Police Helicopters - Automatic right of way? (Updated) The Law
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Outside CAS and ATZs wth ATC, the normal Rules of the Air apply and police aircraft have no special priority. ATC may ask someone else to keep clear, but the airspace is uncontrolled. If the situation was as suggested, then ATC did not have control of any aircraft OCAS.
In CAS, ATC operate levels of priority, known in the trade as Categories. AlanM ran through the gist. Because the movements of aircraft in CAS are controlled, it is possible for ATC to exercise their control to give priority to certain traffic.
Following a big incident, a TRA or similar may be invoked. Usually, the police ask for it, but CAA DAP grant the restriction and promulgate it via a NOTAM.
Police pilots are not police officers, but this is not because of any prohibition, but because police officers don't have the minimum flying experience required by the CAA. Some are employed by contractors and some directly employed by police forces as civilian staff. The pilots of police helicopters do not have powers of arrest, but the aircraft is being operated in the service of the police (obviously) and is (usually) tactically commanded by a police officer (observer) who has the normal powers of that office.
In CAS, ATC operate levels of priority, known in the trade as Categories. AlanM ran through the gist. Because the movements of aircraft in CAS are controlled, it is possible for ATC to exercise their control to give priority to certain traffic.
Following a big incident, a TRA or similar may be invoked. Usually, the police ask for it, but CAA DAP grant the restriction and promulgate it via a NOTAM.
Police pilots are not police officers, but this is not because of any prohibition, but because police officers don't have the minimum flying experience required by the CAA. Some are employed by contractors and some directly employed by police forces as civilian staff. The pilots of police helicopters do not have powers of arrest, but the aircraft is being operated in the service of the police (obviously) and is (usually) tactically commanded by a police officer (observer) who has the normal powers of that office.
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As a former police driver (in a non-standard capacity and non-standard environment - details withheld to protect the guilty 
) I was assured that, in the force for which I was working, I had powers of arrest whilst on operational duty.
I can also confirm the exemption from both the 500' and the 1500' rules. I recall one operation we carried out which gave cause to us (me and the boys in the back) wondering how a conversation in court might go:-
"Captain Stable, would you like to inform the court exactly why you were flying over the city at 200 feet above ground level?"
"Certainly - because I can
"
We also had the option of invoking the Official Secrets Act, the Defence of the Realm Act and a host of other stuff. CAA FOI's didn't like visiting us and inspecting the Discretion Reports because they all said "Due Operational Reasons" and nobody told them any more than that. I hate to see a grown CAA man cry...
) I was assured that, in the force for which I was working, I had powers of arrest whilst on operational duty.I can also confirm the exemption from both the 500' and the 1500' rules. I recall one operation we carried out which gave cause to us (me and the boys in the back) wondering how a conversation in court might go:-
"Captain Stable, would you like to inform the court exactly why you were flying over the city at 200 feet above ground level?"
"Certainly - because I can
"We also had the option of invoking the Official Secrets Act, the Defence of the Realm Act and a host of other stuff. CAA FOI's didn't like visiting us and inspecting the Discretion Reports because they all said "Due Operational Reasons" and nobody told them any more than that. I hate to see a grown CAA man cry...
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Going back to the original part of the question......
....surely the police have no real use of flight categories outside CAS.
After all - jump complete was outside CAS and not in an ATZ so therefore could have not spoken to anyone anyway - and no-one would have known!
I still think that the controller could have said what he wanted another way - but was probably a bit pi$sed off at you being near the extended centreline!
No police helicopter pilot I have ever met or worked has ever been arsey on the RT about such a thing.
....surely the police have no real use of flight categories outside CAS.
After all - jump complete was outside CAS and not in an ATZ so therefore could have not spoken to anyone anyway - and no-one would have known!
I still think that the controller could have said what he wanted another way - but was probably a bit pi$sed off at you being near the extended centreline!
No police helicopter pilot I have ever met or worked has ever been arsey on the RT about such a thing.
Captain Stable....the Lord does work in wondrous ways! Tell me you never giggled inside...or alllowed even a wee grin to escape!
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About a month ago Man United were playing at Old Trafford (think it was Real Madrid) and I was passing by working Manchester. It was about 1 hour before kick-off, and a TV helicopter was en-route to Old Trafford. He had a Non-Standard Flight number (how many of you know about that requirement, I must admit it was news to me, I should get out more..) so thought he was OK.
