CHC OZ the preferred tenderer for RAAF SAR
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Trimpot,
Small correction required. The Bendigo and LTV contract was initially won by Noris DInan. CHC then picked it up for various reasons that have discussed here before. CHC won the PAW contract back in the late nineties when I was still there. They are currently in the "option" stage of the contract which I believe runs out in 2006.
And you are quite right...we didn't leave the NSCA by choice did we!!!!!!
Small correction required. The Bendigo and LTV contract was initially won by Noris DInan. CHC then picked it up for various reasons that have discussed here before. CHC won the PAW contract back in the late nineties when I was still there. They are currently in the "option" stage of the contract which I believe runs out in 2006.
And you are quite right...we didn't leave the NSCA by choice did we!!!!!!
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Winchop.....
The statement I made, or should I say the question I possed, was how many RAAF Pilots have ejected in the last 10 years.
I understand that highly trained and under utilised crews are a frustrated lot, which is becoming obvious.
I don't care either which company wins, as long as its Aussie owned.
But the question remains unanswered - how many RAAF Pilots have been saved [not reach, but life saved] for AUS$100,000,000??
And the police BK was in Perth, and could go 90 nm and a simple winch. Not sure why it did'nt go, bet no one wanted to ask.
I understand that highly trained and under utilised crews are a frustrated lot, which is becoming obvious.
I don't care either which company wins, as long as its Aussie owned.
But the question remains unanswered - how many RAAF Pilots have been saved [not reach, but life saved] for AUS$100,000,000??
And the police BK was in Perth, and could go 90 nm and a simple winch. Not sure why it did'nt go, bet no one wanted to ask.
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High Nr: - Re the NSCA, How does one desert a company when there is no company?? Also, you obviously dont know why the WA Police Airwing could NOT go out and rescue the A4 pilot? along with any other operator (and no it was not because they were U/S). By the way this is not meant to be offend any other operator it's simply to say that there are certain procedures that other companies are not required to perform.
Regarding 'Aussie Company' How many Defence contracts are operated by Australian owned companies, Not many.
Also, Do you know the cost of the military providing their own SAR, go and do the numbers... as a taxpayer I'm glad that the government has saved money using a contractor, better still one that employe's Aussie's :-)
Too Cloudy: - Re your other post "Clearance,
asked to name one contract CHC won by default....let me see, the VIC Police was a good example". I then read your post that said "CHC won the PAW contract back in the late nineties when I was still there. They are currently in the "option" stage of the contract which I believe runs out in 2006", Par-lease, I'm now offically confussed! Just on the MAS contract - Noris Dinan defaulted on the contract, the other companies were asked to re-tender, Noris was not asked!... CHC along with the other operators re-tendered and the rest is history.
Regarding 'Aussie Company' How many Defence contracts are operated by Australian owned companies, Not many.
Also, Do you know the cost of the military providing their own SAR, go and do the numbers... as a taxpayer I'm glad that the government has saved money using a contractor, better still one that employe's Aussie's :-)
Too Cloudy: - Re your other post "Clearance,
asked to name one contract CHC won by default....let me see, the VIC Police was a good example". I then read your post that said "CHC won the PAW contract back in the late nineties when I was still there. They are currently in the "option" stage of the contract which I believe runs out in 2006", Par-lease, I'm now offically confussed! Just on the MAS contract - Noris Dinan defaulted on the contract, the other companies were asked to re-tender, Noris was not asked!... CHC along with the other operators re-tendered and the rest is history.
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High Nr
Sometimes it's hard to get an answer to a stupid question. By your logic why would you parachute with one of those expensive reserve parachutes, I mean, how often do they get used and they do cost rather a lot of money. Well ask any parachutist if he/she would like to jump without a reserve, oh and while your at it ask some of those knuckleheads how they would like to fly those very noisy jets with no SAR coverage.
That reminds me, must remove those airbags from the car, what if one goes off, could cost me a fortune!
Sometimes it's hard to get an answer to a stupid question. By your logic why would you parachute with one of those expensive reserve parachutes, I mean, how often do they get used and they do cost rather a lot of money. Well ask any parachutist if he/she would like to jump without a reserve, oh and while your at it ask some of those knuckleheads how they would like to fly those very noisy jets with no SAR coverage.
That reminds me, must remove those airbags from the car, what if one goes off, could cost me a fortune!
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Trimpot....
Years and years ago in another life.........dressed in a greenbag with a 350 visible outside SAR Flights window, we actually did some work.
Albeit, the 350 was a bit limited, however the Atars kept us busy.....but now with the F404's, your life is just a breeze [or bore].
