Flightsuits and Survival Suits
 

I recently picked up a brand new nomex flight suit from an army surplus shop. It is actually for tank crews but has reasonable fire resistant qualities. I wonder if anyone eles has one / wears one for flying light aircraft / has considered wearing one.

I suspect this topic will follow the lines of the bone dome argument. Ie. yes, once in a lifetime it may be handy but the rest of the time you will look like an excentric in the flying clubs. I suppose to be totally effective you also need nomex gloves and eye protection.

Whether or not I will wear it remains to be seen, but reading about the slingsby crash in January Pilot magazine where the occupants were trapped and there was a fire does make you wonder.

What do you think?

Virtually all the time, I can fill the pockets with all my flying gubbins, it protects my clothes (pre-flighting on a farmstrip and all that) and perhaps I have the eye of an ex-military man, but I think they look good too.

Oh yes, and if you crash, they're flame retardant.

G

If you were trapped in a burning aircraft, then you will toast. A nomex suit will give you a bit of protection, but it is just flame retardent, and that is it.

A mate of mine ejected from a burning Jag after a mid-air. The soles of his boots were melted, and his badges got burnt off. But the suit, and the bits of his body covered by the suit were fine. He wasn't in the aircraft for more than a few seconds after impact though.

A word of caution though. Nomex is flame retardant but it is not a good insulator against heat. In other words, although it doesn't burn, heat will pass through it. For that reason we were ordered to wear another layer of non-melting clothing underneath, preferably cotton, as per our military long underwear. Racing drivers' nomex suits are multi-layered for this reason. Not a problem in winter, but the temptation is to go naked underneath in hot weather.

Whatever you do, don't wear nylon as it melts into your skin.

[This message has been edited by ShyTorque (edited 09 January 2001).]

Don't just put it through the washing machine either, if you want to keep the fire retardation effective. I believe they do need a certain amount of specialist treatment periodically. Not sure exactly what they do to them, 'cause I just went and got a new one. :)
Maybe there are some ex SEqF's reading?

Cheers

Borax and Boracilic Acid. You can get it from some chemists. Can't remember the proportions, but I can probably find out for you if you want.

It will flameproof your clothes (or re-flameproof your flying suit after washing). It really works! The only after affects of 1 minute's exposure to flame of some thin cotton that had been treated was that it was brittle. No burning though.

If you want to make cotton flame retardent then, yes you need to dip in all sorts of potions but Nomex IS flame retardent. I washed my Dan-Dare playsuits iaw the washing instructions every few days (gas mark 4 or whatever the label inside says).

How much does a Nomex flying suit (or tank drivers suit) cost then?

You can sometimes get bargains from
http://www.flightsuits.com/
I bought a Nomex suit from them for 58 bucks (nearer 100 dollars by the time I'd paid freight). It was listed at $218 but was a cancelled order. Very good service and it arrived within a week of order.

The tank drivers suit I got cost 20 quid so I couldn't resist! It was from an ex army shop on the south coast and the suit was vacum packed and brand new. Trouble is most are old and knackered or have been used for decorating at some point. Luck of the draw really. There were one or two proper flight suits with lots more pockets for about the same price but too big for me.

Brand new flak jackets too for 30 smakers if you are interested.

skips.

(By the way i changed name because excite crashed and I lost all my emails I ever had so I started over.)

Survival suits
 

hi, my company is looking for a good cold water survival suit for the helicopter crews.any advice?
thanks in advance.

I don't know all that's out there, but I've been impressed with Mustangs suits. http://www.mustangsurvival.com/

What you should consider:
- How long do you expect to be in the water?
- How cold is the water?
- Is the suit comfortable/durable enough for constant use?
- Do you need additional flotation or do you want that from the suit?

I say this because we carry a dry suit with a thermal liner, gore-tex socks and rubber neck/wrist seals that is extremely good at keeping people alive. However, it's hot, uncomfortable, knees wear out for the GIBs, and it provides more protection than is needed in the summer. The result of all that is that most of the time our suits are sitting in a bag in the back, ready for us if we're planning on extended overwater/offshore flight or if engaging in a risky over water operation. Because of this we're looking at a more comfortable and durable suit from Mustang that will be worn more frequently. A suit that provides less protection is better than the suit you aren't wearing.

