Caught the boss at it- What to do?

[CH6]

I'm a fairly new-to-the game instructor who needs some advice- the details below will explain why I cannot be too specific about the circumstances.

Purely by chance picked up the wrong tech log to sign for a machine and noticed that the last flight which I had seen being made- a social jolly for the company owner and some mates had not been recorded.

Checking the machines flight time recorders it was fairly obvious that they had been disabled for the flight thereby saving the boss a whole heap of money. That machine is leased from another owner and most of the parts are not "on condition" items so it's far more than just a financial fiddle.

In the grand scheme of things the odd extra hour in the life of a component might not seem much but it's got me thinking.

I could do with a few hints on how to handle this - any thoughts?

Is this sort of thing common? Can't be the first time it's happened -what did you do?

I assume you want to remain anonymous and, for that reason, have removed two words which were likely to identify the school.
Heliport

[Grainger]

"... the odd extra hour ..."

Problem is, CH - is it just the odd extra hour or an accumulated extra 10% or 20% hours? Very unlikely IMHO that you happened to catch the one isolated incident.

Do you want to be the one flying the machine when some over-lifed component gives up the ghost ?

[misterbonkers]

Well, its rather a tricky one, I think u'd best suggest that maybe the Datcon is faulty and the engineer should have a look.

Or suggest that you think 'someone' is ripping off the company because the fuel levels are not consistent with the hours flown.

Machines are lifed for a reason!

[IHL]

CH6: First thing you should do is determine if the Boss is actually doing something illegal and unethical.
- Flight time recorders are not an airworthy item and therefore not required ; the company could be recording time by the old clock method.
- Maybe the boss honestly forgot to make an entry.

You could try pointing out ( in your best diplomatic form) to the boss that he forgot to put in an entry and see where that leads.

If the times are not entered then you are probably flying an aircraft that is not airworthy according to the law and you could possibly be held accountable if you knowingly continued to fly the aircraft.

No easy answer.

[SASless]

Being as how the young man is new....and rightly confronted with a valid concern.....my advice is to use guerrilla warfare. For one occurrrence....my counsel would be to zip thine lip....if you find over time that it is becoming a real problem.....go the backdoor route and note the discreapancies as suggested by a previous post. Confronting the Boss and even rightly suggesting he is diddling the pooch isn't a way to enhance one's career. Play the innocent until forced to form squares....then...fix bayonets...load double charges....aim squarely for the heart! Also...please to rememberl your Boss Wallah just might be a reader of PPRune.....this sure isn't the place to ask such questions....unless you like travelling to strange places and meeting new and different people. Helicopter management types are not the most forgiving nor enlightened of the species.

[BlenderPilot]

Maybe one day you . . .

will be the boss and will want to do this everyonce in a while.

To able to take a helicopter, fly around with friends and family, show them what is like every now and then is one of the great things about being a helicopter pilot, don't spoil it. If done very sporadically or in different helicopters, I really don't see much harm if its only a small time fraction.

There's not a single member of my close family or friends who hasn't flown w/me, and to all it has been something really memorable.

[3top]

Hi again,

BLender is right, partly..., it is nice to take a ride for fun sometimes, however if you are the boss and own the choppers, do you really NEED to unhook the hobbs or is it just greed?

THIS IS NOT TO SUGGEST, that just poor pilot-employes should do that!!!!

As mentioned, it is not legal, so if you accept (what I would do, if you want to keep your job....) the fact, do it quiet, make your "notes" in your memorybank and decide how much you will accept before "enough is enough". Then simple say, that you will not fly the helicopter any more, because matter of fact it is out of time.
Your boss will not fire you, as he would have to count on some legal problems if you talk. If other pilots in the company (find out veeeeeery carefully....) agree, your boss will stop this practise, as he will have to fly everything himself from there on.......if he is not in the office, most likely business will suffer........................but thatīs all longterm.