Air Traffic simply told him he couldn't go there, because the Police Heli was operating there, too bad for you Sir. The Pilot pointed out that he had an NSF no., still no joy. He tried a couple of various tacks, but ATC were having none of it, and basically just left him hanging out to dry, with nowhere to go. In the end they were ignoring his calls which were getting more pitiful by the minute .."but our customer has paid for the hour before kick off, I dont know what to do now...."
However, the Lancs Bizzies saved the day for our boy, saying that they were happy for Mr TV to operate above them provided they kept at 2000', which is where they wanted to be anyway.
So well done Mr. Plod (might even have been Mighty Gem??) and no marks to Manchester for a very intransigent attitude on this occasion.
Air Traffic simply told him he couldn't go there, because the Police Heli was operating there, too bad for you Sir. The Pilot pointed out that he had an NSF no., still no joy. He tried a couple of various tacks, but ATC were having none of it, and basically just left him hanging out to dry, with nowhere to go. In the end they were ignoring his calls which were getting more pitiful by the minute .."but our customer has paid for the hour before kick off, I dont know what to do now...."
However, the Lancs Bizzies saved the day for our boy, saying that they were happy for Mr TV to operate above them provided they kept at 2000', which is where they wanted to be anyway.
So well done Mr. Plod (might even have been Mighty Gem??) and no marks to Manchester for a very intransigent attitude on this occasion.
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Well don the plod!! Creep Creep!!
With regard to the NSF numbers..... In the LHR/LCY zones a NSF is always SUBJECT traffic loadings. As I said before, we had the same problem with the May Day protests in London. We could only safely accomodate a max of three helis. As they were all in the City zone which is Class D we could of just given traffic info. Indeed, the policeman was asking how many were in the zone etc and getting conerned and asked for no more if poss. Therefore a compromise between all could be reached, giving the news gatherers 20 mins each etc. However, I had a whinging BBC crew keep saying "But we are going live at 1803hrs - we must go back in the zone". Eventually another heli (G-OITN i think!) offered to pull out for 10 mins.
Now - I was luckily not busy for 5 mins and with lots of traffic info we achieved the task. MAYBE Manchester were really busy and this is all low priority stuff, so I can understand it if they were under the cosh.
Oh and for the record - I watched the news on my break and they DIDN'T go live to the helicopter. Gits!!
With regard to the NSF numbers..... In the LHR/LCY zones a NSF is always SUBJECT traffic loadings. As I said before, we had the same problem with the May Day protests in London. We could only safely accomodate a max of three helis. As they were all in the City zone which is Class D we could of just given traffic info. Indeed, the policeman was asking how many were in the zone etc and getting conerned and asked for no more if poss. Therefore a compromise between all could be reached, giving the news gatherers 20 mins each etc. However, I had a whinging BBC crew keep saying "But we are going live at 1803hrs - we must go back in the zone". Eventually another heli (G-OITN i think!) offered to pull out for 10 mins.
Now - I was luckily not busy for 5 mins and with lots of traffic info we achieved the task. MAYBE Manchester were really busy and this is all low priority stuff, so I can understand it if they were under the cosh.
Oh and for the record - I watched the news on my break and they DIDN'T go live to the helicopter. Gits!!
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stevie
on the radio atc are not allowed to discuss the operation of high priority aircraft on the rt with anybody including the pilot of such aircraft , in the case you talk of police 15
they do not have to inform us about thier operation at al but the crews are all switched on and understand the problems involved
therefore they very often will suggest a way around the situation that will not compromise thier ops
so before you dis my pals on approach try to get the full picture first
on the radio atc are not allowed to discuss the operation of high priority aircraft on the rt with anybody including the pilot of such aircraft , in the case you talk of police 15
they do not have to inform us about thier operation at al but the crews are all switched on and understand the problems involved
therefore they very often will suggest a way around the situation that will not compromise thier ops
so before you dis my pals on approach try to get the full picture first
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Mainecoon -
No offence intended to your pals in approach who generally do a great job - , BUT on this occasion I think they were somewhat lacking for two reasons :
1) The telly-heli had been provided with an NSF number, so ATC must have known what his intentions were - if not, then the system is sadly inadequate.
2) AlanM points out that the NSF authorisation is subject traffic loading. I dont think that two helicopters, both flown by professional crews, way off any approach / departure paths to MCR, could be considered high traffic density, do you?
