Illegal Landing? (or 'Much Ado About Nothing' ?)
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Illegal Landing?
Yesterday I watched a 109 Power land here, it was 20 metres from the beach with tourists on, to the left was a restaurant which was open and in front of it was a hotel. The pilot actually put down in the car park of the hotel (with cars in it). LZ approx. 400 square metres (20m X 20m). I´m told the customer was a German (D- reg 109) with too much money! Just how many rules did he break?
You should have spoken to the pilot first. Judged his/her response and decided whether they had appreciated a debrief from yourself re - the rules, if they didn't I would then report them to the CAA.
I'm ready..........Flak jacket on.
I'm ready..........Flak jacket on.
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Martin1234, it doesnt matter if it was a R22 or a Chinook it was just the fact they did it. One day it could roll over or some idiot run through the tail rotor and yet again it would all our fault.´ And YES I do care when someone does something like that...
Training Risky, the flying I´ve done out here was always on the 500ft rule.
Training Risky, the flying I´ve done out here was always on the 500ft rule.
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How do you know he didn't have permission from hotel etc.
How do you reconcile Medivacs landing in London Streets & parks.
Anything can look dangerous from a distance but if the landing was under control, as has been said, "who cares" - I sense a little pang of envy....
How do you reconcile Medivacs landing in London Streets & parks.
Anything can look dangerous from a distance but if the landing was under control, as has been said, "who cares" - I sense a little pang of envy....
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jonnyg
I'm only guessing, but perhaps it was your "I'm told the customer was a German (D- reg 109) with too much money!" comment which gave Martin1234 (and now Vizsla) the impression the green eyed monster was about.
"Just how many rules did he break?"
You're the one who suggests it was an 'illegal' - you tell us. What is/are the relevant Spanish law(s)? [Your profile doesn't say if your PPL is UK or Spanish but, as you fly in Mallorca, I assume you can help us with the Spanish rules/regs.]
Based on your experience, what was it about the landing which you consider was dangerous?
I'm only guessing, but perhaps it was your "I'm told the customer was a German (D- reg 109) with too much money!" comment which gave Martin1234 (and now Vizsla) the impression the green eyed monster was about.
"Just how many rules did he break?"
You're the one who suggests it was an 'illegal' - you tell us. What is/are the relevant Spanish law(s)? [Your profile doesn't say if your PPL is UK or Spanish but, as you fly in Mallorca, I assume you can help us with the Spanish rules/regs.]
Based on your experience, what was it about the landing which you consider was dangerous?
Last edited by Heliport; 3rd May 2003 at 01:27.
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jonnyg
In the UK, the 500' rule doesn't apply to aircraft landing (or taking off) or, as BTT says, we'd all be in trouble. If Spanish law is the same, the A109 pilot didn't break the 500' rule.
You say the flying you've done in Mallorca has always been "on the 500ft rule." Even if your PPL is UK issue, I assume you know the equivalent Spanish rule. What is it?
In the UK, the 500' rule doesn't apply to aircraft landing (or taking off) or, as BTT says, we'd all be in trouble. If Spanish law is the same, the A109 pilot didn't break the 500' rule.
You say the flying you've done in Mallorca has always been "on the 500ft rule." Even if your PPL is UK issue, I assume you know the equivalent Spanish rule. What is it?
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Quite possibly the landing was quite legal, with the owner’s approval of course.
However, now we come into that grey area of "airmanship" the blanket rule when there is no rule. Sounds to me like his "airmanship" may have been a little questionable.
He got the job done, and now can make 1/2 a payment on his machine but in the mean time, does a great disservice to the industry and generally pisses people off, all so as 'rich German' can have lunch. Those pissed off people are the same ones who remember that elitist event with sand in their eyes' and lobby to close the local helipad.
Now an EMS machine picking up a half drowned punter from that car park is a whole different event.
However, now we come into that grey area of "airmanship" the blanket rule when there is no rule. Sounds to me like his "airmanship" may have been a little questionable.
