Illegal Landing? (or 'Much Ado About Nothing' ?)
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So now TC is asking what the Spanish rules are?
Good question!
Shame he didn't think of it before. At the beginning of the thread he was all for reporting the German 109 pilot to the CAA!!
We start off with some knowall PPL saying the 109 pilot did an illegal landing but then when he's asked to substantiate his allegation he can't and disappears.
TC says the PPL should have 'debriefed' the pilot and if he wasn't satisfied with the explanation, "I would then report them to the CAA."
I can see it now. "Excuse me, I'm a helicopter pilot. I've got a PPL. I fly R22s. I want to debrief you about that landing you've just done." Wonder what the Spanish (or German) is for 'P*ss Off!'
Some heli pilots are far keen on condemning other pilots. Even if the 109 guy was pushing his luck, so what? No harm was done.
Reporting other pilots sucks.
PS
JonnyG has already been asked to tell us the Spanish rules. All he could manage was that he always flies "on the 500ft rule" which has got naff all to do with landing or taking off.
Perhaps he's still looking it up.
Good question!
Shame he didn't think of it before. At the beginning of the thread he was all for reporting the German 109 pilot to the CAA!!
We start off with some knowall PPL saying the 109 pilot did an illegal landing but then when he's asked to substantiate his allegation he can't and disappears.
TC says the PPL should have 'debriefed' the pilot and if he wasn't satisfied with the explanation, "I would then report them to the CAA."
I can see it now. "Excuse me, I'm a helicopter pilot. I've got a PPL. I fly R22s. I want to debrief you about that landing you've just done." Wonder what the Spanish (or German) is for 'P*ss Off!'
Some heli pilots are far keen on condemning other pilots. Even if the 109 guy was pushing his luck, so what? No harm was done.
Reporting other pilots sucks.
PS
JonnyG has already been asked to tell us the Spanish rules. All he could manage was that he always flies "on the 500ft rule" which has got naff all to do with landing or taking off.
Perhaps he's still looking it up.
Hoverman: get out of bed the wrong side today, eh? I realised it was Spain fairly early on, but forgot to edit my post....sorry about that, my lord.
If someone holds a PPL surely you must recognise this as atleast the first professional rung on the flying ladder, no? Don't make them out to be stupid, they know a little about helos.
If I was in the vicinity and witnessed a large(ish) helo like the 109, land in amongst some cars in a car park and "felt" it to be 'without due consideration' / 'ignorant of its surroundings' / crass stupidity'....then I would most certainly speak to the driver, as I would any driver of any machine which might cause damage/injury to bypassers due to an irresponsible attitude. You don't need to know the 'rules' to action that.
If the observer witnessing the activity knew a lot more about the rules and felt that these had been infringed, then I would
(a) talk to the driver first - politely, to determine his/her motives, and,
(b) based on their response, leave it there or report them to the aviation authorities - no qualms whatsoever.
We've discussed this 'snitching' episode before so let's not go over it all again.
The rules are the rules...someone breaks them (to the detriment of innocent bypassers)...."book 'em danno"
If someone holds a PPL surely you must recognise this as atleast the first professional rung on the flying ladder, no? Don't make them out to be stupid, they know a little about helos.
If I was in the vicinity and witnessed a large(ish) helo like the 109, land in amongst some cars in a car park and "felt" it to be 'without due consideration' / 'ignorant of its surroundings' / crass stupidity'....then I would most certainly speak to the driver, as I would any driver of any machine which might cause damage/injury to bypassers due to an irresponsible attitude. You don't need to know the 'rules' to action that.
If the observer witnessing the activity knew a lot more about the rules and felt that these had been infringed, then I would
(a) talk to the driver first - politely, to determine his/her motives, and,
(b) based on their response, leave it there or report them to the aviation authorities - no qualms whatsoever.
We've discussed this 'snitching' episode before so let's not go over it all again.
The rules are the rules...someone breaks them (to the detriment of innocent bypassers)...."book 'em danno"
Senis Semper Fidelis
Join Date: Feb 2001
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I have regularly used the fine services of a local hotel, who have had the foresight to have a well marked and drained LZ for Helicopters, permission is of the blanket type in that a top up mob call is all that is needed, the landing area is roughly 100 x 50 yds and in past months I have seen as many as five helis from R22's to A109's parked there, the Hotel is a further 50 yds from the nearest rotortip and the enormous car park is again about 50 yds from the nearest Rotortip, it creates a lot of interest to the Hotel guests and staff alike when the urgent beat of a landing chopper is heard, it looks and feels as safe as house's , but looking on the Black side of things a loose blade or Blades may turn this into some one's idea of being to close to people who may be stood watching, oh and its about 100 yards from one of our local A roads.
Many Regards,
Peter R-B
Many Regards,
Peter R-B
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This thread is interesting because of the assumptions made about the 500' rule - and the implication that we all fly to the same rules:
All States' regulations take consideration of ICAO Annex 2 - Rules of the Air, which briefly, for VFR, state that "except when necessary for take-off and landing, or except by permission from the appropriate authority, a VFR flight shall not be flown...at a height less than 500ft above the ground or water."
OK how does that play in regulations:
Well in the UK, aside from the recent proposed changes to the ANO, 'the bubble' posted by Jonnyg (not quite in compliance is it?). Generally elsewhere in Europe, the rule is applied as written.
My limited knowledge of CARs indicates that Canada has a similar ' bubble' rule.
What about the main player - the US. Well from memory FAR 91.119(c) has a modified rule with 'the bubble'. However in FAR 91.119(d), the helicopter is given the right to ingnore (c) above if flown without hazard... (also not in compliance with ICAO - except if you consider this to be 'with permission from the appropriate authority').
More difficult to understand is the application of the other part of this Standard "...over the congested areas of cities, towns or settlements...1000 ft above the highest obstacle within a radius of 600 m from the aircraft" - which the US, also in FAR 91.119(d), gives the helicopter the right to ignore - if flown without hazard. (It should be made clear however that FAR 135.203(b) does restrict this city overflight to 300' above the surface.)
Even less clear than it seemed at first sight - at least in the US it's left to us helicopter pilots to act responsibly!
All States' regulations take consideration of ICAO Annex 2 - Rules of the Air, which briefly, for VFR, state that "except when necessary for take-off and landing, or except by permission from the appropriate authority, a VFR flight shall not be flown...at a height less than 500ft above the ground or water."
OK how does that play in regulations:
Well in the UK, aside from the recent proposed changes to the ANO, 'the bubble' posted by Jonnyg (not quite in compliance is it?). Generally elsewhere in Europe, the rule is applied as written.
My limited knowledge of CARs indicates that Canada has a similar ' bubble' rule.
What about the main player - the US. Well from memory FAR 91.119(c) has a modified rule with 'the bubble'. However in FAR 91.119(d), the helicopter is given the right to ingnore (c) above if flown without hazard... (also not in compliance with ICAO - except if you consider this to be 'with permission from the appropriate authority').
More difficult to understand is the application of the other part of this Standard "...over the congested areas of cities, towns or settlements...1000 ft above the highest obstacle within a radius of 600 m from the aircraft" - which the US, also in FAR 91.119(d), gives the helicopter the right to ignore - if flown without hazard. (It should be made clear however that FAR 135.203(b) does restrict this city overflight to 300' above the surface.)
Even less clear than it seemed at first sight - at least in the US it's left to us helicopter pilots to act responsibly!
Join Date: Feb 2003
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Spanish rules
Rules in Spain are the same as the UK. You need the landowner's permission - that's it. Of course good airmanship/common sense rules also apply, but we'd all have to have been there to pass judgement on that one.
Also in Spain, Rule 5 - the 500ft rule - does not apply to helicopter take off and landings.
