Austrian cable car accident - Update
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Austrian cable car accident - Update
GunsssR4ever
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I do not want to sound like an ass but who flies accross active ski lifts with an underslung load ... safety ... airmanship ... eischhhh 
A helicopter carrying material to a mountain-top construction site shed its load over the ski-lift, knocking one car off its wires and causing others to swing violently and throw out their passengers, police said.
My thoughts exactly Guns.....I would not even fly across a powerline with a slingload for fear of having an electrical bill I would never pay off.
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Howzit mate ... man I hate discussing another man's mistakes but surely he should have thought what he was doing ... I mean or am I just being : " Easy to say in hind -sight" ... ?
I was not the most cosher pilot in my days but at least when I had an underslung I have never passed over even an animal... just logic I mean .. or what biys and gal's ?
I was not the most cosher pilot in my days but at least when I had an underslung I have never passed over even an animal... just logic I mean .. or what biys and gal's ?
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That's really scary . . . just two weeks ago I was in Austria and - you've guessed it - taking a ride in a cable car.
Not exactly the same spot, but still a bit freaky and definitely too close for comfort !
Not exactly the same spot, but still a bit freaky and definitely too close for comfort !
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Accurate...
I have done lots of underslung work, including precision vertical reference live power line maintenance. And even in controlled conditions, it was hard sometimes just placing the blokes onto the lines from 60 feet up.
Dropping a load from 1000 feet up and it accidentally hitting a cable car or cable must have been extremely well timed.
Granted, airmanship and bloody unlucky, for both the people that died and the pilot...
Condolences to the families.
Dropping a load from 1000 feet up and it accidentally hitting a cable car or cable must have been extremely well timed.
Granted, airmanship and bloody unlucky, for both the people that died and the pilot...
Condolences to the families.
Last edited by Recuperator; 5th Sep 2005 at 20:31.
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cable car incident
Well, everyone seems to point towards poor airmanship which ordinarily casts a shadow on the pilot. I think, and don't get me wrong, company management has everything to do with it. And perhaps a good hearted customer stood watch with a stop watch in his hand to mount the extra pressure on the crew - sheer speculation.
Regardless of these rumours that keep ushering in I say the company is marked like a shark in a swimming pool. Terrible thing to happen.
And for the families who lost loved ones one cannot even imagine. Another tragic day...Scary
Regardless of these rumours that keep ushering in I say the company is marked like a shark in a swimming pool. Terrible thing to happen.
And for the families who lost loved ones one cannot even imagine. Another tragic day...Scary
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bad management?
It's a very competitive market and the direct way is still the cheapest. The company had several mishaps in the last years.
The timing for hitting the car is unbelievabe....
The timing for hitting the car is unbelievabe....
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Aw come on, after 30+ years of external load work I have only had one inadvertant release of a load. I do not think it's poor airmanship to fly across powerlines or even a tram line with an external load. With out a look at the sling site it may not be practicle to get the load from the pick up point to the intended drop off site with out flying over the tram line.
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Conflicting reports AGAIN, News24.com states the following:
Tourists dead in Alps accident
Vienna - At least nine people died and several others were injured on Monday when a helicopter accidentally dropped a massive concrete block on a cable-car in the Austrian Alps, police said.
The victims were believed to be tourists, some of whom were knocked out of the cable-car when it was struck by the 750kg the APA news agency reported, citing the company that operates the cable-car.
The company said the block fell from a height of 300m onto the cable-car.
The block was being transported to be used in the construction of a telecommunications line.
A large-scale rescue operation was under way at the scene near the vilage of Soelden, which lies near the city of Innsbruck, local rescue officials said.
Vienna - At least nine people died and several others were injured on Monday when a helicopter accidentally dropped a massive concrete block on a cable-car in the Austrian Alps, police said.
The victims were believed to be tourists, some of whom were knocked out of the cable-car when it was struck by the 750kg the APA news agency reported, citing the company that operates the cable-car.