Be sure, non of the helicopter-companies built any machine with exact time frames, they will always give TBOīs with the worst possible operation in mind. Depending how YOUR operation runs, I guess (!!!!AND THIS IS IT: MY UNEDUCATED GUESS!!!!!!!) most helicopters should have a safety margine on their various times of at least 30% - PLEASE LET ME KNOW IF THIS IS NOT SO - ANYONE IN THE INDUSTRY? SOMEONE WHO KNOWīS BETTER!!!

PLEASE!! - NO ANSWER TO THIS, SHOULD NOT BE TAKEN AS AN "AGREED" TO MY OPINION!!!!

So, a little extra flying shouldnīt be an automatic death warrant (on the technical part - ....it is still illegal).

Personally I donīt agree with this practise, but I am afraid it is rather widespread practise - though I have no proof of this, either.

So, CH6, I say, donīt get caught doing it yourself, note the occasions and times if others do it, get the total summed up and decide when "enough is enough".



3top



.......Then it could still be: the boss forgot, the hobbs connection got loose, the hobbs switch got stuck (if it is on the collective....), they take the time by "wrist worn timepiece....",............donīt yell before you know, what you think you know!!!


to CH6:

Furthermore, I suggest that you kill "CH6" as soon as you are done with this thread. Get a different pprune-id.

I am not afraid that people find out about me, as I have a rather lose mouth anyway, and I say pretty much what I think about a certain "thread", and I stand up to it anyway (as on ocasion people do not on this forum.......anonymity is still a great thing to hide behind - you can sling mud a whole lot easier!!....no reference to you,CH6 - I believe THIS is a very serious issue and you are to be commended to bring it up! But those who surf "Rotorheads" regularly know what I mean....). However, you never know if someone identifies you.............

If you have more "sensitive" issues, change the name for each...and keep īem coming!!


3top

[CH6]

Thanks for the thoughts everyone- a variety of strategies to consider.

Sure, I can understand that the machine won't fall from the sky the instant it flies past the due inspection. As others point out, however, it's unlikely to be a one off.

The other, more worrying, aspect is the effect on the whole flying operation. Up to now I've always thought that I'd be honest and report a hot start or heavy landing. Now I might think twice.

I wouldn't be surprised if others had also noted the occasional "anomaly". Given this, will the engineers let someone know that they dropped a component or will they just hide it beneath a panel? Will my colleagues 'fess up to their overtorques?

I'll continue to ponder- and don't worry, CH6, is just a nom-de-keyboard for this post (and thanks moderator but those words you removed were included to throw the scent!)

Keep the thoughts coming

[Jed A1]

It’s wrong. There’s no two ways about it.

It’s fraud, it’s theft, it’s endangering lives, the list goes on.

I own and lease helicopters and although it is very tempting I will never do it. I have my integrity and I have to sleep at night.

What happens if the tail rotor gearbox is overtly getting towards the end of it’s life and it quits on a low time pilot, he stuffs it in and ends up hurting somebody. Is it now the time to blow the whistle and say, “well I knew he was at it!”

10%, 20% extra hours on a machine, no it’s not acceptable. To anyone, the pilot, passengers, students flying it, the present owner or the future owner. Aside from it being illegal.

Granted there may be a safety margin in component times but we don’t know what that is for. Harsh environments or demanding operations may reduce these safety margins dramatically. Manufacturers will never say, “oh sure go and fly an extra 200 hours, no harm will be done”

My suggestion to the owner is, that if he is that strapped for cash, go and break in to the helicopter owners house and steal a few hundred quid or dollars. At least he won’t be endangering peoples’ lives.

The negative effect on the whole operation (as mentioned above is) is one of the worst by products, “if the boss is at it, then I can do it too”. As professionals we should be striving to eradicate this nonsense from our business. We can and should make good honest livings without being thieves and liars.

Sure you have your job to think about but you also have your and others safety to think about. That is far more important in my opinion. If you can’t sort this situation out diplomatically as illustrated above, you have to think, do you want to fly in an operation like this. Do you want to be associated with people like this. If it ever gets public, your reputation (by association) in the industry could be tarnished too. I know several people who will not be hired in decent jobs because they were “suspected” of going along with scams like this.

