Gazelle crash
Great to hear that the unfortunate pilot is OK!
Knew this thread would elicit such a reaction from the 'I've been flying them for years and I'm only 17' to the 'oooh best stay away from sporty turbine types'..........
Speculation is best left to the panel of ex-defence experts discussing when would be the best moment to invade Iraq!!
Pilot could easily have been worse off he he crashed in any other type!
Knew this thread would elicit such a reaction from the 'I've been flying them for years and I'm only 17' to the 'oooh best stay away from sporty turbine types'..........
Speculation is best left to the panel of ex-defence experts discussing when would be the best moment to invade Iraq!!
Pilot could easily have been worse off he he crashed in any other type!
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aytoo
Me too, but not 3500 just 500 or so.
Crab
I don't think we want to open the R22 debate again but suffice to say, I trained on a Bell 47. Never been in an R22 and don't want to go in one thanks, I'm too old for unnecessary adrenaline rushes!
Brother
Me too, but not 3500 just 500 or so.
Crab
I don't think we want to open the R22 debate again but suffice to say, I trained on a Bell 47. Never been in an R22 and don't want to go in one thanks, I'm too old for unnecessary adrenaline rushes!
Brother
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707 - the reg was G-BZDW, an ex MW machine. I believe the one which has been active around SEN recently is G-CBSK, an LHC machine.
Which reminds me... seems like a goodly number of the LHC batch of 12 (actually owned by JCM Disposals Ltd) at Redhill has recently "gone".. where to..?
Which reminds me... seems like a goodly number of the LHC batch of 12 (actually owned by JCM Disposals Ltd) at Redhill has recently "gone".. where to..?
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G-BZDW was a Gazelle HT3, Ex military and was registered as ZB 626. She certainly served at Shawbury and there will be many readers of this forum with that registration in their logbooks. I believe that it was reported as a post 'heavy landing' fire that destroyed her.
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I've heard the same Max.
Seems the poor chap misjudged the approach, left it a tad late pulling in the collective, made a hole in the ground and the rest as they say is history. He was unlucky, didn't get away with it and he's learnt a lesson the hard (and expensive) way. I feel sorry for him and hope he's flying again soon.
Can't understand Brother's question "whether any of you would have put your family members in this helicopter with this pilot, knowing and being educated to the fact that the Gazelle, in certain phases, can bite hard." What do you mean "with this pilot"? I don't know anything about him, do you? He made a mistake on this instance. What does that prove?
Seems the poor chap misjudged the approach, left it a tad late pulling in the collective, made a hole in the ground and the rest as they say is history. He was unlucky, didn't get away with it and he's learnt a lesson the hard (and expensive) way. I feel sorry for him and hope he's flying again soon.
Can't understand Brother's question "whether any of you would have put your family members in this helicopter with this pilot, knowing and being educated to the fact that the Gazelle, in certain phases, can bite hard." What do you mean "with this pilot"? I don't know anything about him, do you? He made a mistake on this instance. What does that prove?
PPRuNe Enigma
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HM - given that Brother is perfectly prepared to slag off a helicopter he has never flown (R22) then I don't think it's supposed to prove anything except perhaps a rather judgemental and prejudiced attitude.
Avoid imitations
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I concur, ZB626 was an RAF HT3. I first flew it at CFS(H) Shawbury in February 1984.
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Well, I'm not disposed to ranting normally, but I do get *very* irritated by the Professional/Private debate!
I have more hours (on 10 types) than a lot of commercial pilots I've known, and I'm not one. I've been complimented by many of them on my flying and attitude. (Right on the nail there, Nr Fairy!).
I've also seen quite a few "professional" pilots who I WOULDN'T entrust my loved ones to, and many PPL's who I WOULD.
How on earth can someone make a snap judgement about a pilot's ability just becaue he stuffed up a landing? Many do. Many get away with it. High-time, low-time, attitude, commercial or private doesn't come into it. Every time we take off, there's a chance this might happen. (Forget that fact, and it probably will, too!).
Would those who have commended MY flying suddenly turn and imtimate that I'm a bad pilot and say "I wouldn't fly with him!" if I did this? One day I may very well stuff up a landing. I'm proud of my flying, and I judge myself harshly. The day I'm not, is the day I'll consider giving it up.
