"Average" hours
Join Date: Aug 2002
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Bones
I started last April and passed 12 months later with just over 50 hours.
Weather and frequency is the major consideration. I was flying twice a week to start with which made a huge difference in terms of general handling and familiarisation. I managed to sneek the cross country in at the end of September and then didn't fly again for months due to the weather.
So, I'd suggest that you make sure you have the funds available upfront and that you start the training earlier in the year to allow you to make the most of the weather (obviously less relevant if you train in the States)
Best of luck....it's the best thing!!
I started last April and passed 12 months later with just over 50 hours.
Weather and frequency is the major consideration. I was flying twice a week to start with which made a huge difference in terms of general handling and familiarisation. I managed to sneek the cross country in at the end of September and then didn't fly again for months due to the weather.
So, I'd suggest that you make sure you have the funds available upfront and that you start the training earlier in the year to allow you to make the most of the weather (obviously less relevant if you train in the States)
Best of luck....it's the best thing!!
Join Date: Dec 2001
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Bones1972,
Even if you don't end up doing a complete intensive course, then at least try to start it that way. I did about 10hrs in the first week and it was the best thing I ever did (I had about 25hrs fixed-wing from 10 years previously, which helped a bit). I got the licence with about 42hrs, and that was only due to a delay in waiting for the medical. Don't worry too much if you fly with different instructors - due to illness I had a few in that first week and learned something new from each of them. Just make sure you get some continuity though, as I did, as it helps in the long run.
DBChopper
Even if you don't end up doing a complete intensive course, then at least try to start it that way. I did about 10hrs in the first week and it was the best thing I ever did (I had about 25hrs fixed-wing from 10 years previously, which helped a bit). I got the licence with about 42hrs, and that was only due to a delay in waiting for the medical. Don't worry too much if you fly with different instructors - due to illness I had a few in that first week and learned something new from each of them. Just make sure you get some continuity though, as I did, as it helps in the long run.
DBChopper
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35hrs in summer 1998. Two/three lessons a week initially.
I already had a Fixed-wing PPL with about 350hrs - so that helped with the RT,Nav,Wx etc..
Was I ready? Probably not
Now a part-time helicopter FI(R) with about 400hrs.
Boffo.
I already had a Fixed-wing PPL with about 350hrs - so that helped with the RT,Nav,Wx etc..
Was I ready? Probably not
Now a part-time helicopter FI(R) with about 400hrs.
Boffo.
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Finished 2 weeks ago and i did it in 88 hrs. I started last Oct and it was mean't to be full time . The weather wiped out Oct,Nov,Dec and some of Jan.It was a very frustrating time ,i nearly opted to go abroad but read an article from the british heli association ,see there web page. If i remember rightly ,it was advising on the pro's and cons of training abroad.Thus i completed in the U.K.
The reason it took me so long was that i created a sort of phobea that made me not trust the flown heading .I wanted to know exactly where i was all the time in ref to the map. My instructor must of been banging his head every morning when he got up .no not him today !!!The problem was that i could fly really well but could not navigate ..
Well ,all done and dusted now ,going flying today.i'm going to enjoy summer flying and then do commercial module over winter.Weather will play a major factor on your training.
Never posted here before but read articles daily.Thanks for sharing your experiences to a beginner.
Good luck Bones - its worth it !
The reason it took me so long was that i created a sort of phobea that made me not trust the flown heading .I wanted to know exactly where i was all the time in ref to the map. My instructor must of been banging his head every morning when he got up .no not him today !!!The problem was that i could fly really well but could not navigate ..
Well ,all done and dusted now ,going flying today.i'm going to enjoy summer flying and then do commercial module over winter.Weather will play a major factor on your training.
Never posted here before but read articles daily.Thanks for sharing your experiences to a beginner.
Good luck Bones - its worth it !
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....should have said, make sure you get your medical before you spend ANY money on flying. No point being able to fly like a hero if the docs won't sign that crucial piece of paper.
Thread Starter
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You must be a mind reader groundcushion - decided to get medical first and initially booked up with my optician for a thorough eye exam.