Had this occurred in the UK, the 'congested area' part of Rule 5(1)(c)(i) of the UK's ANO might arguably apply, however. The only take-off/landing exception available there applies to licensed aerodromes, I believe.
Wherever you are, in my experience the ultimate answer is to tell someone what you intend doing beforehand. That way you can at least say you notified relevant interested groups/the authorities. In Spain, this translates into little more than a phone call to the local ATC supervisor, and/or the local police. Both can be very helpful.
The police or even the Civil Guard will as likely turn up and cordon off the said car park for you, just for the exercise. You, of course, then take the time to stand and chat, show them the machine, swap phone numbers and stay in touch for future cooperation. You'll then be able to land in that hotel carpark anytime you like. Simple.
So, to re-cap...
Even assuming none of the above was done this Spanish landing was still legal, therefore. More likely, some or all of it was done, and everyone was even happier.
All except the bloke who started this thread, that is!
Oh, I'm bored now. Excuse me while I go and sit on the beach looking for German funded 109's
Also in Spain, Rule 5 - the 500ft rule - does not apply to helicopter take off and landings.
Had this occurred in the UK, the 'congested area' part of Rule 5(1)(c)(i) of the UK's ANO might arguably apply, however. The only take-off/landing exception available there applies to licensed aerodromes, I believe.
Wherever you are, in my experience the ultimate answer is to tell someone what you intend doing beforehand. That way you can at least say you notified relevant interested groups/the authorities. In Spain, this translates into little more than a phone call to the local ATC supervisor, and/or the local police. Both can be very helpful.
The police or even the Civil Guard will as likely turn up and cordon off the said car park for you, just for the exercise. You, of course, then take the time to stand and chat, show them the machine, swap phone numbers and stay in touch for future cooperation. You'll then be able to land in that hotel carpark anytime you like. Simple.
So, to re-cap...
Even assuming none of the above was done this Spanish landing was still legal, therefore. More likely, some or all of it was done, and everyone was even happier.
All except the bloke who started this thread, that is!
Oh, I'm bored now. Excuse me while I go and sit on the beach looking for German funded 109's
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Just to add my tuppence worth: The 109 was German registered, I know the company and the aircraft but I don't know who was fly ing it at the time. Out of interest the rules here in Germany are fairly simple ( very strange for Germany I might add!). To land outside a designated helipad or airfield you have to;
a) be a commercial pilot
b) the landing area in not specified in size but must be "safe" at the discretion of the pilot in command. For pleasure flights, at a local fair or such, it must be 30x30 meters.
c) if within a town/ city boundary, permission from the local authority must be obtained
d) permission from the land owner must be obtained
e) if the company or owner of the aircraft has a "general off field landing permission"( Generelle Aussenlandegenehmigung) granted by the state authority, you can land where the hell you like without endangering people or property (common sense). They are very funny about flying over cars though!
I don't know what the Spanish rules are, but as posted earlier, methinks they are not that different.
Always try to remember, the next job you do might call for a tight landing somewhere which YOU think is ok from up there in your nice quiet ANR headsetted helicopter but someone down there might not think the same as you do at that moment so don't be too quick to condemn either side.
a) be a commercial pilot
b) the landing area in not specified in size but must be "safe" at the discretion of the pilot in command. For pleasure flights, at a local fair or such, it must be 30x30 meters.
c) if within a town/ city boundary, permission from the local authority must be obtained
d) permission from the land owner must be obtained
e) if the company or owner of the aircraft has a "general off field landing permission"( Generelle Aussenlandegenehmigung) granted by the state authority, you can land where the hell you like without endangering people or property (common sense). They are very funny about flying over cars though!
I don't know what the Spanish rules are, but as posted earlier, methinks they are not that different.
Always try to remember, the next job you do might call for a tight landing somewhere which YOU think is ok from up there in your nice quiet ANR headsetted helicopter but someone down there might not think the same as you do at that moment so don't be too quick to condemn either side.