Can't comment on the Gazelle debate, as I've never flown one (Flying Lawyer - you did invite me once, thanks - still up for it one day!).
Nevertheless, I'd suggest that until you're experienced in flying one, don't comment in that way. As far as I'm concerned, I've never yet encountered a type that doesn't have some psychopathic trait hidden away somewhere. It's a case of researching it, understanding it, being trained in handling it and remaining vigilant at all times for it.
Wow, a rant from me? It's a bit (lot) out of character. Maybe I haven't been near a woman for too long! (Or maybe the 2-month flying gap's getting to me!). Time for a cold shower, and a flight at the weekend - maybe I'll be myself again!
Holy_Copter
I have more hours (on 10 types) than a lot of commercial pilots I've known, and I'm not one. I've been complimented by many of them on my flying and attitude. (Right on the nail there, Nr Fairy!).
I've also seen quite a few "professional" pilots who I WOULDN'T entrust my loved ones to, and many PPL's who I WOULD.
How on earth can someone make a snap judgement about a pilot's ability just becaue he stuffed up a landing? Many do. Many get away with it. High-time, low-time, attitude, commercial or private doesn't come into it. Every time we take off, there's a chance this might happen. (Forget that fact, and it probably will, too!).
Would those who have commended MY flying suddenly turn and imtimate that I'm a bad pilot and say "I wouldn't fly with him!" if I did this? One day I may very well stuff up a landing. I'm proud of my flying, and I judge myself harshly. The day I'm not, is the day I'll consider giving it up.
Can't comment on the Gazelle debate, as I've never flown one (Flying Lawyer - you did invite me once, thanks - still up for it one day!).
Nevertheless, I'd suggest that until you're experienced in flying one, don't comment in that way. As far as I'm concerned, I've never yet encountered a type that doesn't have some psychopathic trait hidden away somewhere. It's a case of researching it, understanding it, being trained in handling it and remaining vigilant at all times for it.
Wow, a rant from me? It's a bit (lot) out of character. Maybe I haven't been near a woman for too long! (Or maybe the 2-month flying gap's getting to me!). Time for a cold shower, and a flight at the weekend - maybe I'll be myself again!
Holy_Copter
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Don't think you should get too excited Holly_Copter. The comment about private pilots hasn't had the support of other pro's here. I'd expect the average pro to have better skills than the average private pilot, but we all know there are exceptions on both sides.
I've never noticed a pro/ppl divide on this forum. I think that's a tribute to the pro's for not being condescending about ppls and a tribute to the quality of the ppls who post here. Maybe best to let the comment go instead of risking causing a divide that doesn't exist?
I've never noticed a pro/ppl divide on this forum. I think that's a tribute to the pro's for not being condescending about ppls and a tribute to the quality of the ppls who post here. Maybe best to let the comment go instead of risking causing a divide that doesn't exist?
The gazelle robust and stands up well to impact damage? Having seen a few revert to kit form, I think not. What it does do well is absorb the impact as it disintigrates.
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Gazelle incident
I am pleased the two are safe and unharmed.
Is this the second or third ex-military Gazelle coming to grief?
If this trend continues someone, somewhere (CAA?) will step in and place restrictions. They will be forced to?
I own a Gazelle and can report that it is a superb machine but I have experienced 'the bite' refered to by another correspondent. I love it, think is is an outstanding aircraft and now don't fly anything other rotary as I have the best. But bite it has, especially for the unwary during the early days until you are flying in front of it.
Remember, at Midlle Wallop, most started on the Gazelle (?) and, in the early training had half a mile of flat ground in any direction and a good instructor with plenty of authority/power next to them. They didn't start on machine with the rotors going round 'the wrong way'. The young trainee pilots, keen and fast in reaction, weren't commercial customers. Indeed they faced the chop if they didn't/couldn't perform to minimum standards.
There is no such thing as cheap turbine helicopter flying. The machines at less then £200K are cheap, but, in my humble opinion, the type training at 5 hours (?) will not work for all pilots and should be considered an absolute minimum.
Sellers and buyers beware.
Especially Gazelle Owning Groups where the odds of a mishap must increase. All members must achieve high standards, know the rules, follow them and keep in practice.
Is this the second or third ex-military Gazelle coming to grief?
If this trend continues someone, somewhere (CAA?) will step in and place restrictions. They will be forced to?
I own a Gazelle and can report that it is a superb machine but I have experienced 'the bite' refered to by another correspondent. I love it, think is is an outstanding aircraft and now don't fly anything other rotary as I have the best. But bite it has, especially for the unwary during the early days until you are flying in front of it.
Remember, at Midlle Wallop, most started on the Gazelle (?) and, in the early training had half a mile of flat ground in any direction and a good instructor with plenty of authority/power next to them. They didn't start on machine with the rotors going round 'the wrong way'. The young trainee pilots, keen and fast in reaction, weren't commercial customers. Indeed they faced the chop if they didn't/couldn't perform to minimum standards.
There is no such thing as cheap turbine helicopter flying. The machines at less then £200K are cheap, but, in my humble opinion, the type training at 5 hours (?) will not work for all pilots and should be considered an absolute minimum.
Sellers and buyers beware.
Especially Gazelle Owning Groups where the odds of a mishap must increase. All members must achieve high standards, know the rules, follow them and keep in practice.
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CAP479 the World Aircraft Accident Summary list six other UK registered Gazelle accidents since 1990:- G-RIFF 7/3/90, G-HAVA 28/7/97, G-BCHM 5/7/97, G-PYOB 30/6/99, G-BXZE 3/9/01 and G-BZOS 14/7/02. Of these, two seem to have been, broadly, mechanical failure, the rest all look like loss of yaw control.
Holly.....assuming cool weather, low density altitude, etc.....no hostile indigenous personnel in the area.....daylight....crashing yer birdie to the point of seeing it destroyed by fire resulting from the landing technique.....well....actually that is not much of a recommendation but rather becomes a commentary upon a guy's ability, skill, and judgement. I know even monkeys can fall out of trees sometimes....but this event certainly evokes some fair criticism of the event. I support yer point about "Private vs Professional" and see that usual argument pointless having seen many "Professionally" operated aircraft scattered about over a very large area greater than the dimensions quoted in the Pilot's Flight Manual.
I do see the Five Hour checkout concept as being a bit short of what an inexperienced pilot might need to provide the actual time to waltz around the edges of the published performance envelope of a particular machine. No slam on groups of pilots but more a suggestion that mere hours and licenses do not define "experience" . It is the "experience" gained within those hours that counts. I would no more ride in the rear of an aircraft piloted by some of our most experienced "offshore" pilots for a mountain landing operation for example than I would let a crop sprayer take me out for a night winching op. Each would be out of his element. The conversion process should expose the learning pilot to the full performance parameters and peculiarities of the aircraft he is being transitioned onto.....or the training is incomplete and leaves the door open for such events as we read about.
I just finished a five hour factory course on an aircraft I used to instruct in.....and was exposed to a a unique tendency of this particular style of birdie that has led to some rather ugly outcomes.....and learned the correct method of countering that bit of "gotcha". Excellent training directed to all the necessary issues and given by a very knowledgeable instructor.....and will probably save my skin sometime in the future.
Instead of imposing restrictions as suggested by someone....the CAA might want to send some of its renown experts around to consult with the folks doing the training and ensure this interesting "butt biting" aspect of the Whistling Pig gets adequate treatment during conversion training and the problem would begin to go away as Pilots are trained...and trainers are trained. Education is far more effective than legislation.
I do see the Five Hour checkout concept as being a bit short of what an inexperienced pilot might need to provide the actual time to waltz around the edges of the published performance envelope of a particular machine. No slam on groups of pilots but more a suggestion that mere hours and licenses do not define "experience" . It is the "experience" gained within those hours that counts. I would no more ride in the rear of an aircraft piloted by some of our most experienced "offshore" pilots for a mountain landing operation for example than I would let a crop sprayer take me out for a night winching op. Each would be out of his element. The conversion process should expose the learning pilot to the full performance parameters and peculiarities of the aircraft he is being transitioned onto.....or the training is incomplete and leaves the door open for such events as we read about.
I just finished a five hour factory course on an aircraft I used to instruct in.....and was exposed to a a unique tendency of this particular style of birdie that has led to some rather ugly outcomes.....and learned the correct method of countering that bit of "gotcha". Excellent training directed to all the necessary issues and given by a very knowledgeable instructor.....and will probably save my skin sometime in the future.
Instead of imposing restrictions as suggested by someone....the CAA might want to send some of its renown experts around to consult with the folks doing the training and ensure this interesting "butt biting" aspect of the Whistling Pig gets adequate treatment during conversion training and the problem would begin to go away as Pilots are trained...and trainers are trained. Education is far more effective than legislation.
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Mr Nosy
Just to complete the picture, the accident which prompted this thread was nothing to do with loss of yaw control.
SASless
It does look as though the poor chap got his approach badly wrong but he couldn't have had better training.
When he bought his Gazelle, he was checked out by a very experienced and respected instructor/examiner who is an ATPL, ex Army Air Corps and flies Gazelles in the TA (Army Reserve). And, the pilot had passed a currency check earlier on the morning of the crash.
I suspect it was just 'one of those things' which unfortunately happens now and again.
Just to complete the picture, the accident which prompted this thread was nothing to do with loss of yaw control.
SASless
It does look as though the poor chap got his approach badly wrong but he couldn't have had better training.
When he bought his Gazelle, he was checked out by a very experienced and respected instructor/examiner who is an ATPL, ex Army Air Corps and flies Gazelles in the TA (Army Reserve). And, the pilot had passed a currency check earlier on the morning of the crash.
I suspect it was just 'one of those things' which unfortunately happens now and again.
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Please read into this as you may. Owners of ex mil machines need to be aware of the five piont harness fitted to the front seats of these aircraft. With duals fitted and the harness left undone on the co-pilots seat and the box lock left forward of the seat close to the cyclic? need i say any more!!
I wonder if a statistical study would support my firmly held belief that line flying following a checkride is fraught with peril? No slam meant towards the poor fellow that had the onset of "extra strong gravity".....just it seems that evil things often happen shortly after a checkride of some sort. A Better Helicopter Company in the Gulf of Mexico had a rush of engine failures due to fuel contamination and at least one of the pilots involved found himself treading water while surrounded by smaller pieces of Bell bits.....the day after doing his "splashes" to the canal on his regular checkride. If currency and proficiency are supposed to be the key to successfully completing autorative landings to the sea....he should have been as ready as anyone but notwithstanding that....he still found himself nose deep in the Big Salty.
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GreenArrow -
Although common sense would dictate fastening the co-pilot's seatbelt when flying solo, is there anything in the FM / pilots notes concerning the possible dangers of flying with it unfastened?
If not, is it something that would be pointed out during the conversion?
Or is it so considered so blindingly obvious that it doesnt need pointing out?
Although common sense would dictate fastening the co-pilot's seatbelt when flying solo, is there anything in the FM / pilots notes concerning the possible dangers of flying with it unfastened?
If not, is it something that would be pointed out during the conversion?
Or is it so considered so blindingly obvious that it doesnt need pointing out?
Avoid imitations
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Can't comment on written warnings on the civvie Gazelle FM (and there should be no need) but if so I think it will be under the heading: "Basic Airmanship" along with such stuff as making sure there is fuel in the tanks, oil in the engine and all covers and blanks are removed etc.
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I did my conversion with Al Gwilt at MW Helicopters. He certainly covered that aspect but, even if he hadn't, securing unused harnesses is basic airmanship regardless of type. In a helicopter it's particularly important for obvious reasons.
That said, forgetting the obvious is easily done. My most embarrassing (to date) was when taking off from a friend's house in an R22 some years ago. Knowing the risk of being distracted by the group waiting for me to lift, I did my checks extra carefully. It was only as I cleared the trees at the end of their garden, and was about to tell Gatwick I'd lifted, that I noticed the heli was unusually noisy. I'd forgotten to put my headset on.
I'm sure there are pilots good enough to put a headset on whilst keeping an R22 the right way up, but I knew I wasn't one of them so it was quickly back to the lawn. :o
That said, forgetting the obvious is easily done. My most embarrassing (to date) was when taking off from a friend's house in an R22 some years ago. Knowing the risk of being distracted by the group waiting for me to lift, I did my checks extra carefully. It was only as I cleared the trees at the end of their garden, and was about to tell Gatwick I'd lifted, that I noticed the heli was unusually noisy. I'd forgotten to put my headset on.
I'm sure there are pilots good enough to put a headset on whilst keeping an R22 the right way up, but I knew I wasn't one of them so it was quickly back to the lawn. :o