You should also consider signalling devices. Being able to stay alive in freezing oceans for six hours is great, but if the rescuers can't see you... I'd recommend a sea dye marker because it's visible from relatively high altitudes and it can "deploy" on it's own. Problem is it dissipates, especially in moderate or greater sea states. There's also a floating streamer from Rescue Technologies that looks promising http://www.seerescue.com/ . It's visible at lower search altitudes, so if your position is approximately known it works well.

Of course, a radio/beacon is the best signalling device to get the rescuers close and then a strobe light to get them on the spot. I think it's nice to have signals that don't rely on batteries.

Matthew.

Try Multifabs. (Aberdeen,UK)

www.multifabs-survival.co.uk/

We currently use the Multifabs suit for our daily trips in the North Sea. It's not the most comportable, but it will allow you to be active for the time needed for the pax. to be gathered. I've tried the suit in the "dunker" course, and you will get wet in a short time. I've also tried a new suit from Multifabs that will keep you "zipped" in at all times. It's better than the former suit but never as great as the ones the pax. are wearing. But you need to be able to function in it, and it can be pretty hot during the summer. I haven't seen any pilot suit making up for both. In addition we use an inflatable vest w/ a beacon and a knife. If you know that you are going to be over water for a long time, use a suit. Better to be safe than sorry...

22 years ago I had the opportunity to put on an Imperial (Life saving suit?). It was a "quick donning" suit. It had one-way valves in the feet to vent air. Other wise you could easily wind up head down with the feet inflated and not able to right yourself. I did exactly that in a pool wearing a poopie suit after stepping off the high dive. Rescue swimmers, good idea! I swam around in a fjord for 40 minutes with no sensation of cold. Had the survival vest on underneath and determined it was possible to pull an arm into the chest area, get the flare gun loaded and pushed out the top of the zipper, in calm water. But, this was a 400% stretch, double faced, "Quick Donning" neoprene suit. If wore this as a constant wear suit you would have no problem passing your next weight check if you survived the dehydration.

Flightsuits and Helicopters
 

Hi,anyone can help me to find a place for buying a flight suit in the European Union?Thanks in advance.

Yes, try RSH Air Ware, based at Gloucester Airport UK

www.rshairware.co.uk

[email protected]

and no I dont work for them.

Plastic flight suits.
 

A pilot walks into a psychiatrist's office wearing only a flight suit made of Saran Wrap.
The psychiatrist says, "Well...I can clearly see you're nuts."

this place isn't in Europe, but they make great suits and will ship them over (located in California)... I know a few people that have ordered with them

www.flightsuits.com

they make suits for the military, police, and rescue units....

and no, I don't work for them! ;)

flight suits
 

Try Merit apparrel.(google search)
Much better than flight suits.com and cheaper.
I too don't work for them.
humbly yours

Sorry it's not EU based but another link for Pilot equipment
And no I don't work for this State side unit eitherhttp://www.transaeroinc.com/catalog.cfm?fuseaction=listProduct&manufacturerID=42&categor y=pilot&subCategoryID=21&searchType=productLine&catStart=1&p lineStart=1

Immersion suits / life vests / sea survival?
 

I hope you don't mind me posting this question here, but if anyone knows I suspect the users of this forum do.

I'm putting together some gear to fly cross-channel, to the Scillies and around the Baltic in a Super Cub and have a couple of questions about life vests, immersion suits and EPIRBs. If the engine quits and I manage to get out, I would hate to die because I'm stupidly under-equipped, although I'm not going to have a raft because of weight and space concerns and the low likelihood of getting it out of the baggage space in a cub.

1. Life vests
Doug Ritter at www.equipped.com highly recommends the dual chamber Switlik Helicopter Crew Vest as being the best on the market. Any feedback on that? They're jolly expensive.

2. Goretex versus neoprene immersion suits
I already have a (North Sea?) goretex immersion suit, secondhand, bought from South Eastern Marine Services for £100. I need a second one and am now looking at a US Navy / Coastguard neoprene one. Would this be a bad buy? What are the advantages of goretex vs neoprene? Anyone got any opinions on this?