So back off mate....your life may be wrapped up to tightly in what you think is important, but many have been there before, and sooner or later "we" all realise its a wasted task.
And the Knucks.....they will do exactly as they are ordered, and their viewpoint doesn't reach Canberra.....theres no Trade Union or EBA there.
Albeit, the 350 was a bit limited, however the Atars kept us busy.....but now with the F404's, your life is just a breeze [or bore].
So back off mate....your life may be wrapped up to tightly in what you think is important, but many have been there before, and sooner or later "we" all realise its a wasted task.
And the Knucks.....they will do exactly as they are ordered, and their viewpoint doesn't reach Canberra.....theres no Trade Union or EBA there.
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High Nr: Flying a desk now are we?
"Years and years dressed in a green bag with a 350 visable outside SAR Flights window"
I've heard it all what a pathetic argument. The fact YOU did Sar however many years ago with the 350's is like doing RPT in a Robbie! I am well aware that you had 350's as Sar machines in the old Sar flight and I guess by the fact that the Defence force went out and gave it to a contractor to provide full sar coverage is testament to your effectivness.
No High Nr, you have not been there before, you just think you have!
PS: I say well done to the CHC guys best of luck over the next ten years and also the next 5 at Jandakot I'll be keep an eye out for you when next you fly over City Beach
"Years and years dressed in a green bag with a 350 visable outside SAR Flights window"
I've heard it all what a pathetic argument. The fact YOU did Sar however many years ago with the 350's is like doing RPT in a Robbie! I am well aware that you had 350's as Sar machines in the old Sar flight and I guess by the fact that the Defence force went out and gave it to a contractor to provide full sar coverage is testament to your effectivness.
No High Nr, you have not been there before, you just think you have!
PS: I say well done to the CHC guys best of luck over the next ten years and also the next 5 at Jandakot I'll be keep an eye out for you when next you fly over City Beach
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Interesting Viewpoints
There are a few points that need to be straightened a little.
The Military did not give the contract to the Civil Industry due to their inability to undertake the task. Mr John Fredericks from the defunct NSCA was instrumental in offering the Military a service far in excess of the Mils capacity....and at a super discounted price. But that is another story in itself.
Once the kid has the lollipop try to take it away again!!!
At the same time, the "Powers To Be" decided that the Army should control their own helicopters, which makes perfect sense.
Therefore that left the Air Force with only a handful of aging small machines that were spread out at the various RAAF Bases, common sense then suggested that why spend money on introducing a Non Military capable asset for SAR???...the rest is history.
Trimpot and Wineboy, we are running a Human Factors Course in September, are you interested in attending?
The Military did not give the contract to the Civil Industry due to their inability to undertake the task. Mr John Fredericks from the defunct NSCA was instrumental in offering the Military a service far in excess of the Mils capacity....and at a super discounted price. But that is another story in itself.
Once the kid has the lollipop try to take it away again!!!
At the same time, the "Powers To Be" decided that the Army should control their own helicopters, which makes perfect sense.
Therefore that left the Air Force with only a handful of aging small machines that were spread out at the various RAAF Bases, common sense then suggested that why spend money on introducing a Non Military capable asset for SAR???...the rest is history.
Trimpot and Wineboy, we are running a Human Factors Course in September, are you interested in attending?
Last edited by Red Wine; 9th Jul 2003 at 23:37.
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I've heard it all what a pathetic argument. The fact YOU did Sar however many years ago with the 350's is like doing RPT in a Robbie! I am well aware that you had 350's as Sar machines in the old Sar flight and I guess by the fact that the Defence force went out and gave it to a contractor to provide full sar coverage is testament to your effectivness.
Does this mean that people who rode horses were pathetic?
Remember that when the SAR contracts were first let to the "civvies" that the a/c of choice was a B212 which had little more capability than the pre 350 days a/c. i.e. the Huey.
It's not pathetic, it's called progress and using your resources to the maximum. (The resource in this case being $$$$)
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Remember that when the SAR contracts were first let to the "civvies" that the a/c of choice was a B212 which had little more capability than the pre 350 days a/c. i.e. the Huey.
Whilst very out dated now, not bad for a 'civvy' out fit then.
Clearance.
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Not so - In fact, they were fitted with a basic auto-hover system called a Louis Newmark - LN-450 and a GNS-500 RNAV, SCAS, Bendix Wx Radar.
Did the 212's ever do any actual rescues or see any action?
