Why are helis so expensive?
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Why are helis so expensive?
No offence to you rotorheads, but I checked with a local flight school and got really irritated: $175/ hr for a R22! That's a rate for a multiengine piston (C-310)!
Why is it that helicopters are so much more expensive? Are they just so much more inefficient? Is the TBO lower? Sorry to ask such a "dumb" question, I didn't really feel like bringing it up at the flight school
Why is it that helicopters are so much more expensive? Are they just so much more inefficient? Is the TBO lower? Sorry to ask such a "dumb" question, I didn't really feel like bringing it up at the flight school
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That is very far from a dumb question! I think The R22 only costs something like $60 per hour to operate, I would really like to know from the experts and in particular from the large schools how they can justify such a massive mark up, this is far more excessive then our fixed wing counterparts
Fixed wing costs:
C172, replace engine every 2000 hrs, known cost
C172, replace prop every x hours, known cost
50/100hrly, known cost
Unscheduled maintenance, cost can be calculated
Helicopter (any type)
50/100hrly, known cost
x hours, replace main rotor blades
x hours, replace tail rotor blades
x hours, replace engine
x hours, overhaul main rotor head
x hours, replace main rotorhead components
x hours, etc, etc
Basically, helicopters have heaps more lifed items than a fixed wing, the cost of which has to be amortised back into an hourly rate. Plus, those lifed items tend to be more expensive, because the lower numbers of helicopters built mean that development costs have to be amortised into a smaller number of items.
Clear as mud
C172, replace engine every 2000 hrs, known cost
C172, replace prop every x hours, known cost
50/100hrly, known cost
Unscheduled maintenance, cost can be calculated
Helicopter (any type)
50/100hrly, known cost
x hours, replace main rotor blades
x hours, replace tail rotor blades
x hours, replace engine
x hours, overhaul main rotor head
x hours, replace main rotorhead components
x hours, etc, etc
Basically, helicopters have heaps more lifed items than a fixed wing, the cost of which has to be amortised back into an hourly rate. Plus, those lifed items tend to be more expensive, because the lower numbers of helicopters built mean that development costs have to be amortised into a smaller number of items.
Clear as mud
Well, helicopter flying is as close to sex as you get with clothes on, and I gather that the $175 an hour is the right rate for a woman !
Seriously, in the case of the R22, there's the purchase price, insurance and all the other fixed costs PLUS you need to save up about $65,000 to send the aircraft back after 220 hours for a rebuild. Over 2200 hours this alone is $30 an hour.
In the UK, rates I've hear - COST - for an R22 are in the order of £110 an hour which works out at $175 as a straight conversion.
Seriously, in the case of the R22, there's the purchase price, insurance and all the other fixed costs PLUS you need to save up about $65,000 to send the aircraft back after 220 hours for a rebuild. Over 2200 hours this alone is $30 an hour.
In the UK, rates I've hear - COST - for an R22 are in the order of £110 an hour which works out at $175 as a straight conversion.
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Here in the UK the dual rate for an R22 is around £215 an hour (which usually includes a 'landing fee') and the wet self-fly-hire rate is about £155 - both plus tax at 17.5 percent.
The R22 has a single lifed part, effectively the whole helicopter, which makes the amortisation equation easier. With an on-the-road price of £130,000 to be written down to around £20,000 over 2,200 hours, depreciation on the first trip around the clock is £50 an hour. (It falls to around £31 an hour second time around, but unscheduled maintenance costs rise significantly).
Budget for another £25 an hour for maintenance, £30 an hour for fuel and oil, £15 an hour for insurance (at 400 hours a year - adjust accordingly) and £10 an hour for miscellaneous items like hangarage and you're pretty close to the starting line. If you have any finance costs or you get unlucky with unscheduled maintenance, you'll be in the unhappy position of subsidising everyone who hires your helicopter at £155 an hour. Even under the best possible circumstances there's very little margin in it.
A QFI where I teach gets £60 an hour and a Restricted is paid £40 an hour, which helps you arrive at the dual figure.
The R22 has a single lifed part, effectively the whole helicopter, which makes the amortisation equation easier. With an on-the-road price of £130,000 to be written down to around £20,000 over 2,200 hours, depreciation on the first trip around the clock is £50 an hour. (It falls to around £31 an hour second time around, but unscheduled maintenance costs rise significantly).
Budget for another £25 an hour for maintenance, £30 an hour for fuel and oil, £15 an hour for insurance (at 400 hours a year - adjust accordingly) and £10 an hour for miscellaneous items like hangarage and you're pretty close to the starting line. If you have any finance costs or you get unlucky with unscheduled maintenance, you'll be in the unhappy position of subsidising everyone who hires your helicopter at £155 an hour. Even under the best possible circumstances there's very little margin in it.
A QFI where I teach gets £60 an hour and a Restricted is paid £40 an hour, which helps you arrive at the dual figure.
