg International Airport comes to mind. So I disagree with your statement Gunns that it isn't allowed. Best of luck to the pilot and the company. But one thing I can't believe form Time Out's post: Roy Knaus, the head of the Heli Alpin Knaus helicopter company, said he believed the pilot had had no idea that he had lost part of his load. |
Firstly let me pass on my best wishes to the families of those killed. Secondly to the pilot/s involved I truly feel for you guys. This was a one in a trillion chance happening. ( I did the math ) I have done my share of long lining and I fail to see how someone can sit in front of a computer and critisize when they dont know the situation. Production / Precision line work is some of the most challenging in the world and I can tell you that nothing would ever get done in this part of the world if we were to never fly over roards, rails ,rivers or wires. This wasnt bad airmanship guys, just bad luck. Very bad luck.
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As with all accidents, this one will prove to be composed of a chain of events which at any stage could have been broken and the accident prevented.
Even if it turns out to be finger trouble on the part of an inexperienced pilot, the chain could have been broken by better supervision, organisation, training, liaison - at any stage, all it would have taken was one person to say 'no that is a crap idea, why don't we do it another way/at a different time/etc' It is too easy to blame the pilot and ignore all the other people/factors that put him in the position. |
Gunship my dear, you have
cancelled it's airworthy "Certificate" ... oh and the other one that had DOUBLE engine failure (apparently that never happens as well)... Sorry back to the thread now The accident area is a wide glacier with just a few obstacles, the cable, the pylons and the gondolas. To bring the concrete to the construction site the helicopter must cross the cables, there is no other way possible. The route should be devised to bypass the cable car path and if this was impossible - close the lift for +- 15 mins of the task Spunk From what I have seen on TV there are rocks, rocks and nothing but rocks down that valley and just one little tiny cable. Because the load release happened in cruising flight i believe the experience of the pilot is without concern. A pilot with 850 h should know the right knob in the same way as a 10.000h pilot. If he have really pressed... nobody knows it at the moment!!! |
I know that I am only reading the news and not involved but ... folks are suggesting here that the helo was ferrying liquid concrete in a kettle. The same BBC web report from which I posted that the cross-route had been approved, says this in the first paragraph:
helicopter accidentally dropped a concrete block on a cable car The block, which was to be used for construction, hit one gondola, sending it plunging down. Two other gondolas swung violently, hurling people out. |
I beg to differ with some of the opinions that have been posted here by various individuals.
There would be NO circumstances that should allow an external load to be flown over an operational cable car. It is precisely because this kind of activity is not permitted, that you never read about accidents of this kind. Dealing with a construction crew and personnel involved with the operation on the ground, is an entirely different matter than flying an external load over the general public. The onus is on the Operator to ensure the safety not only of their own crew members, but also the public who are an innocent party to the operation that is going on around them. The initial safety consideration must always be the worst case scenario. If a risk analysis originates from this worst case, even the most unlikely "freak accident" is eliminated at stage one of the operational planning phase. I have set up and executed hundreds of external load jobs, and cannot tell you of a single one where anything like this has occurred, would be considered, or would be permitted. It is an unacceptable practice to fly an external load over an area where members of the public are located. The issue is not the cause of the load release. It is in the operational and safety aspects in the set-up of the job. It is a truly tragic occurence. Just for reference, it might be worth considering the FAA rules pertaining to external loads - pretty practical requirements, pretty practical advice. Extract from FAR Part 133 (d) Notwithstanding the provisions of part 91 of this chapter, the holder of a Rotorcraft External-Load Operator Certificate may conduct (in rotorcraft type certificated under and meeting the requirements of part 27 or 29 of this chapter, including the external-load attaching means) rotorcraft external-load operations over congested areas if those operations are conducted without hazard to persons or property on the surface and comply with the following: (1) The operator must develop a plan for each complete operation, coordinate this plan with the FAA Flight Standards District Office having jurisdiction over the area in which the operation will be conducted, and obtain approval for the operation from that district office. The plan must include an agreement with the appropriate political subdivision that local officials will exclude unauthorized persons from the area in which the operation will be conducted, coordination with air traffic control, if necessary, and a detailed chart depicting the flight routes and altitudes. (2) Each flight must be conducted at an altitude, and on a route, that will allow a jettisonable external load to be released, and the rotorcraft landed, in an emergency without hazard to persons or property on the surface. (e) Notwithstanding the provisions of part 91 of this chapter, and except as provided in Sec. 133.45(d), the holder of a Rotorcraft External-Load Operator Certificate may conduct external-load operations, including approaches, departures, and load positioning maneuvers necessary for the operation, below 500 feet above the surface and closer than 500 feet to persons, vessels, vehicles, and structures, if the operations are conducted without creating a hazard to persons or property on the surface. |
I am with Recuperator,
if you don't feel that load "leave" you are drugged/dead/dumb - you call it! It wasn't the concrete running out, but the whole kettle, wasn't it? That Helicopter must have made a jump that would definitely call your attention - if not the new guys, the oldtimers for sure! Can't really blame the pilot or the company though, as this is the work they choose and as far as it looks they did it within legal limits. You don't do it, someone else will. Now rocks here or there, obviously at least part of the cable track seems to go over the ski track, which means a fairly wide stretch of area, where you never know when someone is underneath. Considering all the dumb regulations one has to deal with, mainly brought on by non-flying bureaucrats without ever consulting with operators/pilots/etc. - basically denying the people with the experience to use common sense - it really strikes me that it is allowed to do cargo-ops under these circumstances. As mentioned before, if there is just a slight chance of personal involvement, the area has to be cleared, and if this means, you have to wait for the end of the skiing season, so be it! But telecom can't wait I guess! Condolences to all victims and a heads-up to the pilots, I hope you get through this! 3top |
gunship,
i saw the video of the helicopter crashing on the building while doing the aircon job. the strop was so short that the helicopter was right down near the top of the office block and the tail rotor struck the lift well or out building right next to the machine. a longer strop and it would not have happened from observing the video. |
PAXboy
i can confirm firsthand it was a kettle filled with liquid concrete. 3top, Recuperator at the press conference Roy Knaus personally told in front of the cameras, "the load leaved the helicopter and the pilot feeled the release IMMEDIATELY and lost the load out of the view in the mirror." This two points and all other versions and rumours are tales by medias or selfnamed "experts" coming out of every holes now. It's seems absolutely clear that knaus or the pilot have not broken any law in preparation. The whole job was right approved and in line with the austrian, german or switzerland (as Alps countries) laws. Several helicopter operators from this countries and the national authorities have stated now that they would give the approvements and would have done the job in the same way. There are no questions about this points. The one and only question is why released the hook the load? I found this as an example from US on the web: http://classichelicoptercorp.com/index.htm "Note: The Mobilization Rate may vary if the project site is outside our local area or in a city where special permits are required. If the work is to be performed in a densely populated or congested area, we need two weeks notice so that the proper permits can be obtained. Lifts performed in non-congested areas can be executed on short notice. " OK, Knaus hold all the permits... Cyclic Hotline CHAPTER 102. EVALUATE A PART 133 CONGESTED AREA PLAN "The Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) has determined that external-load operations are in the public interest and do not inherently pose an undue risk to the public." "Densely Populated Area. Title 14 CFR§§ 91.313 and 133.45(d) use the term “densely populated” area. Those areas of a city, town, or settlement that contain a large number of occupied homes, factories, stores, schools, and other structures are considered densely populated." |
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