Actually the posting was meant to be a pat on the back for Mr. Plod rather than a poke in the eye for Manch. But there you go, just another pilot-ATC misunderstanding, I guess!
No offence intended to your pals in approach who generally do a great job - , BUT on this occasion I think they were somewhat lacking for two reasons :
1) The telly-heli had been provided with an NSF number, so ATC must have known what his intentions were - if not, then the system is sadly inadequate.
2) AlanM points out that the NSF authorisation is subject traffic loading. I dont think that two helicopters, both flown by professional crews, way off any approach / departure paths to MCR, could be considered high traffic density, do you?
Actually the posting was meant to be a pat on the back for Mr. Plod rather than a poke in the eye for Manch. But there you go, just another pilot-ATC misunderstanding, I guess!
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take your point stevie but if they have priority ie class b or if the most serious class a the nsf number means nothing , the cops can do what they want without regard to air tradjic or anyone our hands are tied
and with respect the heli tele talking about how his clients have paid for the slot will become annoying when we can do nothing about it
thanks for the reply though the dialogue always helps
regrds
and with respect the heli tele talking about how his clients have paid for the slot will become annoying when we can do nothing about it
thanks for the reply though the dialogue always helps
regrds
Captain UnStable: I don't know who you are or where you are from because your profile is very scant. But,
You amaze me with your latest response:
If you thought you suddenly became 'James Bond' because you were a police pilot...they must have seen you coming
First of all, police pilots are never and will never be vested with special powers to arrest people whilst on operational duties
Secondly, if you flew 200' over a built up area in a police helo...you wouldn't want to be telling anyone, let alone pprune et al
[the minimum is 300', and only when absolutely necessary]
Third, if you genuinely believe there is some mystery surrounding 'discretion reports and the secrets act' then you really need to put your toys away and go outside to play!!!
Hopefully you have moved on now to some admin job in MI6 or somewhere
You amaze me with your latest response:
If you thought you suddenly became 'James Bond' because you were a police pilot...they must have seen you coming
First of all, police pilots are never and will never be vested with special powers to arrest people whilst on operational duties
Secondly, if you flew 200' over a built up area in a police helo...you wouldn't want to be telling anyone, let alone pprune et al
[the minimum is 300', and only when absolutely necessary]Third, if you genuinely believe there is some mystery surrounding 'discretion reports and the secrets act' then you really need to put your toys away and go outside to play!!!
Hopefully you have moved on now to some admin job in MI6 or somewhere
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whoateallthepies,
I think you are jumping to one or two unwarranted conclusions about Rule 17 of the Rules of the Air.
The exemptions for police ops are to allow a police aircraft to formate on another aircraft for police purposes, such as obtaining the aircraft registration for some reason. As with so many things about police ops, the exemption is found in the law, and the restrictions under which police pilots can use the exemption are in the PAOM (CAP 612). They don't amount to a general exemption from the Rules of the Air for police ops. If you think about it, it would be crazy to have any class of aircraft exempt from the Rules of the Air.
..... Which does not mean that when we are on task OCAS we wouldn't like you to choose to give us a wide berth, if you can. In a rather similar way to how most pilots would react to, for example, aircraft doing aerial photography.
I think you are jumping to one or two unwarranted conclusions about Rule 17 of the Rules of the Air.
The exemptions for police ops are to allow a police aircraft to formate on another aircraft for police purposes, such as obtaining the aircraft registration for some reason. As with so many things about police ops, the exemption is found in the law, and the restrictions under which police pilots can use the exemption are in the PAOM (CAP 612). They don't amount to a general exemption from the Rules of the Air for police ops. If you think about it, it would be crazy to have any class of aircraft exempt from the Rules of the Air.
..... Which does not mean that when we are on task OCAS we wouldn't like you to choose to give us a wide berth, if you can. In a rather similar way to how most pilots would react to, for example, aircraft doing aerial photography.
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A bit of useless info in the big scheme of things, but…
As I understand it, in Australia pilots have the powers of a “Senior Constable” (that was “constable”) as written in the ACT whilst in command of an aircraft. I’m not sure if this could be expanded to include an arrest over the airways, but officially you can “tie” up a passenger (open to SASless interpretation) if he/she was threatening you or your passengers in any way.