He got the job done, and now can make 1/2 a payment on his machine but in the mean time, does a great disservice to the industry and generally pisses people off, all so as 'rich German' can have lunch. Those pissed off people are the same ones who remember that elitist event with sand in their eyes' and lobby to close the local helipad.
Now an EMS machine picking up a half drowned punter from that car park is a whole different event.
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Here is a situation where I believe that the fingeres hit the keyboard before the brain was put in gear.
500' rule applies to avoidance of people, property animals etc and obviously does not apply to landing and taking off.
Place of landing is the responsibility of several persons. Firstly the pilot, then the owner of the property, police, aviation authority, controllers of the local bylaws, neighbours, fire and ambulance services and several more.
Reason for landing. Was your appraisal for the reason correct. Just looking is unfair and inaccurate. You ought to enquire.
I have had a couple of low flying complaints against me which is not only time consuming but places one under a guilty banner even before official enquires are complete. On both occasions the reporters were not only inaccurate in their assumptions they were quite vindictive in the way they reported the incidents.
The CAA have the duty to investigate incidents and its often only following detailed investigations, costing vast sums, that the truth is exposed.
So please be careful when you accuse someone of something when either you are really not in a knowledgeable position or do not have all the facts.
Journalist like to sensationalise for reward. The absense of proper reporting can injure inocent parties.
500' rule applies to avoidance of people, property animals etc and obviously does not apply to landing and taking off.
Place of landing is the responsibility of several persons. Firstly the pilot, then the owner of the property, police, aviation authority, controllers of the local bylaws, neighbours, fire and ambulance services and several more.
Reason for landing. Was your appraisal for the reason correct. Just looking is unfair and inaccurate. You ought to enquire.
I have had a couple of low flying complaints against me which is not only time consuming but places one under a guilty banner even before official enquires are complete. On both occasions the reporters were not only inaccurate in their assumptions they were quite vindictive in the way they reported the incidents.
The CAA have the duty to investigate incidents and its often only following detailed investigations, costing vast sums, that the truth is exposed.
So please be careful when you accuse someone of something when either you are really not in a knowledgeable position or do not have all the facts.
Journalist like to sensationalise for reward. The absense of proper reporting can injure inocent parties.
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" .......... fingers hit the keyboard before the brain was put in gear.
Couldn't agree more. 
"So please be careful when you accuse someone of something when either you are really not in a knowledgeable position or do not have all the facts."
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How do you reconcile Medivacs landing in London Streets & parks.
I'm curious, Just what permissions does a helicopter pilot have to get to land somewhere like a park or hotel car park?
Is it just the permission of the person running the place or do the CAA have to be in the loop somewhere?
Thanks,
Gary.
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Gary,
The short (but not very helpful) answer to your question is that it all depends...............
[All this relates to the UK]
Trying to be a bit more helpful but only summarising what is a minefield.............
1. Most landings require the landowners' permission BUT HEMS and police flying has special exemptions/permissions that allow them to land without specific permission of the landowner.
2. In general, a landing inside a congested area (not at a licensed field) needs to have specific permission from the CAA (cos otherwise it represents a breach of Rule 5 of the Rules of the Air). HOWEVER, there are a series of exemptions to this- police and HEMS can land without CAA specific permission, so long as they operate in accordance with set down procedures and limits (recorded in detail in Operations manuals etc.) In addtion, some commercial operators have a general permission to make such landings, that are controlled and recorded in a broadly similar way to those of the police/HEMS. They have to have a special section added to their Ops Manual that sets all these things down. You get this if you are trusted and experienced in such things.(These all apply only to multi-engine helicopters)
I'm getting bored now, but that is the general gist........
OH yes! Nearly forgot - the important thing is that whatever special rule applies the basic rule (Rule 5 again) that single engine failure should not put persons or proeprty at risk on the ground still applies, so it all has to be Group A/Category 1 etc. etc.