For those who scoff at a 212, remember that for the most part they replaced B-model Iroquois. These aircraft were fitted with the following navaids and hovering equipment:
1. Single ADF
2. FM homing
3. Nothing else
4. Still nothing else
5. Ditto
6. More of the above
7. Same as points 1 to 6.
8. See point 7
Pretty bluddy basic, and when you are 30 miles out to sea in a gale with 300' cloudbase looking for three idiots in a sinking yacht, you feel a bit vulnerable. Specially when you find them in a raft, and there are 6 of them, and you already have a crew of four on board, and there are only 3 seats spare. And when they have all been hoisted aboard, and you get them back to Willy, they trot off to a press conference, and don't even say thank you...
A 212 is a huge improvement, and a 412 or 76 is nirvana.
1. Single ADF
2. FM homing
3. Nothing else
4. Still nothing else
5. Ditto
6. More of the above
7. Same as points 1 to 6.
8. See point 7
Pretty bluddy basic, and when you are 30 miles out to sea in a gale with 300' cloudbase looking for three idiots in a sinking yacht, you feel a bit vulnerable. Specially when you find them in a raft, and there are 6 of them, and you already have a crew of four on board, and there are only 3 seats spare. And when they have all been hoisted aboard, and you get them back to Willy, they trot off to a press conference, and don't even say thank you...
A 212 is a huge improvement, and a 412 or 76 is nirvana.
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A 212 is a huge improvement, and a 412 or 76 is nirvana.
Your comments just show how good the 'B' model was!
Personally I prefered the 'H' model over the 212 and all of them over the 412!!!!
Then again the 76 just leaves them all for dead
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Back off holidays now, sorry about the delay.
High Nr
For someone who has had all of their arguments shot down in flames I suppose the last resort is to tell me to "back off" (or run away and tell your mummy). SAR in a 350? and you think the present contract is a waste of time!! For what it's worth, I no longer work for CHC and as such I don't think I'm to "tightly wrapped" in the task they perform. I do, however, object to Know-it-alls pontificating when they really know f--kall about the contract and what the crews actually do.
I also question you notion of what is important and what is not. If you are flying people around Ayres Rock or flying a media crew to a flower show in Burke is that a waste of time? Not if you are the pilot or the crew! As Clearance pointed out, you are probably flying a desk right now. Are you? If you are, who's task is really wasted? By the way you still haven't sent me a private message.
Straightman
God bless the venerable old 212. The old girl particpated in many, many rescues and was well before it's time in regards to over-water-at-night capability. As far as comparing it to the huey I just don't think it's fare. They are both venerable old work horses that should be allowed to die gracefully (BUT given the choice I'll take the 212 with all the fruit thanks!).
High Nr
For someone who has had all of their arguments shot down in flames I suppose the last resort is to tell me to "back off" (or run away and tell your mummy). SAR in a 350? and you think the present contract is a waste of time!! For what it's worth, I no longer work for CHC and as such I don't think I'm to "tightly wrapped" in the task they perform. I do, however, object to Know-it-alls pontificating when they really know f--kall about the contract and what the crews actually do.
I also question you notion of what is important and what is not. If you are flying people around Ayres Rock or flying a media crew to a flower show in Burke is that a waste of time? Not if you are the pilot or the crew! As Clearance pointed out, you are probably flying a desk right now. Are you? If you are, who's task is really wasted? By the way you still haven't sent me a private message.
Straightman
God bless the venerable old 212. The old girl particpated in many, many rescues and was well before it's time in regards to over-water-at-night capability. As far as comparing it to the huey I just don't think it's fare. They are both venerable old work horses that should be allowed to die gracefully (BUT given the choice I'll take the 212 with all the fruit thanks!).
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Hi Big Boy
I thought life was always one big holiday for you!!! Give a hug to your 3 girls for me.
And yes, the 212 as well as the 76 did go to some RAAF rescues. Unfortunately the Macchi pilot we picked up out of the sea in a 212 was already dead before he hit the water. However I'm sure his family appreciated having him brought back home.
I thought life was always one big holiday for you!!! Give a hug to your 3 girls for me.
And yes, the 212 as well as the 76 did go to some RAAF rescues. Unfortunately the Macchi pilot we picked up out of the sea in a 212 was already dead before he hit the water. However I'm sure his family appreciated having him brought back home.
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Difficultly in answering a direct question!!!!
Your obviously a retired crewperson, Mr Trimpot.
In fact I was quite involved in the Civil Contract when I worked in the Eastern Suburbs of Sydney.
One thing that must always be asked and answered, particularly when other people's money is being spent, is valve for money.
The question that was asked and still remains unanswered, and is fundamentally central to the issue being discussed.
What return has the RAAF received for spending over 100 million dollars????
Any of their assets saved?