The company said the block fell from a height of 300m onto the cable-car.
The block was being transported to be used in the construction of a telecommunications line.
A large-scale rescue operation was under way at the scene near the vilage of Soelden, which lies near the city of Innsbruck, local rescue officials said.
Last edited by Recuperator; 5th Sep 2005 at 20:28.
Well , someone has to sit at home in the quiet time and consider that decision no matter why it was made. I am glad I don't have to be him.
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A few more details....
source
Very sorry for the victims/families and the pilot.
Nine dead as concrete falls on cable car
AT LEAST nine people, six of them children, died yesterday when a helicopter accidentally dropped a massive concrete block on to a cable car in the Austrian Alps.
One gondola hurtled to the ground and passengers were thrown from nearby cable cars after the load struck.
All of the dead appeared to be members of a German tour group, according to Edelbert Kohler, the head of police in Innsbruck.
The accident occurred in the ski-resort town of Soelden, 25 miles south-west of Innsbruck and some 300 miles west of Vienna.
The helicopter was hauling goods to the top of the cable-car lift for construction work when a huge chunk of concrete came loose and fell, Mr Kohler said.
"It was just terrible," one female eyewitness told Austrian radio. "There were bodies broken like rag dolls and this awful moaning from people whose limbs were broken and twisted from the fall.
"It was a terrible keening echoing through the mountain tops. It seemed there were some very young children lying there."
Four people were injured in the accident, while three others in the cable cars escaped injury, said Jakob Falkner, an executive of the cable car company.
But Red Cross officials claimed seven people were injured - five of them seriously.
Local media reports said the concrete weighed about 1,500 pounds.
Mr Kohler initially said it appeared that the chunk hit the cable, causing the gondolas to swing out of control, throwing the victims out.
But Mr Falkner told Austrian state television that the concrete directly hit one of the cable cars - a version later confirmed by Mr Kohler.
A dozen rescue helicopters hovered over the scene of the accident, while dozens of emergency workers rushed to the site on foot.
The glacier skiing area around Soelden - some of it almost 10,000 feet high - is popular with summer tourists, who flock to its perennially snow-covered peaks.
The accident happened shortly after 1pm local time, near the 11,000ft Schwarze Schneid mountain station - the goal for the helicopter's load.
Police said the helicopter had permission to transport the massive concrete blocks, which were to be used as the foundations for a new mobile phone and radar tower, but that a criminal investigation is now under way to discover what went wrong.
The cable car was taking the skiers between the Rettenbach and Tiefenbach glaciers when the concrete block fell from 900 feet above.
"It must have come down with the force of a high- explosive bomb," said a police spokesman.
Juergen Huffel, a tourist at the scene, said: "Yellow rescue helicopters swarmed in. There were loads of medical personnel on the ground within minutes.
"They realised very quickly just what a disaster it had been. One of the cable cars that had crashed into another one fell from the cable to the ground shortly afterwards, but all the people who had been underneath were no longer in the way."
Gottlieb Huetter, a police spokesman, said: "The people and cars fell about 15 metres. The injuries of some survivors were quite bad. People were flung out of the cars when they collided due to the vibration on the cables."
The cars can hold up to eight passengers at a time and are glassed in.
Mr Huetter added: "The passengers would not know what had hit them. It was like being bombed."
Roy Knaus, the head of the Heli Alpin Knaus helicopter company, said he believed the pilot had had no idea that he had lost part of his load.
Carl Ferrari-Brunnenfeld, a spokesman for the Austrian transport ministry, described the incident as a "tragic accident" and said it showed "how important it is that all safety procedures are strictly adhered to".
He added that cargo helicopters do not need special permission to take to the air and that the company is responsible for securing the materials they are transporting.
AT LEAST nine people, six of them children, died yesterday when a helicopter accidentally dropped a massive concrete block on to a cable car in the Austrian Alps.
One gondola hurtled to the ground and passengers were thrown from nearby cable cars after the load struck.
All of the dead appeared to be members of a German tour group, according to Edelbert Kohler, the head of police in Innsbruck.
The accident occurred in the ski-resort town of Soelden, 25 miles south-west of Innsbruck and some 300 miles west of Vienna.
The helicopter was hauling goods to the top of the cable-car lift for construction work when a huge chunk of concrete came loose and fell, Mr Kohler said.
"It was just terrible," one female eyewitness told Austrian radio. "There were bodies broken like rag dolls and this awful moaning from people whose limbs were broken and twisted from the fall.
"It was a terrible keening echoing through the mountain tops. It seemed there were some very young children lying there."
Four people were injured in the accident, while three others in the cable cars escaped injury, said Jakob Falkner, an executive of the cable car company.
But Red Cross officials claimed seven people were injured - five of them seriously.
Local media reports said the concrete weighed about 1,500 pounds.
Mr Kohler initially said it appeared that the chunk hit the cable, causing the gondolas to swing out of control, throwing the victims out.
But Mr Falkner told Austrian state television that the concrete directly hit one of the cable cars - a version later confirmed by Mr Kohler.
A dozen rescue helicopters hovered over the scene of the accident, while dozens of emergency workers rushed to the site on foot.
The glacier skiing area around Soelden - some of it almost 10,000 feet high - is popular with summer tourists, who flock to its perennially snow-covered peaks.
The accident happened shortly after 1pm local time, near the 11,000ft Schwarze Schneid mountain station - the goal for the helicopter's load.
Police said the helicopter had permission to transport the massive concrete blocks, which were to be used as the foundations for a new mobile phone and radar tower, but that a criminal investigation is now under way to discover what went wrong.
The cable car was taking the skiers between the Rettenbach and Tiefenbach glaciers when the concrete block fell from 900 feet above.
"It must have come down with the force of a high- explosive bomb," said a police spokesman.
Juergen Huffel, a tourist at the scene, said: "Yellow rescue helicopters swarmed in. There were loads of medical personnel on the ground within minutes.
"They realised very quickly just what a disaster it had been. One of the cable cars that had crashed into another one fell from the cable to the ground shortly afterwards, but all the people who had been underneath were no longer in the way."
Gottlieb Huetter, a police spokesman, said: "The people and cars fell about 15 metres. The injuries of some survivors were quite bad. People were flung out of the cars when they collided due to the vibration on the cables."
The cars can hold up to eight passengers at a time and are glassed in.
Mr Huetter added: "The passengers would not know what had hit them. It was like being bombed."
Roy Knaus, the head of the Heli Alpin Knaus helicopter company, said he believed the pilot had had no idea that he had lost part of his load.
Carl Ferrari-Brunnenfeld, a spokesman for the Austrian transport ministry, described the incident as a "tragic accident" and said it showed "how important it is that all safety procedures are strictly adhered to".
He added that cargo helicopters do not need special permission to take to the air and that the company is responsible for securing the materials they are transporting.
Very sorry for the victims/families and the pilot.
Remember the incident several years ago where the Navy/Marine Corps A-6 cut a set of tram wires and killed some people in Italy?
Much to do about that one...I do not care to think how this one might work out.
Much to do about that one...I do not care to think how this one might work out.
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JHR & Auscan I agree.
A tragedy for all concerned. My condolences to the families of the deceased, and the injured and their families; my heartfelt sympathies to the pilot and his/her family.
Skiing is regarded, at least by insurers, as a dangerous sport, but what odds of being on a cable car when the line gets hit with a block of concrete released from a thousand feet; as Recuperator intimated it is hardly believable.
Even with the ballistic coefficient of a block of concrete the aircraft would not have even reached the line when the release occurred.
A tragedy for all concerned. My condolences to the families of the deceased, and the injured and their families; my heartfelt sympathies to the pilot and his/her family.
Skiing is regarded, at least by insurers, as a dangerous sport, but what odds of being on a cable car when the line gets hit with a block of concrete released from a thousand feet; as Recuperator intimated it is hardly believable.
Even with the ballistic coefficient of a block of concrete the aircraft would not have even reached the line when the release occurred.
Unbelievable! What a accident. Deep condolences to the families of the deceased. My assistance and feelings to the pilot.
Well said JHR,
Absolutely arrogant, presumptuous and a sign of ignorance of this kind of operations to speak about poor airmanship or bad company management.
The accident happened in 2800m in snow and ice, only helicopters are able to bring loads in this area. It's a wide wide area and the cable is nearly the sole obstacle. I had personally 2 unexpected load releases in the past and the world of slingloaders is full of this kind of incident. There are many ways to loss a load. The German Border Guard encountered 2 unexpected load releases with human external load (short haul) two weeks ago and the mechanism of opening the hook in this incidents is also nearly unbelievable. Only the redundancy saved the lives of the rescuers.
At the moment it's unclear why the concrete kettle in Austria came off. But to hit a round about 2,5 inches steel cable and a 2,5m wide gondola from 800-1000ft is a feasibility only mathematicians or chair seater could calculate. It's absolutely common in Europe since 30 years to operate with sling loads above the heads (construction work) or in obstacle areas (towns, railway stations,...), there are thousends of cellular radio stations settled by helicopters in such areas as example, but may be this accident could change the minds of authorities, we have to evacuate the whole area before any chopper taking off and the helicopterbusiness will lost one of it's strongest parts.
Anyway blame the company, blame the mechanics or blame the pilot if the release reason is clear. But it stays a nearly unbelievable and very sad accident.
Well said JHR,
I do not think it's poor airmanship to fly across powerlines or even a tram line with an external load.
The accident happened in 2800m in snow and ice, only helicopters are able to bring loads in this area. It's a wide wide area and the cable is nearly the sole obstacle. I had personally 2 unexpected load releases in the past and the world of slingloaders is full of this kind of incident. There are many ways to loss a load. The German Border Guard encountered 2 unexpected load releases with human external load (short haul) two weeks ago and the mechanism of opening the hook in this incidents is also nearly unbelievable. Only the redundancy saved the lives of the rescuers.
At the moment it's unclear why the concrete kettle in Austria came off. But to hit a round about 2,5 inches steel cable and a 2,5m wide gondola from 800-1000ft is a feasibility only mathematicians or chair seater could calculate. It's absolutely common in Europe since 30 years to operate with sling loads above the heads (construction work) or in obstacle areas (towns, railway stations,...), there are thousends of cellular radio stations settled by helicopters in such areas as example, but may be this accident could change the minds of authorities, we have to evacuate the whole area before any chopper taking off and the helicopterbusiness will lost one of it's strongest parts.
Anyway blame the company, blame the mechanics or blame the pilot if the release reason is clear. But it stays a nearly unbelievable and very sad accident.
Last edited by tecpilot; 6th Sep 2005 at 06:50.
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this bloody accident
Yes it is poor management because that freakin cable car should not have been in operation. And apart from that two pilots where in the cockpit - one high timer and one low timer - those are the facts. So in my opinion, the high timer is responsible for what the low timer did or not.
How much guts and imagination does it take for a freakin cable car company to suspend operations for at least the duration of flight operations? It is a safety matter. Apply the 5M model if you ever heard of this.
It is always greed that prevails instead logical reasoning because the cable car company might loose a few hours on revenue...bollocks
Loads come off hooks its a given and one is lucky if it does not hit anybody. It would have only hit a stupid metal cage if it weren't for the passengers in there...that's the tragedy and arrogance that comes with it. If the pilot(s) will be guilty then I say the cable car company is guilty as well.
If this statement is too harsh then I apologize...but this had to be said.
How much guts and imagination does it take for a freakin cable car company to suspend operations for at least the duration of flight operations? It is a safety matter. Apply the 5M model if you ever heard of this.