In the not so distant past, many police pilots in Victoria did the 18 week basic training that would otherwise allow them to be put out on the beat. They were given “freddies” (Badges and numbers etc) as a member of the police force. There job was to fly the aircraft. This has since changed.
Interesting read………
In the not so distant past, many police pilots in Victoria did the 18 week basic training that would otherwise allow them to be put out on the beat. They were given “freddies” (Badges and numbers etc) as a member of the police force. There job was to fly the aircraft. This has since changed.
Interesting read………
In NSW, the pilots are (or were) fully trained and uniformed flatfoots (flatfeet?) with all the powers of a regular copper. We all went through the Copper Refinery for the basic course - 3 months when I did it, now one year. But we didn't really use the powers of arrest, being parked behind the controls. Usually got a ground unit to make the arrest, kept us out of court and in the air. If we ever had to go to town in uniform, we hoped like crazy that we were never called upon to do something copperish.
In flight, we could declare police priority in controlled airspace, and on the highest level we could push jumbos out of the way. Never used that one myself, preferred to negotiate with ATC without pulling rank. By being nice about it, we usually got where we wanted to go.
As far as another aircraft demanding his "right of way" and blasting through a police operation OCTA, fortunately I never met anybody who was this big a d1ckhead. Somebody might be curious, and some choppers chartered by the press for photos will push the limits, but none that i heard of got completely in the way.
And trying to arrest another plane over the radio would be a real hoot. I think you would need a Huey gunship to have any credibility.
In flight, we could declare police priority in controlled airspace, and on the highest level we could push jumbos out of the way. Never used that one myself, preferred to negotiate with ATC without pulling rank. By being nice about it, we usually got where we wanted to go.
As far as another aircraft demanding his "right of way" and blasting through a police operation OCTA, fortunately I never met anybody who was this big a d1ckhead. Somebody might be curious, and some choppers chartered by the press for photos will push the limits, but none that i heard of got completely in the way.
And trying to arrest another plane over the radio would be a real hoot. I think you would need a Huey gunship to have any credibility.
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Police Helicoptors-automatic right of way?
Not knowing the full details of where & when - I am unable to give a reason as to why this happened. However, due to certain situations (again, not knowing the full facts of the incident the Police were attending), there can be inmplmented a "No Fly Zone".
These sorts of restrictions are normally in place for a major incident, a VIP movement or if it is believed that the presence of another aircraft will hinder the operation. As you can imagine, there are not that many times this "restriction" is used, but it has been known.
Hope this goes some way of clearing up the matter.
Mac
These sorts of restrictions are normally in place for a major incident, a VIP movement or if it is believed that the presence of another aircraft will hinder the operation. As you can imagine, there are not that many times this "restriction" is used, but it has been known.
Hope this goes some way of clearing up the matter.
Mac
Under certain circumstances, the police can invoke (only through consultation with the Rescue Co-ord Centre (RCC)at Kinloss) either a:
Temporary Danger Area, or a Temporary restricted flying area around a crash scene etc.
This is done to minimise aeriel deconfliction while the job in hand can be dealt with.
Common sense...I would have thought?
Temporary Danger Area, or a Temporary restricted flying area around a crash scene etc.
This is done to minimise aeriel deconfliction while the job in hand can be dealt with.
Common sense...I would have thought?
Iconoclast
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Police Helicoptors-automatic right of way?
To those of you that are of the Police Pilot persuasion in the UK and Oz it seems that you operate under a set of rigid and fixed rules when it comes to having the right of way. Most of you would probably hurl your lunch if you ever got involved in a police freeway chase in Los Angeles. You could have police helicopters from different jurisdictions along with state police helicopters and as many as ten or more news ENG helos following the same action. Everybody jockeying for position much like the National Air races but for helicopters.
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What Limits
Military aircraft are not exempt from Rules of the Air.
They are exempt from certain elements of the Air Navigation Order, so long as they are flying in accordance with Military Flying Regulations, which contain basic rights-of-way rules identical to the civilian ones.
The only big difference is the so-called '500ft rule', which is replaced by several hundred pages of military low-flying regulations.
Military aircraft are not exempt from Rules of the Air.
They are exempt from certain elements of the Air Navigation Order, so long as they are flying in accordance with Military Flying Regulations, which contain basic rights-of-way rules identical to the civilian ones.
The only big difference is the so-called '500ft rule', which is replaced by several hundred pages of military low-flying regulations.