The short (but not very helpful) answer to your question is that it all depends...............
[All this relates to the UK]
Trying to be a bit more helpful but only summarising what is a minefield.............
1. Most landings require the landowners' permission BUT HEMS and police flying has special exemptions/permissions that allow them to land without specific permission of the landowner.
2. In general, a landing inside a congested area (not at a licensed field) needs to have specific permission from the CAA (cos otherwise it represents a breach of Rule 5 of the Rules of the Air). HOWEVER, there are a series of exemptions to this- police and HEMS can land without CAA specific permission, so long as they operate in accordance with set down procedures and limits (recorded in detail in Operations manuals etc.) In addtion, some commercial operators have a general permission to make such landings, that are controlled and recorded in a broadly similar way to those of the police/HEMS. They have to have a special section added to their Ops Manual that sets all these things down. You get this if you are trusted and experienced in such things.(These all apply only to multi-engine helicopters)
I'm getting bored now, but that is the general gist........
OH yes! Nearly forgot - the important thing is that whatever special rule applies the basic rule (Rule 5 again) that single engine failure should not put persons or proeprty at risk on the ground still applies, so it all has to be Group A/Category 1 etc. etc.
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Cheers Helinut,
I was aware that you MUST have a multi-engined helicopter for London over-flights and I've had the pleasure of seeing G-HEMS land in some interesting places as well.... Always prefered the Dauphin to whatever it is they are using today!
Another question!
Do you know of any web sites/books that talk about helicopter operations over London or other big cities?
Thanks!
Gary.
I was aware that you MUST have a multi-engined helicopter for London over-flights and I've had the pleasure of seeing G-HEMS land in some interesting places as well.... Always prefered the Dauphin to whatever it is they are using today!
Another question!
Do you know of any web sites/books that talk about helicopter operations over London or other big cities?
Thanks!
Gary.
Conversely, CASA let pretty much alone down here, and pilot assessment suffices for landings whether in the bush or in a city. CAAP 92.2 gives advisory on what would be expected, especially if something ends in tears and the pilot has to justify his assessment 
Bigger problem is local laws, and council approvals (if required). Landowner's permission is needed, of course, but some local councils also have restrictions or bans on what they will allow in their shire. Even the interpretation of what consists a helipad or a heliport, more money for the legal eagles to argue over, unfortunately. Sydney, NSW, is a minefield, since the State EPA are rabidly anti helicopter, and require months of work to consider a helipad, plus oodles of $$.
Victoria is still easier, and it pays to be nice to the right people, and operate with a degree of "neighbour-friendliness". Even though they don't have to give permission, a polite call to CASA to let them know when something unusual is planned works wonders, same with the local coppers. If they're in the loop, they can stop whingers before they run to the media and blow things out of proportion!
Bigger problem is local laws, and council approvals (if required). Landowner's permission is needed, of course, but some local councils also have restrictions or bans on what they will allow in their shire. Even the interpretation of what consists a helipad or a heliport, more money for the legal eagles to argue over, unfortunately. Sydney, NSW, is a minefield, since the State EPA are rabidly anti helicopter, and require months of work to consider a helipad, plus oodles of $$.
Victoria is still easier, and it pays to be nice to the right people, and operate with a degree of "neighbour-friendliness". Even though they don't have to give permission, a polite call to CASA to let them know when something unusual is planned works wonders, same with the local coppers. If they're in the loop, they can stop whingers before they run to the media and blow things out of proportion!
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If he was in Oz..............
Perhaps the guy owned the place................then he could come and go as he saw fit...............what are those cars doing in my Helipad he may ask??
And 20 x 20 is oddles of room.!!!!
The local councils with their "Planning Permits" are the most restrictive......normally limiting the frequency of arriving and departing aircraft to XX / day.
And 20 x 20 is oddles of room.!!!!
The local councils with their "Planning Permits" are the most restrictive......normally limiting the frequency of arriving and departing aircraft to XX / day.