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For example, it costs about $950 to have a 100-hour inspection performed on an R-22 for private owners where I live (don't know how much annuals cost). Same place charges $175/hr rental and $210/hr dual instruction. The "instrument" ship goes for $225/hr solo.
R-22 requires overhaul at 2200 hours or 12 years (whichever comes first). In the field (i.e. at service center), that will cost about $88K. At the factory, that will cost about $105K. It's actually better to get it done at factory, because you are getting a whole new ship (I think the airframe, avionics, and the seats are the only components not replaced and repainted).
Pathfinder insurance (takes care of most Robbie's) just sent notification through RHC that rates will increase by 50% for anyone who has an accident or incident after the 15th of July. If you were to take a $130,000 for R-22 and divide it by 2200 hours, it comes out to about $60 per hour. Obviously, there is a lot more costs involved besides the purchase price (interest paid on principle, fuel, fluids, scheduled maintenance, unscheduled maintenance, insurance, overhead such as hangar & airport fees). After all that, it doesn't leave much room for profit. Especially, when parts are expensive ($3000 bucks just to replace doors).
Having said all that, why do helicopters cost so much more?...
BECAUSE THEY ARE WORTH IT!
Flying fixed-wing is the most boring activity I've ever participated in (at least for single engine Cessna's, etc). Now, acrobatic aircraft or jets are entirely something different. But the average Cessna just doesn't do it for me. There's nothing like flying a helicopter and I'll never go back to fixed-wing...
Once you've become "one" with the "Heli-Force," you will learn that the "Flat-Side" is "evil." Fortunately, there is still time for you to turn from the Flat-Side to the Heli-Force, where you can experience true joy and freedom.
R-22 requires overhaul at 2200 hours or 12 years (whichever comes first). In the field (i.e. at service center), that will cost about $88K. At the factory, that will cost about $105K. It's actually better to get it done at factory, because you are getting a whole new ship (I think the airframe, avionics, and the seats are the only components not replaced and repainted).
Pathfinder insurance (takes care of most Robbie's) just sent notification through RHC that rates will increase by 50% for anyone who has an accident or incident after the 15th of July. If you were to take a $130,000 for R-22 and divide it by 2200 hours, it comes out to about $60 per hour. Obviously, there is a lot more costs involved besides the purchase price (interest paid on principle, fuel, fluids, scheduled maintenance, unscheduled maintenance, insurance, overhead such as hangar & airport fees). After all that, it doesn't leave much room for profit. Especially, when parts are expensive ($3000 bucks just to replace doors).
Having said all that, why do helicopters cost so much more?...
BECAUSE THEY ARE WORTH IT!
Flying fixed-wing is the most boring activity I've ever participated in (at least for single engine Cessna's, etc). Now, acrobatic aircraft or jets are entirely something different. But the average Cessna just doesn't do it for me. There's nothing like flying a helicopter and I'll never go back to fixed-wing...
Once you've become "one" with the "Heli-Force," you will learn that the "Flat-Side" is "evil." Fortunately, there is still time for you to turn from the Flat-Side to the Heli-Force, where you can experience true joy and freedom.
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More like $200/hr now down here.
Heli's have many more life limited, and tolerance driven parts than any fixed wing aircraft. whether or not the old adage of "12 hours of maint for every hour in the air" applies, I think so eventually.
It's just a more complicated machine to maintain, even the robbo ends up having the head replaced at TBO, and that cost is factored in.
Heli's have many more life limited, and tolerance driven parts than any fixed wing aircraft. whether or not the old adage of "12 hours of maint for every hour in the air" applies, I think so eventually.
It's just a more complicated machine to maintain, even the robbo ends up having the head replaced at TBO, and that cost is factored in.
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FI's deserve to be paid reasonably well, they certainly are not going to make the hours in the U.K that CFI's in the U.S make, and they have to eat somehow!
On top of that the amount of money, time and painstaking effort to get where they are deserves a half decent Wage!
Good answers so far, but $3000 for crappy little door? Come on, justify that....
On top of that the amount of money, time and painstaking effort to get where they are deserves a half decent Wage!
Good answers so far, but $3000 for crappy little door? Come on, justify that....
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Can't really justify the cost of the doors. Most manufacturers make their money on spare parts after the aircraft sale, don't they? It costs thousands and thousands for the manufacturer to certify the parts for their aircraft, but they more than make up for it in volume. My opinion, but this is definately one area where they gouch the consumer. It's not like you can buy parts from another source.
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In Aussie ,insurance is the big killer but of course if you do plenty of hours this will cut the hourly rate down.
I enquired on an R22 and it was 15% of value(insured amount)
Have a friend with a Cessna 172 and his is 1% of value.
Think current training rate around $350aus--solo$300
2200 hour rebuild-------$175,000.
Plus being an import exchange rates stuff around the purchase prices.Years ago you could get one for the eqivelant of $200,00 ,then over the last few years it rose to $300,000 as the yank $ rose and the Aussie $ went down.Now hopefully saving a bit now things are reversing.
All the operating costs etc seem way short of an hourly hire rate ,but a lot of unforseen replacements may be needed.If you have a good run you make a good profit.
Also lease costs or if you brought outright (can earn a few bob with $300 grand invested)
Depreciation ,although this wouldnt be too much over its lifetime.
As for doors etc ,tell me a spare part place that doent rip you off,especially if their factory ones.
ever bought a wiper blade for a BMW or similar to find its made by same mob that is on a ford except its 10 times the price.Thats more names sake though instead of limited prodution
I enquired on an R22 and it was 15% of value(insured amount)
Have a friend with a Cessna 172 and his is 1% of value.
Think current training rate around $350aus--solo$300
2200 hour rebuild-------$175,000.
Plus being an import exchange rates stuff around the purchase prices.Years ago you could get one for the eqivelant of $200,00 ,then over the last few years it rose to $300,000 as the yank $ rose and the Aussie $ went down.Now hopefully saving a bit now things are reversing.
All the operating costs etc seem way short of an hourly hire rate ,but a lot of unforseen replacements may be needed.If you have a good run you make a good profit.
Also lease costs or if you brought outright (can earn a few bob with $300 grand invested)
Depreciation ,although this wouldnt be too much over its lifetime.
As for doors etc ,tell me a spare part place that doent rip you off,especially if their factory ones.
ever bought a wiper blade for a BMW or similar to find its made by same mob that is on a ford except its 10 times the price.Thats more names sake though instead of limited prodution
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How can $3,000 for two poorly made doors be justified?
Lu ?
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There is a future.
Perhaps the soon to be released JAR VLR (Very Light Rotorcraft) will allow the development of lower cost, but reliable, helicopters. The US Sports Plane/Pilot will not include helicopters but the FAA appears to be interest in having its own VLR compliant regulations.
New Kit Helicopter
IMHO the introduction next year of Wilksch's WAM-160 diesel engine offers a huge amount of potential for the development of a new light kit helicopter. Wilksch is the only manufacturer of diesel aircraft engines that have come to terms with the weight issue.
If there was interest (i.e. financial backing) then I know a man who might be interested in developing one for you. The use of the WAM-160 engine with modern structures and aerodynamics would give an R22 size machine with a high inertia rotor system and slightly improved performance.
It wouldn't change the world but it would look gorgeous and be dirt cheap (£50K) to buy and £40/hr to operate. Maintenance requirements would be similar to the R22, as would service intervals.
CRAN
(...armed with a pencil and a slide rule.)
If there was interest (i.e. financial backing) then I know a man who might be interested in developing one for you. The use of the WAM-160 engine with modern structures and aerodynamics would give an R22 size machine with a high inertia rotor system and slightly improved performance.
It wouldn't change the world but it would look gorgeous and be dirt cheap (£50K) to buy and £40/hr to operate. Maintenance requirements would be similar to the R22, as would service intervals.
CRAN
(...armed with a pencil and a slide rule.)
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A low cost trainer.
This post is going to display a lot of ignorance, but ....
My limited understanding is that;
OK. The dumb question.
Why is it not possible or practical for a company that makes an old design of certified helicopter with two seats, such as the Brantly, to step by step, just like Carson, change and improve the helicopter till it no longer resembles the original.
Would this be a viable way to develop an economical helicopter that could eventually compete with the R-22 as a trainer.
My limited understanding is that;
- It is extremely expensive to bring out a totally new helicopter.
- The S-92 is a derivative of the Blackhawk and the R-44 is a derivative of the R-22, and this results in a much lower cost of certification.
- Carson has just brought out composite blades for the S-61 that can lift 2000 lbs more then the original metal blades
- Carson is looking at expanding the envelope for S-61's with composite blades.
- Carson is developing new tail rotor blades for the S-61.
- Carson is looking at avenues of aerodynamic drag reduction for the S-92.
OK. The dumb question.
Why is it not possible or practical for a company that makes an old design of certified helicopter with two seats, such as the Brantly, to step by step, just like Carson, change and improve the helicopter till it no longer resembles the original.
Would this be a viable way to develop an economical helicopter that could eventually compete with the R-22 as a trainer.
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Progress schmogress.
Robinson can accomplish all of the above by designing a three blade rotor system for the R-22. You would have a highly reliable aircraft and at the same time eliminate the SFAR, do away with the safety course, eliminate hours requirements for a PPH to take passengers, eliminate the restrictions for sideslip, flying out of trim and flying in zero G. True you might get ground resonance but good maintenance will do away with that as well.
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Lu, your on to something here, personally I would stay as far away from an R22 as possible, they are dangerous little things, and besides I am a fat B**tard!
Getting certified on one nowadays is a world of pain and a tonne of hassle and money that could be better spent on getting rated on a decent helicopter!!
Getting certified on one nowadays is a world of pain and a tonne of hassle and money that could be better spent on getting rated on a decent helicopter!!