I can’t for the life of me understand why people see the benefit in doing this. The risks far out weight the rewards.

[Randy_g]

Free rides

You give someone a 10 minute ride, and don't log it. Yes it's technically illegal, but what if that time still gets recorded ??

There are ways to fly for "free", but still log it. If you are using the old watch system, simply round up on the next couple of flights. Usually it means a minute or so to round it up to the next decimal. There are times when I've taken the customer heli-fishing (who here in Canada hasn't), and told him it was no charge. I picked a spot fairly close to the camp or town and kept a record of the starts, flights, and flight time. Over the next few days I've added a point 1 to each flight until everything in the logbook is square. All amounts are exactly as flown. However if we are talking hours, well then that is a different story.

Oh by the way, the Hobbs meter isn't that accurate. I recently found out (from a company AME) that there is enough voltage remaining in the wiring for the Hobbs meter to continue to run even with the battery turned off. On a recent cross-Canada flight the hobbs (which runs off the collective) was .2 hrs higher than what my watch read recording skids up to down. I use 2 timepieces when I fly, my own personal watch, and a stopwatch. Both timepieces were in agreement as to the time flown to a few seconds. When I shut off the master switch, I could still hear the Hobbs meter ticking over slowly.

Cheers

Randy_G

[3top]

TO Jed A1:

I am with you, it is wrong and definitely a shabby way to safe money on the expense of other peoples safety!

BUT ,if I where CH6, I would do what I posted, EXCEPT YOU are willing to give me a job. I donīt know how you got into the business, but for regular folk it is not a walk in the park, but still has a lot to do with luck (to find a place to start......).

As mentioned in my post, my personal opinions do not make this practise right, and I am against it.

Randy-g:
The way you go about has nothing to do with "Hobbs-fraude". As you said, at the end of the helos life the times match up.
Your hobbs may have a bad connection, ours work fine, they have V-range but do not run faster or slower with changing voltage, also the switch activating the hobbs might get stuck, ...

I guess on some cases it is fair practise. We are getting engaged in work sometimes where you have to stay overnight and/or have to brake out ground support. Some clients pay this seperate, others can not account for this special expenses, so they even tell us - just put on an hour more......
But that is not the point, - time on the machine that is not accounted for is!

CH-6: ALWAYS report ANY misshape you have, even if no one else does, if the company decides not to do anything about it is one thing, but it is off your back - you reported it. If you get fired for reporting a mishape, well, your next employer will appreciate your honesty. Normaly the worst that happens is a chew out by the boss if you could have avoided it.
If I ever should get in a position where I have to decide, I would fire a pilot who I find out hid a misshape!!!
I know what I am talking about - I got hit by covered up overlimits - blown engine on approach. Then I should have imagined that something will come sometime, as I flew with the owner of the Ranger once and he ignored redlines! I was aboard as a safetypilot so we just got to the redlines not past. But I have an idea how he "worked" without me.

With mechanics it is the same, some have the etics to īfess up if the destroy something, others put people in danger and cover up.
You will have to live with that, as it is impossible to hunt everyone down. Although if you can help eliminating the bad apples, do it! Doesnīt always have to be head on!!


3top

[Randy_g]

Hobbs

Your hobbs may have a bad connection, ours work fine, they have V-range but do not run faster or slower with changing voltage, also the switch activating the hobbs might get stuck, ...

3top just to clarfy, I wasn't referring to the hobbs running faster or slower due to voltage fluctuations. What I found out was that since the hobbs requires so little voltage to operate, it can continue to run with the residual voltage remaining in the wiring after the master battery switch is turned off. Since I was told this, I checked on a couple of our a/c and it seems to be true. I'm not talking a lot here, but in 20 hrs there was .2 difference. By the way, the higher time from the hobbs was what was entered in the logbook.

CH-6 I agree with 3top, you must report any over-temp, over-torque, or exceedance of any kind. Even if it is within the transient limits, you should still tell the AME. The transients are there for when we make a small error and need that little extra for landing. Transients are not regular working limits !!

Cheers

Randy_G

[3top]

Hey Randy-g:

I will check on that rest voltage on our hobbs meters.......
.2 in 20hrs is quite a lot over the life time of the machine - 1% of ours makes 22 hrs or about 9500.-$US !!

3top

[Albatros6]

Overtime...overstress

Hi everyone out there,

overtiming is one thing, overstressing the other. When some years ago two Bell Choppers separated the main rotor mast from the rest of the machine, following conclusion was made: as Bell intended the whole airframe to get once in half an hour stressed with full t/o power, sling operation counted 5 to 6 times (even within authorized load) for that, ageing the helicopter a little bit faster...

So much for the "worst load considered..."

g'day

[Randy_g]

3top, yeah it can have quite the impact on the old bottom line. Our hobbs are in our Bell mediums, so you can imagine the cost differences involved there. Ours are run off the 24V system, so I would think that the difference will be less if run off a 12V system like in the Robinson machinery. The amount of wiring will be significantly less as well, so there will be less wire to hold the voltage.


Albatros6 not quite sure what your post means.

as Bell intended the whole airframe to get once in half an hour stressed with full t/o power, sling operation counted 5 to 6 times (even within authorized load) for that, ageing the helicopter a little bit faster...

Are you saying that whoever investigated that accident figures that a Bell helicopter was not meant for repetitive lifts to max gross weight ?? There are significant numbers of helicopters all over this world that perform operations that put the a/c at max gross weight constantly, and those a/c don't have mast separations. I am not talking just internal, one time only loads. I am speaking of repetitive external loads (as many as 30-80+ per hour).

Cheers

Randy_G

[capt waffoo]

It's wrong, it's illegal and it's dangerous.

Call CHIRP. That way the problem gets addressed by someone else and you're not associated with the ensuing stink.

Failing that, get another job, which is wery simple to say but harder to do.

Ultimately, do you ant to work for someone who is so dishonestly unprofessional? Will you trust him to report a heavy landing or an exceedence of limitations if this is his attitude? Me, I wouldn't want to fly anything involved with such a crook, my neck's too valuable for that.

CHIRP the bastard and get a proper job.

[BlenderPilot]

Usually the ones that canīt

So there you go, here we have a perfect example of how pilots
minds work completely different ways between each other.

The ones that say Ļdonīt do itĻare usually the ones who are not in a position to do this things and they are just pissed they canīt so they say neither should you.

I say if you must do this, simply make up the time on future flights and thats it, in the real world it is done often.

[S76Heavy]

Blenderpilot, your version of "the real world" has nothing to do with mine. So don't pretend like you know that world.

In our company we don't exeed limits and keep quiet. Not only because exceedences are monitored, but also because we have a sense of responsibility to our fellow pilots.
If you decide to do things your way, fine. Let the rest of us do our jobs according to the rules.

[3top]

Hi S76,

maybe you are not (luckily...) in a position where you have to deal with such issues - Congratulations!!
Maybe you never had to fly or start out with a cheap outfit - Congratulations!!

Unfortunately in the "Real World" we have all kinds of operations and if you never had to deal with one, that had lower standards then the one you work for (what is it anyway? If it is like you say it would be an honor to be mentioned here...), lucky you, because I am afraid the majority is not at that level (.....though they should be, no question....)!
What BlenderP. mentioned sounds a lot like companies I know and worked for before........ I hear the same from other pilots in other companies too. Unfortunately not everyone has the fortune to be engaged by a clean outfit!!

You are right: Donīt risk your neck if you do not have to - but some of us will have to if we ever want to get somewhere near what you do!! If we hit it lucky!

Personal question: Where did you get your flight training? Military or private?

3top

[JAFCon]

Totally agree with Capt Waffoo, Chirp the Bastard, its illegal and it might cost someones life Report it and STOP IT NOW!!!!! because if it does cost someone's life can you live with yourself?