And found out my left eye is F**K*D!!!!! What a blow - I've only just managed to pull myself together after six days of kicking the cat.
I've now booked myself up with a specialist for a second opinion - so keep your fingers crossed for me.
Cheers all,
Bones
And found out my left eye is F**K*D!!!!! What a blow - I've only just managed to pull myself together after six days of kicking the cat.
I've now booked myself up with a specialist for a second opinion - so keep your fingers crossed for me.
Cheers all,
Bones
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and a brief return to Schools Having Their Own Examiner
a little anecdote to prove that on-staff examiner probably an OK way to go:
Background: In 1999, when the first-time-pass rate for ALL CFI candidates in Orlando, FL FSDO jurisdiction was about 85% (in the ballpark of what FAA likes to see), the Orlando office decided the quality of instruction being administered was not as good as they would like.
(Sampling instructional quality is done by the occasional FAA-inspector retest of recent student graduates, and of pilots involved in incidents/accidents where pilot error is major factor.)
Main Event: So Orlando SUSPENDED all initial CFI issuances by Designated Pilot Examiners (the non-FAA-inspector examiners at schools & independent). All (Orlando Area, or most of Florida) initial CFI practical tests were performed by FAA inspectors.
Punch Line: The first-time-pass-rate for initial CFI tests DROPPED from 85% to 40%!!!
Conclusion: (drawn by everybody) was that the Designees had been being too easy on candidates. Which suggests that the school-employed examiners were giving easy tests to CFI's (and, by extension, their other graduates).
That was 3 years ago. I have no data, but the implication is that everybody now gives about the same level of challenge in practical tests, the Designated Examiners having been rapped on the knuckles by implication.
Background: In 1999, when the first-time-pass rate for ALL CFI candidates in Orlando, FL FSDO jurisdiction was about 85% (in the ballpark of what FAA likes to see), the Orlando office decided the quality of instruction being administered was not as good as they would like.
(Sampling instructional quality is done by the occasional FAA-inspector retest of recent student graduates, and of pilots involved in incidents/accidents where pilot error is major factor.)
Main Event: So Orlando SUSPENDED all initial CFI issuances by Designated Pilot Examiners (the non-FAA-inspector examiners at schools & independent). All (Orlando Area, or most of Florida) initial CFI practical tests were performed by FAA inspectors.
Punch Line: The first-time-pass-rate for initial CFI tests DROPPED from 85% to 40%!!!
Conclusion: (drawn by everybody) was that the Designees had been being too easy on candidates. Which suggests that the school-employed examiners were giving easy tests to CFI's (and, by extension, their other graduates).
That was 3 years ago. I have no data, but the implication is that everybody now gives about the same level of challenge in practical tests, the Designated Examiners having been rapped on the knuckles by implication.
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Thought provoking story, but I am not sure that it necessarily proves that non "Fed" examiners accept lower standards of those being tested. It may be a bit more complicated than this.
When I started examining ab-initio PPL(H)s a while ago, I was astonished at how worked-up some candidates could get. This caused them to fly very badly, much worse than I had seen them fly previously. By changing the way that examiners deal with candidates, they can very much affect the performance of the person they are testing. A more sympathetic approach can cause a pilot to perform as well as he/she can - you don't change the standards that you accept, but how the pilot performs.
With the boot on the other foot, so to speak, I have been tested by many examiners over the years myself. I have found some quite intimidating and flew a lot less well than with other examiners.
When I started examining ab-initio PPL(H)s a while ago, I was astonished at how worked-up some candidates could get. This caused them to fly very badly, much worse than I had seen them fly previously. By changing the way that examiners deal with candidates, they can very much affect the performance of the person they are testing. A more sympathetic approach can cause a pilot to perform as well as he/she can - you don't change the standards that you accept, but how the pilot performs.
With the boot on the other foot, so to speak, I have been tested by many examiners over the years myself. I have found some quite intimidating and flew a lot less well than with other examiners.
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My pvt doesnt count, as it was an add on to my fixed wing licence.
Did it with appox 37 hours.