Any Airmen saved?
Any invaders repelled?
We all know the correct answer, even thou you seem to have trouble with the answer, or can't spell ZERO.
In fact I was quite involved in the Civil Contract when I worked in the Eastern Suburbs of Sydney.
One thing that must always be asked and answered, particularly when other people's money is being spent, is valve for money.
The question that was asked and still remains unanswered, and is fundamentally central to the issue being discussed.
What return has the RAAF received for spending over 100 million dollars????
Any of their assets saved?
Any Airmen saved?
Any invaders repelled?
We all know the correct answer, even thou you seem to have trouble with the answer, or can't spell ZERO.
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HighNr I really don't understand why you have such a huge chip on your shoulder, or is it just a windup, or are you a competitor who lost out in the past? Either way you seem very bitter. Any SAR / EMS type asset is there as a "just in case". Some are far busier than others and some also have secondary duties i.e. not just doing standby (CHC). You can bet your bottom dollar that as soon as an asset like that is disposed of, it will be required. Are you going to make the decision to get rid of them and then face the grieving relatives of the next ejectee who drowns because no one was there to pick him up? I get the impression you are ex military, how much value for money have they been, how many invaders have they repelled? - as you put it. Hard to put a value on I suggest.
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Well it doesn't really matter what I think,and it really doesn't matter what you think, High Nr. What really matters is what the RAAF think, and it would seem that they think that they are getting good value for money because, not only have they kept with CHC, they have increased the size of the contract! Also, I don't know where you got the figure of $100 million from, but I would have thought that the use of 8 helicopters (five of which are autohover) and all the crews, engineering, ect for 14 years is really quite cheap. Less that $900,000 per year per machine. As for ZERO value, well I personally stretcher winched two Macchi pilots out of the bush, both of whom had vertabra fractures, both of whom went back flying. Do I think the contract is value for money, you bet I do, but as I said at the start, what I think really doesn't matter does it?
Assets saved? Invaders repelled? Not in the tender, that would have cost more
Hi Nigel, the girls are great, hope all's well with you
Assets saved? Invaders repelled? Not in the tender, that would have cost more
Hi Nigel, the girls are great, hope all's well with you
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High Nr
Time to lay all that bitterness to rest old son, dust off the plaques and remember the good old days. Autohover all singing all dancing machines are what does the job now, and they have done a number of rescues that other machines can't do. civvy or military? who cares, value for money? you tell me the price you are prepared to pay if your wife, son, grandchild is floating in the ocean at night, be it from a sunken yacht or banging out of a jet- mute point.
Trimpot- 1, High Nr- 0
High Nr
Time to lay all that bitterness to rest old son, dust off the plaques and remember the good old days. Autohover all singing all dancing machines are what does the job now, and they have done a number of rescues that other machines can't do. civvy or military? who cares, value for money? you tell me the price you are prepared to pay if your wife, son, grandchild is floating in the ocean at night, be it from a sunken yacht or banging out of a jet- mute point.
Trimpot- 1, High Nr- 0
High Nr
Time to lay all that bitterness to rest old son, dust off the plaques and remember the good old days. Autohover all singing all dancing machines are what does the job now, and they have done a number of rescues that other machines can't do. civvy or military? who cares, value for money? you tell me the price you are prepared to pay if your wife, son, grandchild is floating in the ocean at night, be it from a sunken yacht or banging out of a jet- mute point.
High Nr
Time to lay all that bitterness to rest old son, dust off the plaques and remember the good old days. Autohover all singing all dancing machines are what does the job now, and they have done a number of rescues that other machines can't do. civvy or military? who cares, value for money? you tell me the price you are prepared to pay if your wife, son, grandchild is floating in the ocean at night, be it from a sunken yacht or banging out of a jet- mute point.
Trimpot- 1, High Nr- 0
High Nr
Time to lay all that bitterness to rest old son, dust off the plaques and remember the good old days. Autohover all singing all dancing machines are what does the job now, and they have done a number of rescues that other machines can't do. civvy or military? who cares, value for money? you tell me the price you are prepared to pay if your wife, son, grandchild is floating in the ocean at night, be it from a sunken yacht or banging out of a jet- mute point.
Trimpot- 1, High Nr- 0
High Nr
Time to lay all that bitterness to rest old son, dust off the plaques and remember the good old days. Autohover all singing all dancing machines are what does the job now, and they have done a number of rescues that other machines can't do. civvy or military? who cares, value for money? you tell me the price you are prepared to pay if your wife, son, grandchild is floating in the ocean at night, be it from a sunken yacht or banging out of a jet- mute point.