3. EPIRBs
Various ones on the market. Any recommendations as to frequencies, brands etc.? How essential are they?

4. Any other 'do not leave home without' suggestions for gear, bearing in mind restrictions on weight and bulk and the difficulty of getting out of the front seat of a cub at the best of times? If you don't get out, it doesn't matter what you're loaded up with.

I realise that after my most recent contribution to the helicopter ditching thread I am laying myself w-i-i-i-de open, but hey! ;-)

Thanks in advance,

QDM

You obviously buy the best gear you can afford. However not taking a life raft is a big no no. In some helicopters such as the Bell 206, it is impossible to get a raft out from the back seat especially if you didn't have floats fitted and had a front seat passenger. On those occasions I had a small single seat raft attached to my trouser belt, so that as long as I got out, I had a raft. Quite confidence building!:O

Your obviousley going well prepared, but I think the most important piece of safety equipment for an extended over water crossing would be a HEED or Spare Air unit. All the SAR gear in the world won't help you if you don't get out of the aircraft alive!
A HEED 2 or HEED 3 system would suffice. It will give you about 30 secs of good air in a difficult situation.
Don't leave home without one :D

Definitely go for a "dry" type immersion suit, so the goretex would be my choice. HOWEVER, what you wear underneath it is vitally important. The suit will protect you from the initial cold shock as you enter the water but it will not provide you with insulation. If you do not therefore get into a raft you will still die relatively quickly from hypothermia, you've got about an hour in 5 degree water unless you are properly insulated. Several thermal layers worn beneath your immersion suit would be just the job.

Concur with the comment about a HEEDs unit, or STASS as it is also known, worth their weight in gold and have saved the lives of several helicopter aircrew in ditchings.

Perhaps not totally relevent to a fixed wing ditching, but if you can attend a Helicopter Underwater Escape Training course (HUETS) it would help your survival prospects.

Learning how to get out of a sinking inverted bathtub without too much panic from yourself and crew and the sea survival techniques thereafter would be valuable.

I do not know where an individual can attend such a course in the UK (The oil industry presents them in-house) but there must be a school somewhere running a one day session. A few hundred pounds for a skill for life...

Doc.......
 

1......Firstly, Get a second engine for your Cub [and make it a Turbine whilst your at it].

2......Yes the Switlik is a good option..........and have your local boot maker sew the HEEDS/Spare Air holster onto the inside edge of the Jacket so the HEEDS is always attached [good advice Nigel......if its not on you when things go wrong, it won't be with you in the water].

3.....In your Switlik Pockets:

Heligraph
VHF/UHF Epirb
Day/Night Flare
Knife
Pocket Rocket Flares
Pressure dressing

4.......406 EPIRB [as well as the small epirb in your Switlik]......this will Tx on 406, 121.5 and 243 mhz.....and give a triangulation of your position....also it should be registered with your local SAR folk, and your aircraft Registration can be encypted in the Sat Signal........so we know who you are and where you are. [Use Google and "406 Epirb"...lots of good www sites for info]

5......Yes a high quality Heliraft [as apart from a marine raft]....reversable and better quality.

6......Personal suit of course....and wear it.

7......Fly as high as you can..........

8.......And of course that 15 year old Single Malt for the SAR crew when they find you.

Good luck.

There are numerous civilian "dunkers" in UK. Aberdean - Yarmouth
Fleetwood etc. One I would recommend is @ Andark Diving Nr. Southampton Tel: 01489 581755 - Andy who owns the complex is also a rotary pilot and runs a retail outfit selling wet/dry suits etc.
The civvy "Spare Air" will cost a lot less, is the same size and give about 10 minutes breathing near the surface. Best buy direct from California USA

Many thanks to all respondents. Loads of useful info.

The interesting thing is the extreme discrepancy between what most private pilots take to cross water (1 lifejacket of indeterminate age, possibly never serviced) and what you actually need to survive if things go wrong. It's good to hear it from the horse's mouth, but bloody hell this stuff is expensive, innit?!

The dunker course would be useful, but won't make it this year, certainly. I'm a bit sceptical about spare air until I've done the dunker course, but does anyone know of any suppliers of the civvy version?