The question of average time always bothers me, as it sets up the student into comparing him/her self to an imaginary standard.
Unfortunately we do have the minimums for the ratings as just that, so my answer to (future) students will be to ourtline the minimums, but point out that other factors already outlined here will determine how long it will take them.
If pressed, I agree with 60-70 hours as a general range to give out.
Here's a question on the same topic, how long will you go with a student whom you just know is not going to be able to fly to standards? IE, will likely not solo, let alone go to the checkride.
I have seen such a situation here, wanted input from others, but can say that no one here blindly after a period just kept taking that students $$$, etc. Choices were offered.
Did it with appox 37 hours.
The question of average time always bothers me, as it sets up the student into comparing him/her self to an imaginary standard.
Unfortunately we do have the minimums for the ratings as just that, so my answer to (future) students will be to ourtline the minimums, but point out that other factors already outlined here will determine how long it will take them.
If pressed, I agree with 60-70 hours as a general range to give out.
Here's a question on the same topic, how long will you go with a student whom you just know is not going to be able to fly to standards? IE, will likely not solo, let alone go to the checkride.
I have seen such a situation here, wanted input from others, but can say that no one here blindly after a period just kept taking that students $$$, etc. Choices were offered.
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RW-1
I agree, the ppl is not a race. Mind when you are paying the bill yourself, it is all too easy to get "houritis". Budgeting for 60 -70 hours seems sensible.
As for those who will never manage it.... I've had students who I felt were never going to get there and I simply had a quiet chat to tell them that they were struggling. I gave them the option of flying with another instructor, but most just said that they enjoyed it too much to give up and would just keep taking lessons. Ah to have that much money....
I agree, the ppl is not a race. Mind when you are paying the bill yourself, it is all too easy to get "houritis". Budgeting for 60 -70 hours seems sensible.
As for those who will never manage it.... I've had students who I felt were never going to get there and I simply had a quiet chat to tell them that they were struggling. I gave them the option of flying with another instructor, but most just said that they enjoyed it too much to give up and would just keep taking lessons. Ah to have that much money....
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Would having a reasonable simulator / training device that would let you brush up on techniques following a layoff from flying help?
What else would / could you do with such a device?
What else would / could you do with such a device?
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I have never had the chance to fly in a helicopter simulator, I have tried a plank one but I would be supprised if any simulator (at a reasonable cost) could really replicate a real helicopter.
But my mind is open, I still think 'hours is hours'
RB
But my mind is open, I still think 'hours is hours'
RB
rotorboater :
The top end helicopter simulators are reasonable enough that the CAA allow training to be carried out on them.
I also know of a small simulator for which approval is being sought, and which costs less than $100,000. There are others already approved but they're quite costly.
The top end helicopter simulators are reasonable enough that the CAA allow training to be carried out on them.
I also know of a small simulator for which approval is being sought, and which costs less than $100,000. There are others already approved but they're quite costly.
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Shawn,
Simulators are a practical and useful thing for some sorts of flying - I would love to have access to even a decent PC simulator to keep some sort of currency in instrument flying these days. However, that is a bit different from the sort of simulator that would be of much use at the basic ab-initio/PPL training level.
When I used to do ab-initio training I would suggest that students spent time in the cockpit with the helicopter in the hangar: there would be some benefit to this and a pretty good hourly rate too ............
Crashondeck
In the self-selecting PPL(H) training world, the only qualification for most students to start is that they want to learn to fly and think they have a big enough bundle of money. It is therefore inevitable that a few will fall into the "very slow" or "unsuitable" category. I think the important thing is for the instructor to keep communicating with the student: being candid about their progress, listening to how the student feels.
People come in all sorts of different ways to learning to fly and are driven by different goals. What you say is right (in my experience), but very occasionally you do get a student who is (effectively) a hopeless case, combined with a large dollop of stubbornness (and a fairly hefty lump of disposable income too). I recall one guy who had somewhere around 80 hours and had not gone solo, because he was not ready and it would not have been safe. We tried different instructors, we kept talking to him about his (lack of) progress - effectively suggesting he should try some other pastime, but he would not give up. He did not prepare himself well either - knackered from world travel, unfit and stressed up. He stayed with us for 18 moths + and then went to another school but never progressed.
Another similar case, eventually went to another school, eventually got his licence and then crashed a helicopter on virtually his first self-fly hire trip- then he gave up!
I got immense pleasure from successfully teaching "slower than average" students - seeing the satisfaction they got from making progress finally was a great reward. But I used to really worry about these extreme cases which were rare but extremely difficult. In the end I had two principles that I used to stick to:
- Keep telling them about my assessment of their progress;
- Don't let them go to the next stage until they were safe
Simulators are a practical and useful thing for some sorts of flying - I would love to have access to even a decent PC simulator to keep some sort of currency in instrument flying these days. However, that is a bit different from the sort of simulator that would be of much use at the basic ab-initio/PPL training level.
When I used to do ab-initio training I would suggest that students spent time in the cockpit with the helicopter in the hangar: there would be some benefit to this and a pretty good hourly rate too ............
Crashondeck
In the self-selecting PPL(H) training world, the only qualification for most students to start is that they want to learn to fly and think they have a big enough bundle of money. It is therefore inevitable that a few will fall into the "very slow" or "unsuitable" category. I think the important thing is for the instructor to keep communicating with the student: being candid about their progress, listening to how the student feels.
People come in all sorts of different ways to learning to fly and are driven by different goals. What you say is right (in my experience), but very occasionally you do get a student who is (effectively) a hopeless case, combined with a large dollop of stubbornness (and a fairly hefty lump of disposable income too). I recall one guy who had somewhere around 80 hours and had not gone solo, because he was not ready and it would not have been safe. We tried different instructors, we kept talking to him about his (lack of) progress - effectively suggesting he should try some other pastime, but he would not give up. He did not prepare himself well either - knackered from world travel, unfit and stressed up. He stayed with us for 18 moths + and then went to another school but never progressed.
Another similar case, eventually went to another school, eventually got his licence and then crashed a helicopter on virtually his first self-fly hire trip- then he gave up!
I got immense pleasure from successfully teaching "slower than average" students - seeing the satisfaction they got from making progress finally was a great reward. But I used to really worry about these extreme cases which were rare but extremely difficult. In the end I had two principles that I used to stick to:
- Keep telling them about my assessment of their progress;
- Don't let them go to the next stage until they were safe
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The Cicare simulator,
http://www.helis.com/timeline/cicare.php
Look at the SVH-3
which is a rotax powered heli held within a "frame" is very nice for giving the beginning student feel for the controls, etc. (The 22 is much more responsive, but you still get a good working knowledge of control relationships without the chance of killing yourself and bending metal)
I used it myself in my advanced stages of commercial prep just to do "stuck pedal" situations, whirling around madly without fear, which then, after letting me experience its yaw rate in a full power tail rotor loss, let me concentrate on recovery procedures, and how one can manage throttle in said situations, etc.
Then there is the fly - it sims which as pointed out, are good for inst training without incurring the cost of the heli itself.
I am also a strong advocate of "chair flying" (but NOT armchair logging of time
) sitting either in the cockpit or out of it and imagining where you are and what you are doing can also work for a student of any type.
http://www.helis.com/timeline/cicare.php
Look at the SVH-3
which is a rotax powered heli held within a "frame" is very nice for giving the beginning student feel for the controls, etc. (The 22 is much more responsive, but you still get a good working knowledge of control relationships without the chance of killing yourself and bending metal)
I used it myself in my advanced stages of commercial prep just to do "stuck pedal" situations, whirling around madly without fear, which then, after letting me experience its yaw rate in a full power tail rotor loss, let me concentrate on recovery procedures, and how one can manage throttle in said situations, etc.
Then there is the fly - it sims which as pointed out, are good for inst training without incurring the cost of the heli itself.
I am also a strong advocate of "chair flying" (but NOT armchair logging of time
) sitting either in the cockpit or out of it and imagining where you are and what you are doing can also work for a student of any type.