It is always greed that prevails instead logical reasoning because the cable car company might loose a few hours on revenue...bollocks
Loads come off hooks its a given and one is lucky if it does not hit anybody. It would have only hit a stupid metal cage if it weren't for the passengers in there...that's the tragedy and arrogance that comes with it. If the pilot(s) will be guilty then I say the cable car company is guilty as well.
If this statement is too harsh then I apologize...but this had to be said.
alouette,
my dear, let's us cool down, we are shocked by this tragedy.
It's impssible to shut down all ground work in an helicopter flying area. What will you do in case of construction works? Is the feasibility of hitting the cable (seems to be clear that the kettle hit at first the cable, never heard of such a sad bullseye) greater than to chrash with the whole ship in a house or a car or... or.. on the ground in case of a technical malfunction? If we think so we have to evacuate the complete route + safety area of any helicopter or aircraft. It's often impossible not to overfly humans with slingloads. If we stop this operations because of this reasons we have to stop all street traffic, because we all know accidents with cars suddenly hitting houses or humans. Evacuate a complete safety strip around all streets!
May be mechanics or the pilots have failed, there are humans. May be the cargo hook failed. Only metal! How many car drivers failing evering day? How many people have to die therefore every day?
I know this area very good, i would never say it's difficult or risky on a alldays operation, hauling concrete, to operate here. If the kettle missed the cable 5m nobody would talk about. God, i wished the dammned kettle have gone a few seconds before and is resting now for the the next 1000 years in the glacier.
And not to forget, salute to my austrian rescue friends, within 45 minutes 14 helicopters were on scene, supplied 8 heavy injured survivors and evacuated more than 100 persons sitting in the blocked cable gondolas by HEC within a short time. And evacuating a gondola isn't a game!
my dear, let's us cool down, we are shocked by this tragedy.
It's impssible to shut down all ground work in an helicopter flying area. What will you do in case of construction works? Is the feasibility of hitting the cable (seems to be clear that the kettle hit at first the cable, never heard of such a sad bullseye) greater than to chrash with the whole ship in a house or a car or... or.. on the ground in case of a technical malfunction? If we think so we have to evacuate the complete route + safety area of any helicopter or aircraft. It's often impossible not to overfly humans with slingloads. If we stop this operations because of this reasons we have to stop all street traffic, because we all know accidents with cars suddenly hitting houses or humans. Evacuate a complete safety strip around all streets!
May be mechanics or the pilots have failed, there are humans. May be the cargo hook failed. Only metal! How many car drivers failing evering day? How many people have to die therefore every day?
I know this area very good, i would never say it's difficult or risky on a alldays operation, hauling concrete, to operate here. If the kettle missed the cable 5m nobody would talk about. God, i wished the dammned kettle have gone a few seconds before and is resting now for the the next 1000 years in the glacier.
And not to forget, salute to my austrian rescue friends, within 45 minutes 14 helicopters were on scene, supplied 8 heavy injured survivors and evacuated more than 100 persons sitting in the blocked cable gondolas by HEC within a short time. And evacuating a gondola isn't a game!
Last edited by tecpilot; 6th Sep 2005 at 07:54.
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I have been reading this thread and thought I would make a comment, as some of the responses are constructive and others are plan crap.
Earlier this evening Roy Knaus, the owner of the company, and I had been exchanging text messages. He is a friend and as you can appreciate is trying to consol a very distressed pilot, who for members info here, visits from time to time, so go a little easy, you never know who reads these forums.
At this stage they still have no idea what happened and rather than jumping to conclusions Roy is leaving it in the hands of the investigators to work out exactly how and why this happened.
Just my two cents worth.
Ned
Earlier this evening Roy Knaus, the owner of the company, and I had been exchanging text messages. He is a friend and as you can appreciate is trying to consol a very distressed pilot, who for members info here, visits from time to time, so go a little easy, you never know who reads these forums.
At this stage they still have no idea what happened and rather than jumping to conclusions Roy is leaving it in the hands of the investigators to work out exactly how and why this happened.
Just my two cents worth.
Ned