Also, does anyone have any recommendation for very small, very light liferafts?

Thanks,

QDM

Give Del Hall of SES Ltd at Kemble a bell.
01285 771171

He can supply all you need including one man dingys for crew.
DO NOT GET A BOOTMAKER to stitch things to your life vest. Get a pro to do it.
Your life could depend on it.

In fact my wife attached my HEEDS system onto my Switlik..........and don't even try to go there!!!

Sit in a position that is consistant with your "Cub" and place the HEEDS Pouch on the left or right side of your jacket and adjust it up and down until its in a comfortable position that is free of belts, cords and other obstructions.........mark the position with chalk, and get your wife, boot chappy or Safety Equippy Chap to sew in onto the Switlik rearmost edge..........but attach it regardless.

I have seen chaps that use Velcro....however this can tear lose under the strength of a panic application!!!

Of course....never inflate those bladders until you are free of the aircraft.....

I undertook a world standard HUET/HEEDS Course at Nutech in Aberdeen Scotland..........apart from water finding each and every orifice in my body, I survived the day.

For a bunch of English Pounds...they will give you the skills you require........


Our HEEDS came from US Divers in New York USA.....there should be a www site for them.

EPIRB with or without GPS?
 

I'm now looking at the McMurdo Fast Find personal locator beacon:

http://www.gps.co.uk/htmfiles/surveqip/fastfind.htm

The question is how necessary is it to buy the Fast Find Plus which incorporates a GPS receiver and transmits position accurate to 30m or is the Fast Find adequate at a mere 3NM? The Fast Find costs about £350 and the Plus costs about £700.

I guess the Fast Find Plus is much better, but it costs an extra £350. Expensive business this, isn't it?

QDM

It's a question of trade-offs. £350 extra, versus giving SAR a position accurate to 30m if you should end up in the water. Assuming the worst, if you lose your raft and end up in the water with only a lifejacket , the reduced time spent searching may end up saving your life.

Yes, that's the problem with all this survival gear. All you have to do is imagine yourself in the situation saying: "Damn, wish I'd spent that extra £350, then I wouldn't have to die!"

Hard to argue with really.

Thanks all,

QDM

reading this thread got me reading an AAIB report on a ditching in 1995 Aerospatiale AS332L Super Puma, G-TIGK and I just want to check something..
from the report:
and
I can only assume "sealed" is meant to be "seabed" :confused:

Ahhhaaaahhh Jim dal so you’ve never venturel to the lepths of Neptune where only sailors with brave heart and valour explore the sealed and the unlersea creatures that spenl their lays there. Nor facel the mighty powers of the AAIL with their runes of rhetoric anl amazingly missed d/l transposition typos??

(Sorry got carried away there…) ;)

Immersion suit neck fitting
 

I'm posting this here because I am guessing the Rotorheads are most likely to have most experience with immersion suits.

I have a Multifabs ex-North Sea goretex immersion suit which seems to fit me fine elsewhere, except the neck is extremely uncomfortable when done up and chafes. I have read a US Coastguard stern warning to its crews to make sure that the neck is always done up very tightly, or else water can get in, thus reducing the effectiveness of the suit. I am therefore guessing this is not an uncommon problem.

Do any Rotorheads have any advice on this? How can I get it to be comfortable and be waterproof at the same time, or are the two mutually exclusive?

Thanks in advance,

QDM

immersion suit fitting
 

Try either a large size support bandage they come in letter sizes a to f or g, thigh size I find best or stockinette. it fits snug and stops irritation if the **** hits the fan or more the sea water,just pull it out to get the best seal. works for me having played mermaid.

As an inner garment, try a cotton roll neck vest. Same trick if used in anger, pull up the neck seal!

QDM

Your question reminds me of an incident years ago when a friend and I flew the Atlantic in a fixed-wing.
He'd got hold of some used mil immersion suits and, when preparing our kit the night before the flight, gave me mine with a rubber band. Q: What's that for? A: One of the wrist seals is missing on yours.
Thankfully, the engine kept going all the way to Texas and we didn't have to test his improvisation in the North Atlantic! :rolleyes: